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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR)

 
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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 3:26:40 PM   
Klydon


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It is hindsight now, but I usually tried to build the longer lead time units (ships mostly) in the early days with limited production. I will take extra sealift/ships early because the production times for US ground troops/air is so much shorter than for the ships. That also means that even when the US declares in, it will be awhile before they can get their units into action, but when they do, they should be able to get more in and it should be a steady flow after that as long as their sealift remains intact. Even with this, it is even tougher from the standpoint of having "stuff" available since the US has had less time to build up for the start of the war.

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 931
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 3:41:36 PM   
composer99


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Before I forget, now that the US has the tension to pass War Appropriations, it should refrain from passing any new options, if at all possible, until then.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 3:44:35 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Before I forget, now that the US has the tension to pass War Appropriations, it should refrain from passing any new options, if at all possible, until then.

Agreed, particularly since it was the best chit that got moved.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 933
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 5:51:19 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

So if you have 6 sea lift units for the US, what 3 air and land units are you going to send to Europe and which 3 out into the Pacific? There will only be one trip for each TRS/AMPH per turn unless you dedicate an HQ to reorganize them during a turn. Even then you need to hope that the turn doesn't end before they can make the second round trip.

The other 6 sea lift units need to be built ASAP. You know, there might be losses when they start sailing around when the US is at war with all the Axis major powers. And if you expect to actually invade somewhere, the units doing the invading will not be bringing reinforcements across.

In both theaters of the war you will want to have strong land and air units: fighters and naval air for sea operations and fighters and bombers for land operations. The strategic bombers can rebase to the United Kingdom on their own, but all the other units will be looking for a boat to ride over on.

I'll try to answer your questions first, and that might create another "You did what!!!"

I already have 2 GARR in Dutch Harbor, a GARR and INF in Honolulu, with 2 NAV and the 2 wimpy FTRs I started with in the Pacific region. Using extended range, I managed to get a LND to Iceland by way of Greenland. At the moment, I have a some land units, mostly the starting ART divisions, but also 2 INF divisions and both starting HQ units on the East Coast, but can get any/all of them back to the West Coast before they are needed there. Eisenhower is in production, so I'll transfer one of those HQs back for certain. The MAR will almost certainly be a West Coast reinforcement.
-----
And now . . .

I don't mean to pick on you, Steve, but it's this kind of thinking that gets on my nerves a little. Only a year into the game the US may be in good position to prepare for war, but just because the USA can DOW earlier than usual does not mean that it has had the time to prepare for it, does it? The Gear Up didn't happen until M/A '40, so there were 3 turns at 11 BP, 1 turn at 21 BP, and 1 turn at 20 BP before now. That's only 74 BP for the first 5 turns.

I was told, quite clearly, that I needed to build a land unit or two per turn from the start -- even with the USA -- so there is a minimum of 3 BP dedicated to that. I was told that I needed to build out my USA CV fleet as soon as they become available, which means I also needed to build the CVP and Pilots that would go with them soon after that. Now I'm told that I should also have focused on building out my sealift. This begins the circle, though:

Without sealift, the land units can't go anywhere. Without land units, what good is the sealift?

Again, I'm willing to admit that I may be wrong about this, because the USA absolutely wants to have all of these units on the map when it goes to war . . . but that doesn't usually happen until late 1941, which gives the USA player 3-4 more turns (~120 more BP) to work with than I'm expecting to get (assuming an early to mid-1941 entry).

So, the real question might have to be: just because the USA can enter the war early, should it? or is the threat enough to strike fear into the heart of Japan?

Perhaps I'm not terrific at planning 3-4 turns ahead, but with a game that is advancing "faster than average", I feel that the expectations (and suggestions/demands) are being made based on the typical point in the game that these events occur, rather than when they are actually happening.
-----
I will pre-apologize for any hard feelings this post generates. Maybe it's just a newbie thing, but maybe I do have a point?

Building carrier air units and pilots can wait. While the US is at peace it should build units that take a long time to arrive. HQ, Para, and Marines on land. CV, AMPH, TRS, and Convoys at sea (all the naval units take a long time - getting them through their first cycle is what is important - gobs of them can then be built simultaneously once the US goes to war). One land based air unit of your choosing can be built per turn. Maybe one pilot every other turn. This will give you a lot of air units in reserve. You can built a zero cost carrier air unit if you are running low on BPs.

The quantity of carrier air units should be coordinated with the carriers so sufficient CVPs arrive when the CVs do. Obviously the same is true for pilots. This takes planning and some tedious calculations. Because a CVP takes 4 turns, a pilot takes 3 turns and a CV take 12 turns, there is no need to rush the CVPs and pilots into production. You can start worrying about them once the CV begin their second cycle.

Part of the reason for building land units and land based air units is what you have learned already: when they are build early, they can be transported/pre-positioned peacefully overseas.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 934
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 6:19:22 PM   
Centuur


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On the building strategy by the USA, I agree. However, a few INF or GAR should be build to defend Dutch Harbour, Pearl Harbour and of course Pago Pago (don't forget that place, it's important. I lost it once in a game in the Japanese surprise impulse and got in a lot of problems for it).

Somebody here suggests a surrender of China. I would at least suggest waiting until 1941. The chit value of 1941 is far better than the one for 1940. Winter is coming, and it just might be that the Chinese (with both Kunming and Sian still in Chinese hands) will survive until that time. And 3-4 entry chits (for a conquest of China) is really nice, if they are good ones. If they are lousy ones (and in 1940 that is a good possibility) it might not be enough to go to war in early 1941.
Also: the Chinese Communists are still good for a good fight around Sian. Imagine also a Chinese Communist reïnforcement appearing in Sining (is that a communist city?) and it than starts walking towards Lan Chow. If the Japanese don't have units capable of getting to Lan Chow before it arrives, the Communists are having a ball, recapturing the place and forcing another roll for US entry. Very, very nice indeed. I don't know if there is a real communist INF arriving, but if it is, put it there and go for it (if indeed the Japanese units are out of range). It's always nice to force the Japanese into all kind of things they don't want to do. If you put that INF around Sian, it probably won't do as much good as in Sining...



< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/9/2012 6:21:19 PM >


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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 6:37:48 PM   
Red Prince


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Here are the builds for the 1st 5 Turns made by the USA:

S/O '39: USA (11): 1 x TERR, 1 x GARR, 1 x CV(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x CV(Repair), 1 x Pilot
N/D '39: USA (11): 1 x INF Division, 1 x GARR, 1 x AMPH(1st), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x Pilot
J/F '40: USA (11): 1 x INF, 1 x GARR, 2 x CVP-1, 2 x Pilot
M/A '40: USA (21): 1 x MAR, 1 x HQ-A, 2 x CVP-1, 3 x Pilot
M/J '40: USA (20): 1 x MTN Division, 1 x MOT Division, 1 x AMPH(1st), 1 x FTR-2, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x NAV-3, 1 x SUB(2nd), 3 x Pilot

So, here's what we have:

1 x TERR . . . in Manila, so that I could evacuate the HQ there
3 x GARR . . . fortifying Honolulu and Dutch Harbor
1 x INF . . . fortifying Honolulu
10 x CVP . . . this may seem like a lot, but a few of my starting CVP dropped in Class when the year turned. I now have 6 CV Class-4 on-map, with 5 Class-4 CVP and 2 Class-2 CVP
10 x Pilot . . . this was for the CVP -- also, concerning the CVP and Pilots, there are more 2nd cycle CV still arriving on the (or about to arrive) on the spiral
2 x AMPH in their 1st cycle
1 x HQ-A (to arrive at the end of this year)
1 x INF Division . . . now available for SCS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MTN Division . . . soon to be available for SCS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MAR . . . about to be available for TRS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MOT Division . . . think it was the only available division that fit my price, and can be used with an INF Division to create a MOT Corps
1 x FTR-2 . . . for a reason I can't remember
1 x NAV-3 . . . for Atlantic Convoy protection (not to distant future)
1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

Did I do very badly? Or was this suitable?

Perhaps I focused too much on making sure my CVs were all filled to capacity. I suppose I could have left the CVP in the Reserve Pool and spent the BP for 1 Pilot per turn on a new TRS. That would have gotten me most of the extra sealift on its 1st cycle, I suppose.


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 936
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 6:46:42 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

On the building strategy by the USA, I agree. However, a few INF or GAR should be build to defend Dutch Harbour, Pearl Harbour and of course Pago Pago (don't forget that place, it's important. I lost it once in a game in the Japanese surprise impulse and got in a lot of problems for it).

Somebody here suggests a surrender of China. I would at least suggest waiting until 1941. The chit value of 1941 is far better than the one for 1940. Winter is coming, and it just might be that the Chinese (with both Kunming and Sian still in Chinese hands) will survive until that time. And 3-4 entry chits (for a conquest of China) is really nice, if they are good ones. If they are lousy ones (and in 1940 that is a good possibility) it might not be enough to go to war in early 1941.
Also: the Chinese Communists are still good for a good fight around Sian. Imagine also a Chinese Communist reïnforcement appearing in Sining (is that a communist city?) and it than starts walking towards Lan Chow. If the Japanese don't have units capable of getting to Lan Chow before it arrives, the Communists are having a ball, recapturing the place and forcing another roll for US entry. Very, very nice indeed. I don't know if there is a real communist INF arriving, but if it is, put it there and go for it (if indeed the Japanese units are out of range). It's always nice to force the Japanese into all kind of things they don't want to do. If you put that INF around Sian, it probably won't do as much good as in Sining...

If you look at Post #883 and #892 on Page 30, you'll see that the Japanese have a CAV still in Lanchow, though OOS, and that there are other units in the area that can reinforce it if the Communist Chinese put the 5-3 INF in position to make a move on it. I think it is a wiser choice to put it in Sian, swap the 4-1 and 5-1 GARR units, and either leave the MTN where it is or retreat it east one hex . . . probably leave it where it is. Under the 5-1 GARR in Post #892 is a 4-2 MIL. Given 2-3 impulses of good weather in S/O '40, Sian probably won't survive.

Kunming, on the other hand, might. There are 10 factors that can double to stacks of 16 and 4 or 12 and 8 by staying in the mountains and in the city. That means the Japanese need to create 2 very strong and/or risky attacks to get that city away from the Nationalists.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/9/2012 7:07:10 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 937
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:16:55 PM   
Orm


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Your builds seems nice enough. As long as you have an idea or a plan for what you need with the US.

I would have built some more ships. A couple of fast BB would have been nice to have on the production spiral. But I am sure many disagree with me on this.



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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 938
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:19:42 PM   
Orm


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quote:

1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

I suggest you relocate the US submarine fleet to the pacific as soon as possible. They will be much more useful threatening the convoy lines there.

I am sure that the US can find enough old battleships and cruisers to help the CW against Germany. Edit: If you do not have enough surface fleet for this I strongly suggest you begin to build more ships.

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/9/2012 7:20:33 PM >


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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 939
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:24:54 PM   
Orm


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I also suggest that you do not surrender China. If China is left in control of Kunming they might be able to build some units with lend lease assistance. China alive might also force Japan to make a land move or two when Japan would rather make a naval impulse.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:25:11 PM   
Red Prince


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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

I suggest you relocate the US submarine fleet to the pacific as soon as possible. They will be much more useful threatening the convoy lines there.

I am sure that the US can find enough old battleships and cruisers to help the CW against Germany. Edit: If you do not have enough surface fleet for this I strongly suggest you begin to build more ships.

Not including CVs, I think the USA has about 40-45 SCS on-map. Maybe 50.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 941
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:26:21 PM   
Red Prince


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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I also suggest that you do not surrender China. If China is left in control of Kunming they might be able to build some units with lend lease assistance. China alive might also force Japan to make a land move or two when Japan would rather make a naval impulse.

Japan diplomatically closed the Burma Road, and should soon be able to close it physically, too.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 942
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:31:47 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I also suggest that you do not surrender China. If China is left in control of Kunming they might be able to build some units with lend lease assistance. China alive might also force Japan to make a land move or two when Japan would rather make a naval impulse.

Japan diplomatically closed the Burma Road, and should soon be able to close it physically, too.

Yes. But I am not talking about the near future. It is hard to predict what will happen when 1944 arrives. Not to mention 1946 in your game. Plenty of time to open a leand lease route to China.

Edit: And each unit that is built in China by US is one less that needs to be transported to the front.

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/9/2012 7:33:05 PM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 7:34:03 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

I suggest you relocate the US submarine fleet to the pacific as soon as possible. They will be much more useful threatening the convoy lines there.

I am sure that the US can find enough old battleships and cruisers to help the CW against Germany. Edit: If you do not have enough surface fleet for this I strongly suggest you begin to build more ships.

Not including CVs, I think the USA has about 40-45 SCS on-map. Maybe 50.

So why do US need the submarines to guard convoy lines then?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 944
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:22:34 PM   
Centuur


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USA Sub's should go to the Pacific. My favorite base for them is Pago Pago, since that port is (apart from Manilla, where I wouldn't put any ships or Sub's because of the Japanese Surprise impulse) close to the South China Sea where the Japanese convoys transporting the oil are going to be. I would also suggest you move all CW/French sub's towards this area too, now the Med is closed for them.
You're builds by the USA are reasonable, especially since it is only 1940. Now, I would suggest transporting at least one INF type corps into Pago Pago.
Also: don't expect the USA of getting a surprise impulse against the Japanese. The thing I would do with the Allies is to keep the Chinese in play, until the USA have passed the War Appropriations Bill. At that point I would surrender the Chinese, if Kunming is the only factory city still under Chinese control, and the Commies haven't got an army left. If these both things occurs in J/F 1941, the USA gets 3-4 chits at that point. Those chits will mean the USA is capable of DoW'ing Japan (with a -2 modifier for a conquered China in place: 70 - 80% succes rate...). So Japan will need to DoW the USA in the first impulse of M/A 1941 (ready or not), if they are moving first. This is a very powerful thing to take into account.
Axis play should also be aimed at getting the Initiative marker back into a better position. So in the coming turns, if the initiative goes to the Axis, let the Allies play first...


< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/9/2012 8:23:18 PM >


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Peter

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Post #: 945
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:25:59 PM   
Red Prince


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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

I suggest you relocate the US submarine fleet to the pacific as soon as possible. They will be much more useful threatening the convoy lines there.

I am sure that the US can find enough old battleships and cruisers to help the CW against Germany. Edit: If you do not have enough surface fleet for this I strongly suggest you begin to build more ships.

Not including CVs, I think the USA has about 40-45 SCS on-map. Maybe 50.

So why do US need the submarines to guard convoy lines then?

Honest answer?

Because I moved them there in the 2nd turn and forgot about them.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 946
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:26:07 PM   
composer99


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A few comments on the US production:

(1) Normally the CVP production would be considered way too high. In 1939-1940 the US has garbage CVP (compared to what it gets later, and compared to the CVs it gets from 1941 on). However, given the accelerated US entry, it's possible the US will be in the war by mid-1941 at the latest. So, a higher-than-normal CVP production seems reasonable.

(2) Normally the US builds a few of its 1939-1940 BB. However, I think the overall consensus of the forum was that given an earlier US entry into the war, the US wanted the land & air units to make a splash somewhere shortly after entry. So the lighter-than-normal naval builds again seem reasonable.

(3) Army building is generally satisfactory, although particularly once War Appropriations is passed I would build more heavy units (MOT, ARM, MECH, artillery) and fewer light divisions.

(4) Longer-range NAV3 are best for hunting enemy ships in combination with long-range Allied FTR. If they're crappy, they can be front of the line to take the first loss ahead of the CVP. The US has 2 short-range NAV2 which begin in the Reserve Pool which are adequate for convoy defence. So I agree with NAV3 builds, just not for convoy defence (although an exception can be made for defending large trunk lines with 10+ cp like the critical North Atlantic route where a NAV in the high box is justifiable). It looks like that's what you've built the NAV3 for so far, so that's okay (as long as you build more).

(5) SUBs aren't good for convoy defence. Units which get ASW factors are what you need for convoy defence plus an old BB or two in case the SUB get frisky on the surface table. Send your SUB to the Pacific (hint: you can base naval units in Guam & the Philippines from the start of the game) to hunt Japanese convoys.

(6) AMPH take 4 turns to build each cycle. So you need to get some 2nd cycle AMPH going (it looks like you have one in the Construction Pool that you can finish now).

(7) Yes, I know the US only has 20-odd bp available, so it can't build everything at once.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 947
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:28:41 PM   
Red Prince


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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

USA Sub's should go to the Pacific. My favorite base for them is Pago Pago, since that port is (apart from Manilla, where I wouldn't put any ships or Sub's because of the Japanese Surprise impulse) close to the South China Sea where the Japanese convoys transporting the oil are going to be. I would also suggest you move all CW/French sub's towards this area too, now the Med is closed for them.
You're builds by the USA are reasonable, especially since it is only 1940. Now, I would suggest transporting at least one INF type corps into Pago Pago.
Also: don't expect the USA of getting a surprise impulse against the Japanese. The thing I would do with the Allies is to keep the Chinese in play, until the USA have passed the War Appropriations Bill. At that point I would surrender the Chinese, if Kunming is the only factory city still under Chinese control, and the Commies haven't got an army left. If these both things occurs in J/F 1941, the USA gets 3-4 chits at that point. Those chits will mean the USA is capable of DoW'ing Japan (with a -2 modifier for a conquered China in place: 70 - 80% succes rate...). So Japan will need to DoW the USA in the first impulse of M/A 1941 (ready or not), if they are moving first. This is a very powerful thing to take into account.
Axis play should also be aimed at getting the Initiative marker back into a better position. So in the coming turns, if the initiative goes to the Axis, let the Allies play first...


A few things about this:

Pago Pago cannot yet be reinforced. I can't remember which Option needs to be taken, but I haven't taken it yet, so no INF can go there.

Also, if China Surrenders, the USA doesn't get to draw 3-4 chits. That only happens if China is Conquered.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 948
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:39:46 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

USA Sub's should go to the Pacific. My favorite base for them is Pago Pago, since that port is (apart from Manilla, where I wouldn't put any ships or Sub's because of the Japanese Surprise impulse) close to the South China Sea where the Japanese convoys transporting the oil are going to be. I would also suggest you move all CW/French sub's towards this area too, now the Med is closed for them.
You're builds by the USA are reasonable, especially since it is only 1940. Now, I would suggest transporting at least one INF type corps into Pago Pago.
Also: don't expect the USA of getting a surprise impulse against the Japanese. The thing I would do with the Allies is to keep the Chinese in play, until the USA have passed the War Appropriations Bill. At that point I would surrender the Chinese, if Kunming is the only factory city still under Chinese control, and the Commies haven't got an army left. If these both things occurs in J/F 1941, the USA gets 3-4 chits at that point. Those chits will mean the USA is capable of DoW'ing Japan (with a -2 modifier for a conquered China in place: 70 - 80% succes rate...). So Japan will need to DoW the USA in the first impulse of M/A 1941 (ready or not), if they are moving first. This is a very powerful thing to take into account.
Axis play should also be aimed at getting the Initiative marker back into a better position. So in the coming turns, if the initiative goes to the Axis, let the Allies play first...


A few things about this:

Pago Pago cannot yet be reinforced. I can't remember which Option needs to be taken, but I haven't taken it yet, so no INF can go there.

Also, if China Surrenders, the USA doesn't get to draw 3-4 chits. That only happens if China is Conquered.

After checking RAW, you are right there. The USA gets 1 (and 80 % probably on 2 chits) if China surrenders. Since that's the case, forget about surrendering China at all (now that's probably the reason why in our group there was never a surrender, that is to say: apart from a total surrender of all nations on a side. Failed Morale Check. Oh, that's another great wargame...).
And that option regarding the reinforcement of the Pacific. Isn't it only for CW territory? Pago Pago is USA controlled...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 1/9/2012 8:47:32 PM >


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 949
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:42:37 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here are the builds for the 1st 5 Turns made by the USA:

S/O '39: USA (11): 1 x TERR, 1 x GARR, 1 x CV(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x CV(Repair), 1 x Pilot
N/D '39: USA (11): 1 x INF Division, 1 x GARR, 1 x AMPH(1st), 2 x CVP-1, 1 x Pilot
J/F '40: USA (11): 1 x INF, 1 x GARR, 2 x CVP-1, 2 x Pilot
M/A '40: USA (21): 1 x MAR, 1 x HQ-A, 2 x CVP-1, 3 x Pilot
M/J '40: USA (20): 1 x MTN Division, 1 x MOT Division, 1 x AMPH(1st), 1 x FTR-2, 1 x CVP-1, 1 x NAV-3, 1 x SUB(2nd), 3 x Pilot

So, here's what we have:

1 x TERR . . . in Manila, so that I could evacuate the HQ there
3 x GARR . . . fortifying Honolulu and Dutch Harbor
1 x INF . . . fortifying Honolulu
10 x CVP . . . this may seem like a lot, but a few of my starting CVP dropped in Class when the year turned. I now have 6 CV Class-4 on-map, with 5 Class-4 CVP and 2 Class-2 CVP
10 x Pilot . . . this was for the CVP -- also, concerning the CVP and Pilots, there are more 2nd cycle CV still arriving on the (or about to arrive) on the spiral
2 x AMPH in their 1st cycle
1 x HQ-A (to arrive at the end of this year)
1 x INF Division . . . now available for SCS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MTN Division . . . soon to be available for SCS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MAR . . . about to be available for TRS invasion on Surprise impulse
1 x MOT Division . . . think it was the only available division that fit my price, and can be used with an INF Division to create a MOT Corps
1 x FTR-2 . . . for a reason I can't remember
1 x NAV-3 . . . for Atlantic Convoy protection (not to distant future)
1 x SUB . . . to join the 3 I have already in Iceland, to counter Germany and support the CW pipelines

Did I do very badly? Or was this suitable?

Perhaps I focused too much on making sure my CVs were all filled to capacity. I suppose I could have left the CVP in the Reserve Pool and spent the BP for 1 Pilot per turn on a new TRS. That would have gotten me most of the extra sealift on its 1st cycle, I suppose.


In my opinion, ...

I would build none of the CVP-0, leaving them available for when you want to keep the gearing up for air units but want to spend your BPs on other stuff.

SUBs are very low priority for the US. I wouldn't build any until I saw a real need for them. They are only good for attacking convoys. That means they will mostly be used in the Pacific. They need to get within range of the Japanese pipelines which means they will need in-supply ports rather close to Japan/China. Building them early is pointless since they will just sit around and do nothing until the war starts and even then it will take time to develop ports to which they can deploy. Using SUBs for defense at sea doesn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps if you are defending against invasions.

You built way too many CVPs and pilots. The Japanese navy and air force should have a good hold on the sea areas within their sphere of influence when the war starts. Ideally they have a NAV supported by fighters (Japan has many really nice long range fighters) that will intimidate the Allies from venturing into the sea areas that Japan wants to defend. Japan also should have a significant fleet of carriers supported by other naval units of all sizes and descriptions. The US will not be able to go to war with Japan at sea until it can match those resources with comparable ones of its own.

That means the US has to built long range NAV and fighters. Because of all the fluff in those force pools you will want to build them out. Many of them will never see action and do not need pilots.

I would make much heavier expenditures on CVs, TRS, and AMPHs. They cost very little so 3 of them can be build each turn even when you only have 11 BPs available.

Strategic Bombers are nice to build for attacking Germany (forcing them to dedicate fighters to defend strategic targets). But building those requires a US Entry Option and each one is expensive. Sadly they must be delayed.

The Marines can do defensive duty until it is time to attack. The garrison isn't really worth the expenditures. You can even use HQ and Para units for defense. All 3 of these unit types take time to arrive. So it is good to build them in advance. After they are in production, I would start on building out the INF, which can be used to invade using TRS or split into divisions and transported overseas using fast cruisers.

If you like the Terr, I have no objections - I may or may not build it.

All those CVPs and pilots are doing nothing right now. Oh, perhaps they enabled the US to fit out their carriers with closer to perfection. But that could have been done much later.

One of my points here is that even if the US enters the war in 1940, it isn't going to be charging across the Pacific to take on Japan. If it does so with only a few units, Japan will destroyed the US forces piecemeal. The US has to assemble a very strong fleet that is supported by land and air units. The air bases and ports are the important hexes in the Pacific. The US has to either occupy them with land units or invade them to achieve the same result. Then it occupies them with land based air units to control the sea areas. None of that can be done willy-nilly. It requires a lot of advance planning, beginning with the production schedule while it is neutral.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 950
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:46:49 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
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From: Bangor, Maine, USA
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So far it sounds like my USA builds have been acceptable, which is reassuring given that I've probably completely screwed up the CW builds . . . or so it would seem (I can post those later). I still think Steve's point about having more TRS on the 1st cycle means I should have built 1 less Pilot per turn and used it on the TRS, but I didn't know at the time, so I'll forgive myself . . .

Here's the CW Production schedule from the start of the game:

S/O '39: CW (13): 3 x MIL, 2 x CV(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x NAV-3
N/D '39: CW (13): 3 x MIL, 3 x CVP-1, 2 x CV(2nd)
J/F '40: CW (19): 1 x HQ-I, 1 x GARR, 1 x TRS(1st), 1 x FTR-2 1 x LND-4, 1 x BB(Repair), 1 x Pilot
M/A '40: CW (19): 1 x INF, 1 x GARR, 1 x CV(1st), 2 x TRS(1st), 2 x FTR-2, 2 x Pilot
M/J '40: CW (19): 3 x TERR, 1 x AMPH(1st), 1 x FTR-3, 2 x CVP-1, 1 x CL(2nd), 1 x SUB(2nd), 2 x Pilot

So, here's what we have:

3 x TERR
6 x MIL
2 x GARR
1 x INF
1 x HQ-I
3 x CV (1st cycle)
2 x CV (2nd cycle)
3 x TRS (1st cycle)
1 x AMPH (1st cycle)
1 x BB (Repair)
1 x SUB (2nd cycle)
1 x CL (2nd cycle)
7 x CVP
1 x NAV-3
3 x FTR-2
1 x FTR-3
1 x LND-4
5 x Pilot

I can't even begin to try to tell you where everything is, and it should be easy enough to figure out when things are arriving.

My major problem here is that my CVs have never been filled up to capacity, and the randomly picked CVP never seem to be worthwhile. I'm going to need to start building more again, because the RAF has been almost as bad as the RN in combat. I have an extreme CVP shortage at the moment, and while I have some Pilots coming in, I'm going to need more and more as time goes on.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/9/2012 8:55:58 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 951
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:55:19 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I would make much heavier expenditures on CVs, TRS, and AMPHs. They cost very little so 3 of them can be build each turn even when you only have 11 BPs available.

At the start of the game, there are very few CVs available to build.

As for the rest, I built the GARR units because they were cheap and fit my BP requirements at the time. They were also quickly available to be deployed to places that were unlikely to be attacked -- unless left empty. Dutch Harbor is now safe pretty much for the rest of the game, with the 2 worst GARR units the USA will ever have, and the TRS were doing nothing else at the time. That's the way I figured it, anyway.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 952
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 8:56:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

So far it sounds like my USA builds have been acceptable, which is reassuring given that I've probably completely screwed u pthe CW builds . . . or so it would seem (I can post those later). I still think Steve's point about having more TRS on the 1st cycle means I should have built 1 less Pilot per turn and used it on the TRS, but I didn't know at the time, so I'll forgive myself . . .

Here's the CW Production schedule from the start of the game:

S/O '39: CW (13): 3 x MIL, 2 x CV(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x NAV-3
N/D '39: CW (13): 3 x MIL, 3 x CVP-1, 2 x CV(2nd)
J/F '40: CW (19): 1 x HQ-I, 1 x GARR, 1 x TRS(1st), 1 x FTR-2 1 x LND-4, 1 x BB(Repair), 1 x Pilot
M/A '40: CW (19): 1 x INF, 1 x GARR, 1 x CV(1st), 2 x TRS(1st), 2 x FTR-2, 2 x Pilot
M/J '40: CW (19): 3 x TERR, 1 x AMPH(1st), 1 x FTR-3, 2 x CVP-1, 1 x CL(2nd), 1 x SUB(2nd), 2 x Pilot

So, here's what we have:

3 x TERR
6 x MIL
2 x GARR
1 x INF
1 x HQ-I
3 x CV (1st cycle)
2 x CV (2nd cycle)
3 x TRS (1st cycle)
1 x AMPH (1st cycle)
1 x BB (Repair)
1 x SUB (2nd cycle)
1 x CL (2nd cycle)
7 x CVP
1 x NAV-3
3 x FTR-2
1 x FTR-3
1 x LND-4
5 x Pilot

I can't even begin to try to tell you where everything is, and it should be easy enough to figure out when things are arriving.

My major problem here is that my CVs have never been filled up to capacity, and the randomly picked CVP never seem to be worthwhile. I'm going to need to start building more again, because the RAF has been almost as bad as the RN in combat. I have an extreme CVP shortage at the moment, and while I have some Pilots coming in, I'm going to need more and more as time goes on.

Count your current on map carriers. Assume they are filled to capacity. Now hypothesize they are in a sea area where Japan has NAV (2) and fighter (2) cover. Japan then moves its fleet, with all its carriers into the sea area. What does the air-to-air combat look like? What do the naval bombing forces for each side look like? My guess is that Japan will have an awesome advantage and could eliminate every one of the US carriers in one or two rounds of combat.

That is what the US has to plan for. Those carrier battles can be emotionally exhausting for all concerned - look what happened at Midway where Japan had a 5:2 advantage in carriers.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 953
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:07:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

I would make much heavier expenditures on CVs, TRS, and AMPHs. They cost very little so 3 of them can be build each turn even when you only have 11 BPs available.

At the start of the game, there are very few CVs available to build.

As for the rest, I built the GARR units because they were cheap and fit my BP requirements at the time. They were also quickly available to be deployed to places that were unlikely to be attacked -- unless left empty. Dutch Harbor is now safe pretty much for the rest of the game, with the 2 worst GARR units the USA will ever have, and the TRS were doing nothing else at the time. That's the way I figured it, anyway.

You're right, I hadn't remembered that. There is 1 CV and 3 AMPH/TRS that can be started in 1939. Some more of the latter are available in 1940, but no additional CVs. I would built the CVs ahead once the BP numbers permit. If you don't start building them until 1941, they won't arrive until 1943. That will leave the Japanese a lot of time to take control of SE Asia and the Pacific.

The real problem here is that Japan is rolling over China quickly and taking extremely few losses while doing so. It is much easier for Japan to fight one major power at a time. When it has to deal with both a land and naval major power (one of each) things get really hard every impulse, and every turn.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 954
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:10:31 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
Checking RAW at Pago Pago, I've come to the conclusion that you can reinforce it. It is not CW territory, but US territory. And there aren't any restrictions there (or am I mistaken), only regarding Guam and the Phillippines...?

Steve: you're missing out of the fact that there is only 1 USA MAR corps in the forcepool in 1940 (isn't it?). So the USA can't build a lot of MAR to defend. It's got two HQ's and a MAR maximum to defend three important hexes, which should be defended with at least 2 corps minimum IMHO. Now, others might disagree, but the one thing I don't want to happen is to lose any of those three objective hexes to the Japanese, if the Axis is going to get really aggressive in early war. Don't forget: it's 1940, so there aren't a large number of build point available to the USA until now.

Yes, he should have build the MAR (and not the two divisions) and he should probably have build the AMPH and TRS in stead to those CVP. But FTR and NAV? In 1940? No, those would come in my scedule in early 1941, not 1940. They take two turns to build and I don't expect the USA to be in the war before J/A 1941 in a normal game, wouldn't I? Also: bare in mind that the same thing is going on on the Japanese side. How much NAV and long range FTR do they have on the board by now? 3, 4 at the most?
Sure, there are things that he could have done better, but being able to give the CV's the planes they need in a Pacific theater where at this point the CV's are probably the only air forces in play on both sides isn't that bad....


_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 955
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:18:32 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
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From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
Pago Pago can be reinforced from the start of the game.

The US begins with 1 CV in the force pool, 1 in Construction pool (the USS Langley which is a CV in cost but a CVL in quality), and 1 in the Repair pool, if memory serves.

The US begins with 5 CV on the map, so if it builds out all CV right away and, when interning the Bearn, keeps it as a CV, could end up with 7 class-4 CV, 1 class-2 CV and 1 class-1 CV on the map by the end of 1941. I don't think the US gains much with the Bearn and Langley on the map.

It does not get any more CV until the 1941 force pool is added, when it gets 5 class-5 CV and 5 class-1 CVL. So Red Prince's CV production programme is IMO up to snuff so far.


On the other hand, there are still too many CV getting built IMO for the CW. A CV costs 4 to 5 bp and takes 2 years. A FTR or NAV takes 2-3 turns for the same price (or cheaper if you have spare pilots). Also, while the US is remote from all theatres of war, has very strong CVs, and has good CVP-to-CV matchup, the CW is very close to the principal European & Mediterranean theatres of action, has middling CVs, and most importantly has a very poor CVP-to-CV matchup.

So I strongly recommend a moratorium on all future CW CV builds. The CW should probably be a bit heavy on the CVP builds early because from 1941 on its CVP are often too "big" for the CVs so that seems about right.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 956
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:21:08 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

Checking RAW at Pago Pago, I've come to the conclusion that you can reinforce it. It is not CW territory, but US territory. And there aren't any restrictions there (or am I mistaken), only regarding Guam and the Phillippines...?

Only restriction to reinforce Pago Pago has already been played in this game so US should relocate some units there soon.

Until you choose relocate fleet to Pearl Harbor the only naval units that may base at Honolulu or Pago Pago are TRSs and CONVs. After you have chosen it, any US naval unit can base there.

< Message edited by Orm -- 1/9/2012 9:47:49 PM >


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Post #: 957
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:26:04 PM   
Rijssiej


Posts: 22
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

I would make much heavier expenditures on CVs, TRS, and AMPHs. They cost very little so 3 of them can be build each turn even when you only have 11 BPs available.

At the start of the game, there are very few CVs available to build.

As for the rest, I built the GARR units because they were cheap and fit my BP requirements at the time. They were also quickly available to be deployed to places that were unlikely to be attacked -- unless left empty. Dutch Harbor is now safe pretty much for the rest of the game, with the 2 worst GARR units the USA will ever have, and the TRS were doing nothing else at the time. That's the way I figured it, anyway.

You're right, I hadn't remembered that. There is 1 CV and 3 AMPH/TRS that can be started in 1939. Some more of the latter are available in 1940, but no additional CVs. I would built the CVs ahead once the BP numbers permit. If you don't start building them until 1941, they won't arrive until 1943. That will leave the Japanese a lot of time to take control of SE Asia and the Pacific.

The real problem here is that Japan is rolling over China quickly and taking extremely few losses while doing so. It is much easier for Japan to fight one major power at a time. When it has to deal with both a land and naval major power (one of each) things get really hard every impulse, and every turn.


You need an option to advance build.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 958
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:32:52 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

So far it sounds like my USA builds have been acceptable, which is reassuring given that I've probably completely screwed u pthe CW builds . . . or so it would seem (I can post those later). I still think Steve's point about having more TRS on the 1st cycle means I should have built 1 less Pilot per turn and used it on the TRS, but I didn't know at the time, so I'll forgive myself . . .

Here's the CW Production schedule from the start of the game:

S/O '39: CW (13): 3 x MIL, 2 x CV(1st), 2 x CVP-0, 1 x NAV-3
N/D '39: CW (13): 3 x MIL, 3 x CVP-1, 2 x CV(2nd)
J/F '40: CW (19): 1 x HQ-I, 1 x GARR, 1 x TRS(1st), 1 x FTR-2 1 x LND-4, 1 x BB(Repair), 1 x Pilot
M/A '40: CW (19): 1 x INF, 1 x GARR, 1 x CV(1st), 2 x TRS(1st), 2 x FTR-2, 2 x Pilot
M/J '40: CW (19): 3 x TERR, 1 x AMPH(1st), 1 x FTR-3, 2 x CVP-1, 1 x CL(2nd), 1 x SUB(2nd), 2 x Pilot

So, here's what we have:

3 x TERR
6 x MIL
2 x GARR
1 x INF
1 x HQ-I
3 x CV (1st cycle)
2 x CV (2nd cycle)
3 x TRS (1st cycle)
1 x AMPH (1st cycle)
1 x BB (Repair)
1 x SUB (2nd cycle)
1 x CL (2nd cycle)
7 x CVP
1 x NAV-3
3 x FTR-2
1 x FTR-3
1 x LND-4
5 x Pilot

I can't even begin to try to tell you where everything is, and it should be easy enough to figure out when things are arriving.

My major problem here is that my CVs have never been filled up to capacity, and the randomly picked CVP never seem to be worthwhile. I'm going to need to start building more again, because the RAF has been almost as bad as the RN in combat. I have an extreme CVP shortage at the moment, and while I have some Pilots coming in, I'm going to need more and more as time goes on.

Count your current on map carriers. Assume they are filled to capacity. Now hypothesize they are in a sea area where Japan has NAV (2) and fighter (2) cover. Japan then moves its fleet, with all its carriers into the sea area. What does the air-to-air combat look like? What do the naval bombing forces for each side look like? My guess is that Japan will have an awesome advantage and could eliminate every one of the US carriers in one or two rounds of combat.

That is what the US has to plan for. Those carrier battles can be emotionally exhausting for all concerned - look what happened at Midway where Japan had a 5:2 advantage in carriers.

This is what is currently on the map for these two nations, thought Japan has a CV Class-4 coming in at the start of each of the next 2 turns (The USA actually has better long-range FTR power, because I forgot to scrap the 2 worst FTR for Japan at the start of the game):




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 959
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/9/2012 9:34:02 PM   
Red Prince


Posts: 3686
Joined: 4/8/2011
From: Bangor, Maine, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

Checking RAW at Pago Pago, I've come to the conclusion that you can reinforce it. It is not CW territory, but US territory. And there aren't any restrictions there (or am I mistaken), only regarding Guam and the Phillippines...?

Only restriction to reinforce Pago Pago has already been played in this game so US should relocate some un its there soon.

Until you choose relocate fleet to Pearl Harbor the only naval units that may base at Honolulu or Pago Pago are TRSs and CONVs. After you have chosen it, any US naval unit can base there.

I knew there was something about this somewhere . . . didn't realize it was Pearl or I would have started relocating there before now. Right! I'm on it.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

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Post #: 960
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