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RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 8:41:22 PM   
Red Prince


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I'll look into the possibilities. I do have HQ and TRS to spare for the USA/CW. It's just a matter of seeing if I can get them to the right places all at once. It might be possible around the 3rd and 4th Allied Impulses

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Post #: 1951
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 9:44:15 PM   
composer99


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One thing to note is that if carried out, this invasion is not meant to be a permanent, strategic invasion of Europe, unless of course the Germans ignore it.

Once the Germans start sending over real units, ideally the Allies will have ports to fall back on to evacuate their good units, leaving Brazilians & US MIL units (they may have a use after all!) as a rearguard/nuisance - while invading somewhere else to start it all over again.

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Post #: 1952
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 10:03:34 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's the cleaner image. You can see that the Russians are going to have a lot of ZOCs to deal with in trying to pull back. It can be done, though . . . sort of. The 2 isolated units northwest of Bryansk should even be able to pull back a hex without getting disorganized.

As the Germans, I decided to let some of my army catch up in the North. To make this work, I had to create as many ZOC situations as I could. If the Russians really wanted to try it, they could probably take out a few of the units that have pushed forward as bait. Some are even very good units, but they would require at least 2 stacks to kill. If the Russians stick that much of there force in a single place to make an attack, it can only help Germany get through the lines.

Something to note: the Southern Front is going to have a 9-5 ARM and a 9-5 MECH rushing in to reinforce it in 2 impulses.

While it isn't on this map below, I think the attack in Persia was worthwhile. If I waited an impulse, the Soviets would have a unit in each of the 5 hexes, and this was the best attack I was going to be able to get, since all but one of those hexes can only be attacked from a single hexside. Now the Russians have to abandon Tabriz if they want a contiguous line, and they will no longer have the luxury of having a full line that can be attacked from only 1 hexside each.




Please tell me that you haven't made your rail moves yet.

Yeremenko (near Moscow) rails to Krasnodar; he is joined by the Para via air transport. The 40th Garr moves into Novorossiysk. This limits the Germans to 1 hex from which to attack (for the moment). 16:5 or 16:11 in a city.

The units in Rostov stay there.

The Dnep. Mil rails to Stavropol. He defends the Caucasus. Hopefully the remnants of the defenders on the Kerch straits will be able to join him.

The 1st Mot Div and the 3-2 in Stalino die there alone.

Going to the north, ...
The Gorki Mil dies in Talinin.

The 51st Inf and Moscow Mil move to the hex SW of Moscow (they can only be attacked from 1 hex). Next impulse they retreat into Moscow.

The 2nd Siberian and 2nd Mech move 2 hexes SE (they will only be attackable from 1 hex). The Kiev Mil moves one hex east (disorganizes) and the the 4th Siberian moves 1 hex SE (stays organized). The 4th GD Div moves into Vitebsk. The 39th Inf move to the hex west of Vitebsk.

The 2nd Mot moves to the hex east of Gomel and is joined by the 3rd Mech.

The Stalino Mil moves 1 hex west. He is going to die there but he interferes with the Axis movement.

The 4th Mech and 13th Mech move NE. The 2nd Armor joins them (14 factors).

The 1st Armor moves to the hex NW of Kharkov. It is joined by the 8-5 GD Mech (15 factors).

The AA moves 2 hexes NW. Its purpose is to prevent the Germans from charging through the hole in the line. The Germans do not have units capable of attacking him there on the blitz table.

Timoshenko moves into Kharkov and Koniev moves into the hex where Timoshenko was sitting.

The goal here it to sacrifice 6 weak units and escape with the best units through the center of the line. The HQ's are too far forward here but there is nothing to be done about that.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1953
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 11:25:41 PM   
Red Prince


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Don't worry. I got tired and haven't even chosen my Actions yet for the impulse, Steve. Too much to think about, and a lot of thoughts to consider from others.
quote:

The 2nd Siberian and 2nd Mech move 2 hexes SE (they will only be attackable from 1 hex). The Kiev Mil moves one hex east (disorganizes) and the the 4th Siberian moves 1 hex SE (stays organized). The 4th GD Div moves into Vitebsk. The 39th Inf move to the hex west of Vitebsk.
Isn't Vitebsk already behind the Germans? Do you mean Bryansk? Kursk?

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/31/2012 11:28:44 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1954
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 11:45:55 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Use the Mexicans for garrison duty in the Pacific and send the Brazilians to Senagal to begin the build-up for the Moroccan campaign.

Instead of invading around Bordeaux I would invade at La Rochelle (where the Yugo cavalry is); you face at best a 3-factor defence (CAV + 1-factor notional). Or invade south of it to face a 2-factor notional only.

Then work to isolate the coastal sector from Bordeaux to Bilbao and mop up any OOS defenders.

That ought to get the Germans' attention.

Also, this is a stronger play than expanding the Danish beachhead (although you should do that as time & units permit) because it's areas that are good defence for the Allies (who can keep supply easily by sea and bring reinforcements from UK & US) and force a very strong commitment from the Axis.

Unless Senegal is conquered, the Brazillians can't go there without FTC and since there is no Brazillian HQ....

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Paul

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Post #: 1955
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 11:49:27 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

The Allies desperately need the first move next turn. If not, the CW risks having 2 of its TRS trapped in India . . . unless they can dislodge the Japanese fleet that is going to try to take the Arabian Sea. The Americans have Battleships and CVs on the way, but they won't be able to reach a high sea box next turn.

This is not a huge problem, as you can take a naval with the US or CW and put something in the sea zone which instantly puts all the rest in supply.


Unless it is killed in an interception by the Japanese . . .

Idealy you use one in a port already in the sea zone. So it flips - BFD, it still provides supply for the other units. The JP can't search until after the Allies are done searching (and moving). Now if the JP fleet is so superior, you risk a lot just venturing out, than the units in question shouldn't have RTB'd there in the first place.

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Paul

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Post #: 1956
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 11:55:00 PM   
Red Prince


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I was too brain-tired to try to set anything up for the Allies, so I did some brainless work instead, searching through my notes to see if the die rolls were evening out over the course of the game. So, through the first impulse of Turn #12, here's what I found:

I recorded 476 die rollls on a 1 D10, and they averaged out to 5.655, which is 0.155 over what you would expect (5.5)
I recorded 58 die rolls on a 2D10, and they averaged out to 11.07, which is almost dead on what you would expect (10.5)
I recorded 75 Fractional Odds rolls, and they averaged out to .503, which is again very close to what you would expect (.4995)
There were 47 weather rolls, and not including the modifiers, the average wearther roll was 5.68, which is again, just over the average (5.5)

What this tells me is that while the rolls do average out over the course of a game, "luck" can be defined by how often a particular roll shows up when it actually matters. The dice (simulator) has no idea if the attack or search roll matters. That's an emotional response we place on the needs of the moment. And, in this game, the luck has been favoring the Axis, I suppose, to a fairly large extent. Early on it was favoring the Allies in terms of USE chits drawn. The more active a side is, the more "luck" it is bound to see, I expect.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 1/31/2012 11:59:32 PM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1957
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 11:57:47 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

USA adds Brzilian, Mexican and Panamanian units to its Force Pools

Since US still has plenty of units to build I think it was to early to add these units to the Force Pool.

I would never add them and consider this a bad mistake (although understandable for a noob). This is even more true for a build startegy like the US has used in this game, which does not concentrate on sea lift. You're going to move the US units first and even when/if you are built out in TRS and Amphs, it's difficult to divert any to move these practically useless units. You will rue this decision every time you build one of these poor units while good US Mech, Mot and Inf sits in the force pool.

Don't forget to "harvest" their pilots. They do a lot better flying US planes that can cooperate with the CW and FF than flying lower range, lower combat factor planes that cannot. The same cooperation issue applies to their land forces and thus makes them an impediment. They can't go to the home country of another allied major power, nor to any aligned (by any ally, including the US) minor. (You harvest them by taking the at-start plane off from a home city of theirs and increasing the US pilot marker by one. Then in a subsequent turn, they man a US plane.)

Occasionally you can use at-start Mexicans to garrison places in the Pacific (if on anti-partisan duty in Japan, you are doing real well). And occasionally you can put at start Brazillians in Italy (but usually not because they can't stack with CW units).

I don't think it's really a mistake. There are no current units from any of these countries in the Force Pools, and there are exactly 2 x FTR-2 popping up in 1942, when the USA will have 68 BP to spend each turn, and 2 x MECH to arrive in 1943, when they'll have 79 BP to spend per turn. I think that over those 2 years, they can probably afford the "lost" 18 BP by building these units. That is just about 2% of the 12-turn total expected BP produced. That isn't really a big deal.

We may differ on the impact but it really is a mistake. The BPs spent when you draw them are basically a complete waste. Saying you have a surfeit of BPs is a poor rationale indeed. The wondeful thing (and the curse) about the US is that there's always good stuff to build. Plus by '43 you'll want an O-chit every turn so you can get the stuff to where it needs to go. (Super - Combined)

Would you ever do it again after considering the downsides (and lack of any upside except a few pilots, Edit: which you normally get anyway when going to war at the usual time in '42)?



< Message edited by paulderynck -- 1/31/2012 11:59:07 PM >


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Post #: 1958
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 1/31/2012 11:58:14 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

The Allies desperately need the first move next turn. If not, the CW risks having 2 of its TRS trapped in India . . . unless they can dislodge the Japanese fleet that is going to try to take the Arabian Sea. The Americans have Battleships and CVs on the way, but they won't be able to reach a high sea box next turn.

This is not a huge problem, as you can take a naval with the US or CW and put something in the sea zone which instantly puts all the rest in supply.


Unless it is killed in an interception by the Japanese . . .

Idealy you use one in a port already in the sea zone. So it flips - BFD, it still provides supply for the other units. The JP can't search until after the Allies are done searching (and moving). Now if the JP fleet is so superior, you risk a lot just venturing out, than the units in question shouldn't have RTB'd there in the first place.

I missed a step, forgetting that you don't have to fight and can simply stop in the sea area . . . you're right.

As to the ships returning to that particular port, perhaps they should have returned to Bombay instead, since it was the only other Major Port within good striking distance. Truth be known, I was just so used to using Aden as a base of operations that I didn't think about it.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1959
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:01:28 AM   
paulderynck


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Vulnerability-wise they are equal. It is only the supply consideration that favors Bombay.

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Paul

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Post #: 1960
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:15:00 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Don't worry. I got tired and haven't even chosen my Actions yet for the impulse, Steve. Too much to think about, and a lot of thoughts to consider from others.
quote:

The 2nd Siberian and 2nd Mech move 2 hexes SE (they will only be attackable from 1 hex). The Kiev Mil moves one hex east (disorganizes) and the the 4th Siberian moves 1 hex SE (stays organized). The 4th GD Div moves into Vitebsk. The 39th Inf move to the hex west of Vitebsk.
Isn't Vitebsk already behind the Germans? Do you mean Bryansk? Kursk?

Bryansk.

Maybe the USSR should take a naval?

What I think this will look like (I did this all in my head) is that there will be two strong flanks to let the mobile units in the center pull back next impulse. Ideally, everyone that is still alive can then get behind the Don, holding every other hex. Some poor slob (probably the 4-3 in Vologda goes to Yaroslavl, two units go into Moscow and everyone else flees across the Don.

The Germans have a lot of good attacks but not much armor/mech in the south. That will limit how much damage they can do down there. In the north they also have to choose which dessert to slurp up, but I don't believe they can gobble them all in 1 impulse.

I won't go into my expectations for the next USSR impulse beyond that. But I do have some things in mind.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1961
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:18:15 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I was too brain-tired to try to set anything up for the Allies, so I did some brainless work instead, searching through my notes to see if the die rolls were evening out over the course of the game. So, through the first impulse of Turn #12, here's what I found:

I recorded 476 die rollls on a 1 D10, and they averaged out to 5.655, which is 0.155 over what you would expect (5.5)
I recorded 58 die rolls on a 2D10, and they averaged out to 11.07, which is almost dead on what you would expect (10.5)
I recorded 75 Fractional Odds rolls, and they averaged out to .503, which is again very close to what you would expect (.4995)
There were 47 weather rolls, and not including the modifiers, the average wearther roll was 5.68, which is again, just over the average (5.5)

What this tells me is that while the rolls do average out over the course of a game, "luck" can be defined by how often a particular roll shows up when it actually matters. The dice (simulator) has no idea if the attack or search roll matters. That's an emotional response we place on the needs of the moment. And, in this game, the luck has been favoring the Axis, I suppose, to a fairly large extent. Early on it was favoring the Allies in terms of USE chits drawn. The more active a side is, the more "luck" it is bound to see, I expect.

Thank you. I was getting nervous seeing all those high numbers.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1962
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:25:43 AM   
Taxman66


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Since you are playing to 1948 (not sure how the victory points work out with all that extended time), all you need to do is make sure the USSR survives with as many factories saved as possible and as much of her army as feasable. It may not be time just yet, but Hero-city and withdraw to the Urals doesn't look far off (perhaps with a detachment around Archangel as well.

With the USA production as it is, I would also consider starting to plop down a couple of B-17/B-24s a turn. They don't need sea lift to get Europe and can hit lots and lots of targets (e.g. Factory in Madrid, and provide very long range TAC support). Would've been better off with them than those lousy B-25Cs you built earlier.

Yes I know you can't build everything all at once. Right now saving the USSR from conquest is job 1. Job 2 is restoring the convoy pipeline and keeping it safe. Job 3 is keeping India from getting overrun. Everything else is gravy. Repeat: gravy.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1963
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:42:27 AM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

USA adds Brzilian, Mexican and Panamanian units to its Force Pools

Since US still has plenty of units to build I think it was to early to add these units to the Force Pool.

I would never add them and consider this a bad mistake (although understandable for a noob). This is even more true for a build startegy like the US has used in this game, which does not concentrate on sea lift. You're going to move the US units first and even when/if you are built out in TRS and Amphs, it's difficult to divert any to move these practically useless units. You will rue this decision every time you build one of these poor units while good US Mech, Mot and Inf sits in the force pool.

Don't forget to "harvest" their pilots. They do a lot better flying US planes that can cooperate with the CW and FF than flying lower range, lower combat factor planes that cannot. The same cooperation issue applies to their land forces and thus makes them an impediment. They can't go to the home country of another allied major power, nor to any aligned (by any ally, including the US) minor. (You harvest them by taking the at-start plane off from a home city of theirs and increasing the US pilot marker by one. Then in a subsequent turn, they man a US plane.)

Occasionally you can use at-start Mexicans to garrison places in the Pacific (if on anti-partisan duty in Japan, you are doing real well). And occasionally you can put at start Brazillians in Italy (but usually not because they can't stack with CW units).

I don't think it's really a mistake. There are no current units from any of these countries in the Force Pools, and there are exactly 2 x FTR-2 popping up in 1942, when the USA will have 68 BP to spend each turn, and 2 x MECH to arrive in 1943, when they'll have 79 BP to spend per turn. I think that over those 2 years, they can probably afford the "lost" 18 BP by building these units. That is just about 2% of the 12-turn total expected BP produced. That isn't really a big deal.

We may differ on the impact but it really is a mistake. The BPs spent when you draw them are basically a complete waste. Saying you have a surfeit of BPs is a poor rationale indeed. The wondeful thing (and the curse) about the US is that there's always good stuff to build. Plus by '43 you'll want an O-chit every turn so you can get the stuff to where it needs to go. (Super - Combined)

Would you ever do it again after considering the downsides (and lack of any upside except a few pilots, Edit: which you normally get anyway when going to war at the usual time in '42)?

There are currently 145 BP of land units in the Force Pool, 60 BP in 1st cycle naval units, and 88 BP in air units, which could use as many as 86 BP in Pilots, though about half that would actually be needed. That's 293 BP (not including Pilots). Add in 44 BP from the Repair Pool, including CW and French units, and you've got 337 BP of units. That's for 1941, and doesn't include Build Ahead units. The last 3 turns of this year, the USA will produce 168 BP.

Next year, 1942, 54 BP of land units, 45 BP of new 1st cycle naval units, and 104 BP of air units will be added. Throw in 122 BP of 2nd cycle naval units, and you get 325 more BP worth of units to spend to build everything. (Yes, I know there will be destroyed units to rebuild . . . this is just a simple assessment of how important those 18 BP actually are). Over the course of this year, the USA will produce 408 BP.

In 1943, 74 more BP of land units, another 60 BP of 1st cycle naval units, 123 BP of air units, and 89 BP of 2nd cycle naval units are added to the Force Pool. That's 346 BP. For 1943, the USA will produce 474 BP.

So, over the course of 15 turns, not including Pilots and assuming I completely build out all possible naval units, there are 1,008 BP of units to spend on. Over that same time-frame, the USA will have 1,050 BP to spend. If I want to build a Pilot for 2/3 of the aircraft, that brings the total to about 1,200 vs 1,050 BP. The fact is, there are a number of units I'm going to want to scrap rather than build, or I'm going to want to replace obsolete aircraft with the best available.

What I'm saying, is that during the stretch when these 4 units become available, the total cost of building them amounts to a single O-chit and an INF, assuming I give the FTRs each a Pilot. If I don't, it costs less than an O-chit to build them.

So, the answer to your question is: When the USA enters the war this early in future games, sure I'll add these nations to the Force Pools. The reason being that the majority of the forces already start on the map for free . . . and if I get into a situation where I actually lose some of them, it means I probably will need them again. Now, if the USA enters the war a year later, the situation is different. In that case I'd likely have about 350 fewer BP to spend over those 15 turns and that makes a difference.
-----
Edit: What I'm really saying when it comes right down to it, is that I don't see 4 units that cost a total of 14 BP as making or breaking the American push simply by being built. Therefore, when entering the war this early, I can't think of it as a "big mistake" to add them to the Force Pools.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 2/1/2012 12:45:53 AM >


_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1964
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:47:34 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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The question is not so much whether to add those units as it is when. You could have held off bringing them into the US force pool for a long time, waiting until those units would be worthy of being built (compared to the other units that could have been built instead).



_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Red Prince)
Post #: 1965
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:55:00 AM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I was too brain-tired to try to set anything up for the Allies, so I did some brainless work instead, searching through my notes to see if the die rolls were evening out over the course of the game. So, through the first impulse of Turn #12, here's what I found:

I recorded 476 die rollls on a 1 D10, and they averaged out to 5.655, which is 0.155 over what you would expect (5.5)
I recorded 58 die rolls on a 2D10, and they averaged out to 11.07, which is almost dead on what you would expect (10.5)
I recorded 75 Fractional Odds rolls, and they averaged out to .503, which is again very close to what you would expect (.4995)
There were 47 weather rolls, and not including the modifiers, the average wearther roll was 5.68, which is again, just over the average (5.5)

What this tells me is that while the rolls do average out over the course of a game, "luck" can be defined by how often a particular roll shows up when it actually matters. The dice (simulator) has no idea if the attack or search roll matters. That's an emotional response we place on the needs of the moment. And, in this game, the luck has been favoring the Axis, I suppose, to a fairly large extent. Early on it was favoring the Allies in terms of USE chits drawn. The more active a side is, the more "luck" it is bound to see, I expect.

Thank you. I was getting nervous seeing all those high numbers.

Your welcome. That's what made me check this. There are definitely streaks, but they sometimes come at good times (land combat) and sometimes at bad times (naval combat). Similarly, last turn I had a great series of Ground Strikes, which needed a streak of low numbers. This turn, I got a lot of high rolls (except for a set of double 1's at Dover) for the Ground Strikes. I truly am starting to believe that the more active you are, the more often you'll feel like you're getting a lucky roll.

If you were to scramble the rolls for the attacks last impulse, the overall results would have been similar, but definitely not the same. And those numbers weren't even all that high compared to some stretches.

I wanted to wait until I had what I considered to be a significant pool before actually running these calculations. I'll probably keep adding to this (another spreadsheet, of course), and be able to report most of the rolls made for the entire game. But, as worried as I was when I had a stretch during which I saw a lot of double rolls, I'm convinced now that the simulation works as intended. I'm pretty sure all of those numbers are within the standard expected deviation.

_____________________________

Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
-Lazarus Long, RAH

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1966
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 12:58:41 AM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The question is not so much whether to add those units as it is when. You could have held off bringing them into the US force pool for a long time, waiting until those units would be worthy of being built (compared to the other units that could have been built instead).

The FTRs don't show up for 3 more turns, and the MECH don't arrive for another 9 turns. Those are two force pools I expect to build out as much as possible. As for the FTR power, the units are not useless. They can be sent as interceptors to sea areas that might get hit by the Italian SUB fleets . . . Mouths of the Amazon, etc.

< Message edited by Red Prince -- 2/1/2012 1:02:18 AM >


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Post #: 1967
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 6:23:39 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
So, the answer to your question is: When the USA enters the war this early in future games, sure I'll add these nations to the Force Pools. The reason being that the majority of the forces already start on the map for free . . . and if I get into a situation where I actually lose some of them, it means I probably will need them again. Now, if the USA enters the war a year later, the situation is different. In that case I'd likely have about 350 fewer BP to spend over those 15 turns and that makes a difference.
-----
Edit: What I'm really saying when it comes right down to it, is that I don't see 4 units that cost a total of 14 BP as making or breaking the American push simply by being built. Therefore, when entering the war this early, I can't think of it as a "big mistake" to add them to the Force Pools.

"The reason being that the majority of the forces already start on the map for free . . " Exactly, you get them for free even without adding the rest to your force pool. The only bad thing is you don't get the free pilots for the 1942 planes - which is totally compensated (and morseo) by getting the US in early.

So it's one O-chit, you say. I'd rather have the extra O-chit. It might be the difference in being able to call a Land O-chit with Eisenhower to attack the last two victory cities the Allies need - everything else being equal. There's also "opportunity cost" - the waste of the draw when you could get a good US unit into the game one or more turns earlier. This is especially true for the Hellcats. It is actually quite hard to draw them as quickly as you want to get them (which is instantly). 12-range FTR2s are the best unit for the Pacific (well - 12 range FTR3s are actually easier to build for sure but you'll want them all anyway.) You might have to build every single FTR2 before you get them all (which hurts gearing as you keep increasing the number each turn to the detriment of something else), so the very last thing you want in the force pool is two useless FTR2s.

BTW - this is the time to start scrapping all the horrid US FTRs you can, but that's not many. Actually the US doesn't have any really good FTRs until '42...

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 2/1/2012 6:36:36 AM >


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Post #: 1968
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 11:13:37 AM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
So, the answer to your question is: When the USA enters the war this early in future games, sure I'll add these nations to the Force Pools. The reason being that the majority of the forces already start on the map for free . . . and if I get into a situation where I actually lose some of them, it means I probably will need them again. Now, if the USA enters the war a year later, the situation is different. In that case I'd likely have about 350 fewer BP to spend over those 15 turns and that makes a difference.
-----
Edit: What I'm really saying when it comes right down to it, is that I don't see 4 units that cost a total of 14 BP as making or breaking the American push simply by being built. Therefore, when entering the war this early, I can't think of it as a "big mistake" to add them to the Force Pools.

"The reason being that the majority of the forces already start on the map for free . . " Exactly, you get them for free even without adding the rest to your force pool. The only bad thing is you don't get the free pilots for the 1942 planes - which is totally compensated (and morseo) by getting the US in early.

So it's one O-chit, you say. I'd rather have the extra O-chit. It might be the difference in being able to call a Land O-chit with Eisenhower to attack the last two victory cities the Allies need - everything else being equal. There's also "opportunity cost" - the waste of the draw when you could get a good US unit into the game one or more turns earlier. This is especially true for the Hellcats. It is actually quite hard to draw them as quickly as you want to get them (which is instantly). 12-range FTR2s are the best unit for the Pacific (well - 12 range FTR3s are actually easier to build for sure but you'll want them all anyway.) You might have to build every single FTR2 before you get them all (which hurts gearing as you keep increasing the number each turn to the detriment of something else), so the very last thing you want in the force pool is two useless FTR2s.

BTW - this is the time to start scrapping all the horrid US FTRs you can, but that's not many. Actually the US doesn't have any really good FTRs until '42...

I was actually thinking of gearing limits, in part, when I chose to include these units. With the Soviets, I had to pace my INF builds because I was running low toward the end of 1940 . . . I thought this might help me maintain gearing limits by adding a few more units to those two pools. Guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.

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Post #: 1969
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 2:54:50 PM   
composer99


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Since this game is going into 1948, adding the Brazilians & Mexicans to the force pools will not be such a problem. Unless the USSR is conquered in mid-1942 I don't see the Allies risking missing out on conquering Axis victory cities because they have to build some Mexican MECH unit.

A game ending in 1945 is a different story.

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Post #: 1970
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 3:21:59 PM   
micheljq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

One thing to note is that if carried out, this invasion is not meant to be a permanent, strategic invasion of Europe, unless of course the Germans ignore it.

Once the Germans start sending over real units, ideally the Allies will have ports to fall back on to evacuate their good units, leaving Brazilians & US MIL units (they may have a use after all!) as a rearguard/nuisance - while invading somewhere else to start it all over again.


Germany is occupied in USSR? And the Axis have to worry about defending France, Spain, Portugal, if I saw correctly?

USA is at war already? Then it's time to mess with the Axis. I would invade Portugal or the north-west of Spain already.

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Post #: 1971
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 3:52:11 PM   
composer99


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Use the Mexicans for garrison duty in the Pacific and send the Brazilians to Senagal to begin the build-up for the Moroccan campaign.


Unless Senegal is conquered, the Brazillians can't go there without FTC and since there is no Brazillian HQ....


As Senegal is the current French home country, you are correct.

What I ought to have recommended (and will hence recommend) is that the Brazilians begin the build-up in Spanish Sahara, instead. They can debark in Cisneros and the Canary Islands without FTC; as a bonus these two ports are adjacent to both Cape St Vincent and Cape Verde Basin, so the Allies don't have to risk TRS in the teeth of Axis fleet & naval air assets in the former sea area.

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Post #: 1972
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 5:50:21 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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I was thinking that the Commonwealth should land some units in Archangel so the Russians don't have to defend that city. To do so, the Commonwealth probably needs to pull the HQ out of Denmark (FTC requirements). Eisenhower is too valuable to spend the cold winters in northern Russia.

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Post #: 1973
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 5:50:54 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Use the Mexicans for garrison duty in the Pacific and send the Brazilians to Senagal to begin the build-up for the Moroccan campaign.


Unless Senegal is conquered, the Brazillians can't go there without FTC and since there is no Brazillian HQ....


As Senegal is the current French home country, you are correct.

What I ought to have recommended (and will hence recommend) is that the Brazilians begin the build-up in Spanish Sahara, instead. They can debark in Cisneros and the Canary Islands without FTC; as a bonus these two ports are adjacent to both Cape St Vincent and Cape Verde Basin, so the Allies don't have to risk TRS in the teeth of Axis fleet & naval air assets in the former sea area.

One problem with this. Spanish Sahara is the new home country for Spain. Sorry to keep screwing you up like this.


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Post #: 1974
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 5:57:10 PM   
Red Prince


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I was thinking that the Commonwealth should land some units in Archangel so the Russians don't have to defend that city. To do so, the Commonwealth probably needs to pull the HQ out of Denmark (FTC requirements). Eisenhower is too valuable to spend the cold winters in northern Russia.

How about MacArthur? He's in the Azores right now.

I could pull Alexander and his supporting Divisions out of Denmark, though. That looked like an opportunity at the time, but it got bottled up pretty quick, and to expand it would use up a lot of long ranged Allied air power that would be better off used on Strat Bombing missions.

The added benefit to using Alexander is that the INF could move back from Petsamo into the USSR to hold Murmansk, in case the winter sees it come under attack.

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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Post #: 1975
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 6:09:21 PM   
Red Prince


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By the way, there are a few reasons I haven't posted anything new today:

1. I had a bad night and did not get a lot of sleep. I've learned not to play an Allied impulse when I don't really feel awake, so I tried to go back to sleep.
2. I'm still deciding if the CW is going to take a Land Action for its first impulse to move up in Africa and India . . . not to mention grabbing the Oil in Burma (or geting close, anyway). I think I'm close to deciding to do that.
3. While I'm not sending the Convoys out until sometime in impulse 6 or 8, I have to decide who is going to defend which sea areas and how to maximize that defense.
4. I have to decide if I can use the American CV/BB fleet that is in Adelaide to effectively attack the Japanese. Without land-based air cover, this looks difficult at best, and the Japanese look like they are going to cut off India from the rest of the CW empire.

5. Which brings me to trying to decide if I'm going to make an attempt to break out from Aden without Air cover. The Aden TERR should be able to hold up against most invasions, but might have trouble against heavier Japanese forces on AMPHs or Marines on transports. The biggest problem here is that until Wavell gains back some more African ports, I haven't got enough Allied minor ports within range of the Arabian Sea to mount a strong naval attack in high sea boxes.

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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it!
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Post #: 1976
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 6:19:24 PM   
Orm


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Sorry to read that you had a bad night. I do hope you feel well.

Following your AAR is a daily entertainment to me. Well played and well reported makes it fun to follow. And now and then I learn something new about how to play MWIF.

Keep up the good work with this AAR and with testing MWIF.

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Post #: 1977
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 7:14:37 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's the cleaner image. You can see that the Russians are going to have a lot of ZOCs to deal with in trying to pull back. It can be done, though . . . sort of. The 2 isolated units northwest of Bryansk should even be able to pull back a hex without getting disorganized.

As the Germans, I decided to let some of my army catch up in the North. To make this work, I had to create as many ZOC situations as I could. If the Russians really wanted to try it, they could probably take out a few of the units that have pushed forward as bait. Some are even very good units, but they would require at least 2 stacks to kill. If the Russians stick that much of there force in a single place to make an attack, it can only help Germany get through the lines.

Something to note: the Southern Front is going to have a 9-5 ARM and a 9-5 MECH rushing in to reinforce it in 2 impulses.

While it isn't on this map below, I think the attack in Persia was worthwhile. If I waited an impulse, the Soviets would have a unit in each of the 5 hexes, and this was the best attack I was going to be able to get, since all but one of those hexes can only be attacked from a single hexside. Now the Russians have to abandon Tabriz if they want a contiguous line, and they will no longer have the luxury of having a full line that can be attacked from only 1 hexside each.




Please tell me that you haven't made your rail moves yet.

Yeremenko (near Moscow) rails to Krasnodar; he is joined by the Para via air transport. The 40th Garr moves into Novorossiysk. This limits the Germans to 1 hex from which to attack (for the moment). 16:5 or 16:11 in a city.

The units in Rostov stay there.

The Dnep. Mil rails to Stavropol. He defends the Caucasus. Hopefully the remnants of the defenders on the Kerch straits will be able to join him.

The 1st Mot Div and the 3-2 in Stalino die there alone.

Going to the north, ...
The Gorki Mil dies in Talinin.

The 51st Inf and Moscow Mil move to the hex SW of Moscow (they can only be attacked from 1 hex). Next impulse they retreat into Moscow.

The 2nd Siberian and 2nd Mech move 2 hexes SE (they will only be attackable from 1 hex). The Kiev Mil moves one hex east (disorganizes) and the the 4th Siberian moves 1 hex SE (stays organized). The 4th GD Div moves into Vitebsk. The 39th Inf move to the hex west of Vitebsk.

The 2nd Mot moves to the hex east of Gomel and is joined by the 3rd Mech.

The Stalino Mil moves 1 hex west. He is going to die there but he interferes with the Axis movement.

The 4th Mech and 13th Mech move NE. The 2nd Armor joins them (14 factors).

The 1st Armor moves to the hex NW of Kharkov. It is joined by the 8-5 GD Mech (15 factors).

The AA moves 2 hexes NW. Its purpose is to prevent the Germans from charging through the hole in the line. The Germans do not have units capable of attacking him there on the blitz table.

Timoshenko moves into Kharkov and Koniev moves into the hex where Timoshenko was sitting.

The goal here it to sacrifice 6 weak units and escape with the best units through the center of the line. The HQ's are too far forward here but there is nothing to be done about that.

First:
I wouldn't pull out of Denmark now. Pulling out there means that the units which are now surrounding Alexander will move towards the new invasion hex in France, so no units will be pulled back out of the USSR.
Archangel sounds good, the question is: how far are the Axis on the way to that city. If they can't grab it this or the next turn, don't put units there. You need the sealift for other things.

Second: on the proposed moves by Steve. I have a problem with those. Especially the one which proposes the move of Timoshenko into Kharhov and the movement of Koniev into the woods. That means Timoshenko is going to die and Koniev might get into an impossible position (you can't rail move a lone unit). Therefore I would propose the following:
Move the Stalino MIL hex stack into the hex NW of Kharkov.
Move the 13th Mech Div stack into the hex NE of there current position. Move the 2nd. MOT onto the Stalino Mil. The other three ARM/MECH should start to run away north of this line directly to the east. The 2nd. MOT goes to Kursk and the MECH there also starts moving towards the Caucasus. Timoshenko gets railed away to safety (Caucasus mountains look pretty save for him now. Put him around Zhukov (but not in the same hex, please...).
Than (and some people aren't going to like this): leave Stalino with that stack and move one hex NE. This makes some form of a front.

In the North: the 3rd MECH is going to die, just as the Kiev MIL stack. That's not to be avoided, since the MECH is in range of a Stuka. I don't want to put any more USSR units under Stuka attack.

The 2nd. MECH stack goes into the hex West of Moscow. The Moscow MIL stack goes in the hex SW of the city, together with the 6-4 INF which is to the south. I would move the stack in Kalinin in the hex NE of Moscow. Yeremenko goes into the resource hex. This means that a breakthrough isn't going to capture Moscow and Yeremenko is ready to depart next turn.
Finally: Koniev and the Para. Koniev moves on the railline towards the east. The Para has to be transported away and the DBF-3 and the FTR need to be rebased as far to either the Caucasus or the Siberain region as possible. Next turn, you can save the other parts of the USSR airforce.

These moves do give the Germans bait: the stacks to be attacked by them are probably the hex SE of Kharkov and the hex with the Mech division. However: those units are lost anyhow, so it is better that you lose them in a way which will give you the best possible defenses. The moves proposed by Steve means losing Kharkov too. I think you can hold onto that city one impulse longer, thus giving the MECH/ARM/MOT more odds on surviving...



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Post #: 1978
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 7:21:25 PM   
Centuur


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Oh: and Steve: look at that white square in Odessa. That's really terrible looking on that very, very nice map... Isn't there something better for railed out factory hexes? We have red, green and blue factories. Can't we make a "white" factory pipe in the square (without smoke)...? Everything else looks so very nice , but that is really

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Post #: 1979
RE: MWiF Global War Hot-Seat (AAR) - 2/1/2012 7:30:52 PM   
Red Prince


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The following is a repetition of post #1458 and post #1466. These were long-term obvjectives for the CW and its Allies made just after the start of the Soviet campagin in M/A '41, and just before the USA first tried (and failed) to enter the war.

I'm re-posting them for the purpsose of reminding myself (and others) what goals I decided on. This should help to explain why there aren't currently large numbers of forces in place to invade Western Europe, I hope.
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

What are the Commonwealth priorities for their land units?

Defend the UK?
Offensive operations in Finland?

West Africa invasion?
East Africa roll up of the Italians?
Invade Iraq?
Hold Aden?
Retake Egypt?
Throw the Japanese out of India/Burma/Ceylon?
Defend Singapore?
Retake the NEI oil?
Defend islands in the Pacific?
Defend New Zealand & Australia?

These are far flung objectives. After choosing what to do, units need to be assign for each task - especially transports for delivering the units to their destinations and convoys et al for keeping them in supply.

I get the feeling that Murmansk is getting a lot of resources when it shouldn't necessarily. Perhaps that is the best use of the best CW INF (the 7-3), but you need to figure out what needs to go where all around the globe rather than simply take the best units available and commit them to the bright shining point of current interest.

Objectives should be developed for the Commonwealth for 1941. Those should drive the decisions throughout the year.

I've put the Highest priorities in bold, with 2nd tier in Red.

Defense of the UK isn't going to be a problem. The EuroAxis builds and land operations make it clear that there will be no Sea Lion (at least in the next 3-4 years). Similarly, I'd like to get an offense going in Finland, but that would be best done during the winter of 1941. The reasons these two units were chosen is that they are both white-print, Alexander was the only HQ available, and they were stacked with the right transports.

A West Africa invasion isn't possible at the moment. The Italians have a small but solid force preventing any serious landings, and Cape St. Vincent is dominated by 60+ Italian surface factors and a good amount of air cover.

I'd really like to start Wavell and his cohort up the East African coast. The units are in position, and reinforcing the area should be easy to do. What I need are Land Actions, and that means setting up convoy defenses that will hold for the full turn. This can eventually lead to retaking Egypt, so retaking Egypt is not at present a top priority.

An invasion of Iraq would be nice, but it would be an invasion in name only. I don't think I can maintain significant forces in the area for at least a year.

Aden needs to be held. It is my primary base for the Indian Ocean fleet, and the only way it could be lost is if Italy decides to go after Saudi Arabia . . . unlikely.

Tossing the Japanese out of India . . . well, I don't want them to get there in the first place. I don't know how important Ceylon actually is in game terms, so I don't know if it should be a priority or not. Similarly, I don't know if Burma is worth the effort.

Singapore has a white-print MIL in it for now, but if Japan really wants it, it has the forces to take it. The same goes for the remaining NEI Oil.

The Pacific is very large, and I think that the USA will be in the war before Japan takes it all, so that is going to be left mostly to the Americans.

Australia and New Zealand will likely be getting reinforcements through builds, and won't need units sent there.
-----
As for the USA, I've decided to spend my 3 naval moves this impulse sending out cruisers loaded with INF Divisions to the N. Atlantic and to the Bay of Biscay. Both are well defended by the CW right now, and Germany isn't going to DOW the USA. If the vote (currently 2-0) continues to favor a USA DOW attempt at 60% vs Germany and Italy, this will put these units in position to take back the Azores and maybe steal a port or two in Portugal or Spain. Just having them sitting there this turn will force Germany to send a few more units to the area.
-----
So, how important is Ceylon in WiF?

From this, I decided on the following goals to pursue:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I recommend defending the Major Port in Ceylon with one unit. This helps the defence of India. Letting Japan gain a major port there is a major threat.

Colombo is only a Minor Port. Trincomalee, which was taken by Japan last impulse is the Major Port, so it's too late to save it.
-----
Edit: Okay, so I've set my top 3 priorities as:
1. Defend the convoy pipelines
2. Defend India
3. Advance in East Africa

Minor priority is to try to prepare an assault on Finland, but there are 2 fresh short-ranged TRS coming in at the start of J/A '41 which can be dedicated to ferrying troops that way. After Alexander enters Murmansk with his supporting INF, all TRS will be dedicated to moving forces toward the goals listed above.

I failed miserably with item #1, but that can be rebuilt easily.

The defense of India -- even if it gets cut off from the rest of the empire -- should be no problem. It would be nice to have an HQ there, but even without that it will be difficult for the Japanese to take both Calcutta and Bombay . . . and then to get all the way to Delhi. That takes care of item #2.

The advance in east Africa started late last turn when the CW took back Nyasaland. This should be a slow and steady campaign, with reinforcements able to reach the front lines if/when necessary. There are enough CW units here now to get this done, and it really doesn't have a time limit on how long it takes to accomplish. If it takes 3 years to reach and re-take Cairo, so be it. The mere threat of this will keep some Italian forces tied up for a while. That's item #3.
-----
The situation in the USSR has changed some of the priorities among the other options, and the USA entry into the war has also had the same effect. There will be no campaign in Finland this winter. I don't think an effective counter-offensive of any kind can be made until spring 1942, at which point it should be made in force . . . that means several landings in Western Europe, even if they aren't meant to hold out for long. I actually think it would be a mistake to encourage the Germans to return to the West right now. Even if every last Soviet unit on the map is killed off this turn (J/A '41), there are several printed factories that can't be reached for the purposes of conquest for quite a while yet. Wouldn't it be better to wait until the majority of the German army is much deeper into Soviet territory, with some key units needing 2 or more rail moves to get back to Western Europe?

The closest HQ to Novosibirsk (the most distant printed factory) is Rommel. He is about 55 hexes away. He's also the fastest HQ, with 5 MP per impulse. So, even if there were not a single Soviet soldier blocking his path, it would still take 11 Axis impulses before he could take the last printed factory in the USSR. That means that even under the best conditions, the USSR won't be conquered before mid-1942. No matter how well the Germans are doing, they aren't going to get the "best conditions".

Wouldn't you rather have an army that is deep enough into the USSR that it takes 2 rail moves to get back to France before letting the Germans know they have to send a strong force back there? There are a lot of cities on the way to Novosibirsk (not to mention Tashkent). The Soviets may be dying, but they aren't dead yet, and perhaps they can be a distraction for the Wallies instead of the other way around.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1980
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