Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Aaron,

I am not particular about what HQ goes to Archangel. I just would like to have the Russians not to have to worry about defending it. The defense should be strong though - at least 2 units permanently located there.

A second unit in the Murmansk/Petsamo area would be good too.

I think of these as "forget about them" cities. You put some reasonable defenders in place and don't move them for the next year or two. Leningrad is another example.

As a player you want to have some certainties in your life. If everything is always in flux, your brain overloads and you start dropping stuff left and right. In chess you know this has happened when you say "#%@#, I hung a rook!"

quote:

and it really doesn't have a time limit on how long it takes to accomplish. If it takes 3 years to reach and re-take Cairo, so be it. The mere threat of this will keep some Italian forces tied up for a while.

quote:

I actually think it would be a mistake to encourage the Germans to return to the West right now. Even if every last Soviet unit on the map is killed off this turn (J/A '41), there are several printed factories that can't be reached for the purposes of conquest for quite a while yet.

quote:

Wouldn't it be better to wait until the majority of the German army is much deeper into Soviet territory, with some key units needing 2 or more rail moves to get back to Western Europe?

quote:

The closest HQ to Novosibirsk (the most distant printed factory) is Rommel. He is about 55 hexes away..., it would still take 11 Axis impulses before he could take the last printed factory in the USSR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beryl

quote:

and it really doesn't have a time limit on how long it takes to accomplish. If it takes 3 years to reach and re-take Cairo, so be it. The mere threat of this will keep some Italian forces tied up for a while.

I would say the opposite : the mere italian forces in Africa will keep CW forces tied up for a while. You Have a time limit, or you won't be able to invade Italia in '43

quote:

I actually think it would be a mistake to encourage the Germans to return to the West right now. Even if every last Soviet unit on the map is killed off this turn (J/A '41), there are several printed factories that can't be reached for the purposes of conquest for quite a while yet.

Maybe, but if all soviet units on the map are killed, USSR won't be able to launch counter-attacks before '44, so the chance are high of an axis victory anyway

quote:

Wouldn't it be better to wait until the majority of the German army is much deeper into Soviet territory, with some key units needing 2 or more rail moves to get back to Western Europe?

Don't count on it, the axis can build two HQ-I in '42 (Kesselring and Cavallero) and all the necessary armor/mech/planes, no need to use many rail moves to reinforce Western Europe.

quote:

The closest HQ to Novosibirsk (the most distant printed factory) is Rommel. He is about 55 hexes away..., it would still take 11 Axis impulses before he could take the last printed factory in the USSR.

True, but remember that even if the global max speed of an army comes from its HQ, without serious opposition, 6 mover units or para can also take rail hexes and cities, even OOS, allowing to rail on next impulse a HQ from any distance. I saw a russian player loosing Stalingrad this way !

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Just a side note here. As long as I can hold on to Calcutta (shouldn't be a problem), I can start harassing the Japanese convoys starting next turn. I think I can get 6-8 SUBs there safely by the end of this turn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Just a side note here. As long as I can hold on to Calcutta (shouldn't be a problem), I can start harassing the Japanese convoys starting next turn. I think I can get 6-8 SUBs there safely by the end of this turn.

Remember to not mix major power naval units in the same port. No idea if the subs are from the same nation or not but I thought a reminder would be in place. Always easy to forget some obscure rule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

I didn't see that disorganised unit in Stalino. It is something which I tend to miss, probably due to the fact that I'm a little colorblind. That changes things indeed. In that case I would probably still move the two other units out into the other hex, to prevent an attack on Kharkov (or at least make it more difficult)
The problem I'm having with putting both Koniev and Timoshenko so close to eachother on the front is that I would be tempted as the Germans to try to take them both out. If that succeeds, the USSR are in even deeper trouble that they are in now. It is risky, but if the attack on Kharkov succeeds, it means the end of two USSR HQ's. That's too much. What's the word: don't risk the most terrible result possible, if you can't afford it? That is something which is always used on attacking, but is often disregarded when defending.
The turn is young and probably very, very long. I really think the USSR can't afford a "stand and fight" position around the Don.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Another update: I'll be able to evacuate Denmark this turn, but I'll only be able to add 1 unit to Petsamo this turn. I'll need to wait until next turn to get Archangel covered. Unless I use Eisenhower, and I can move him into position for that and decide if it's necessary later in the turn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

I didn't see that disorganised unit in Stalino. It is something which I tend to miss, probably due to the fact that I'm a little colorblind. That changes things indeed. In that case I would probably still move the two other units out into the other hex, to prevent an attack on Kharkov (or at least make it more difficult)
The problem I'm having with putting both Koniev and Timoshenko so close to eachother on the front is that I would be tempted as the Germans to try to take them both out. If that succeeds, the USSR are in even deeper trouble that they are in now. It is risky, but if the attack on Kharkov succeeds, it means the end of two USSR HQ's. That's too much. What's the word: don't risk the most terrible result possible, if you can't afford it? That is something which is always used on attacking, but is often disregarded when defending.
The turn is young and probably very, very long. I really think the USSR can't afford a "stand and fight" position around the Don.

There are actually 2 units disorganized in Stalino, so it's only the top unit in the "clean" image that can move. I don't think Steve was suggesting both Koniev and Timoshenko move to Kharkov. I think he suggested that Koniev go to the forest now occupied by Timoshenko, and Timoshenko moves to Kharkov.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

I didn't see that disorganised unit in Stalino. It is something which I tend to miss, probably due to the fact that I'm a little colorblind. That changes things indeed. In that case I would probably still move the two other units out into the other hex, to prevent an attack on Kharkov (or at least make it more difficult)
The problem I'm having with putting both Koniev and Timoshenko so close to eachother on the front is that I would be tempted as the Germans to try to take them both out. If that succeeds, the USSR are in even deeper trouble that they are in now. It is risky, but if the attack on Kharkov succeeds, it means the end of two USSR HQ's. That's too much. What's the word: don't risk the most terrible result possible, if you can't afford it? That is something which is always used on attacking, but is often disregarded when defending.
The turn is young and probably very, very long. I really think the USSR can't afford a "stand and fight" position around the Don.
Now: everybody else is talking about USA and CW. Personally, I'm more interested in the survival of the USSR now. What should Red Prince do with the Soviet Army? I think we need more imput on the tactical parts of the soviet defense for this impulse...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Aaron,

I am not particular about what HQ goes to Archangel. I just would like to have the Russians not to have to worry about defending it. The defense should be strong though - at least 2 units permanently located there.

A second unit in the Murmansk/Petsamo area would be good too.

I think of these as "forget about them" cities. You put some reasonable defenders in place and don't move them for the next year or two. Leningrad is another example.

As a player you want to have some certainties in your life. If everything is always in flux, your brain overloads and you start dropping stuff left and right. In chess you know this has happened when you say "#%@#, I hung a rook!"

Would it be unkind of me to point out now that this was the original purpose of the 4-unit force I was going to send to Murmansk and Archangel 2 turns ago?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

I didn't see that disorganised unit in Stalino. It is something which I tend to miss, probably due to the fact that I'm a little colorblind. That changes things indeed. In that case I would probably still move the two other units out into the other hex, to prevent an attack on Kharkov (or at least make it more difficult)
The problem I'm having with putting both Koniev and Timoshenko so close to eachother on the front is that I would be tempted as the Germans to try to take them both out. If that succeeds, the USSR are in even deeper trouble that they are in now. It is risky, but if the attack on Kharkov succeeds, it means the end of two USSR HQ's. That's too much. What's the word: don't risk the most terrible result possible, if you can't afford it? That is something which is always used on attacking, but is often disregarded when defending.
The turn is young and probably very, very long. I really think the USSR can't afford a "stand and fight" position around the Don.
Now: everybody else is talking about USA and CW. Personally, I'm more interested in the survival of the USSR now. What should Red Prince do with the Soviet Army? I think we need more imput on the tactical parts of the soviet defense for this impulse...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Another update: I'll be able to evacuate Denmark this turn, but I'll only be able to add 1 unit to Petsamo this turn. I'll need to wait until next turn to get Archangel covered. Unless I use Eisenhower, and I can move him into position for that and decide if it's necessary later in the turn.
-----
Edit: I've also decided to wait until next impulse to try to clear the Arabian Sea. It's going to be very bloody, and the USA can't do it alone . . . they're going to need the help of the CW (taking a Land Action this impulse).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Peter,

I am not sure about your proposal to move the units out of Stalino. Only one of them is organized (the orange dot to the left of the # of units in hex number indicates the unit is disorganized).

I thought about "run away" - it was my first instinct - but I believe the USSR can build a strong line to the north and another to the south. My guess is that more units can be saved this way. But of course it depends on where the Germans attack and what their die rolls are.

What was the deciding factor for me was the weakness of the Germans in the south. They can't even overrun a single AA unit alone in a clear hex. If they take the gifts, in the south I don't think they can make more than 1 other attack.

The German forces in the north are much more fearsome. But even there the armor units are rather few.

If the Germans attack any of the stronger hexes (11+ factors), they risk a bad die roll which could disorganize some of their best units.

The Stuka can only ground strike one clear hex with mechanized/motorized units. That is a 50-50 proposition. They might want to use that unit for ground support. Even if they succeed and disorganize 1 unit, that was a unit that would die anyway if no attempt is made to drag his butt out of the fire.

But, yeah, if the Germans go for risky attacks and roll well, things could get even messier than they are now. But if the Germans make those attacks and fail, ... well, then the defense will be much easier.

By the way, I consider this 'tactic' to be offering your opponent more than he can safely bite off and swallow. If he declines, then the USSR gains a lot (vis-a-vis running away immediately). But if he accepts, then all is in the hands of the Dice Gods.

I didn't see that disorganised unit in Stalino. It is something which I tend to miss, probably due to the fact that I'm a little colorblind. That changes things indeed. In that case I would probably still move the two other units out into the other hex, to prevent an attack on Kharkov (or at least make it more difficult)
The problem I'm having with putting both Koniev and Timoshenko so close to eachother on the front is that I would be tempted as the Germans to try to take them both out. If that succeeds, the USSR are in even deeper trouble that they are in now. It is risky, but if the attack on Kharkov succeeds, it means the end of two USSR HQ's. That's too much. What's the word: don't risk the most terrible result possible, if you can't afford it? That is something which is always used on attacking, but is often disregarded when defending.
The turn is young and probably very, very long. I really think the USSR can't afford a "stand and fight" position around the Don.

There are actually 2 units disorganized in Stalino, so it's only the top unit in the "clean" image that can move. I don't think Steve was suggesting both Koniev and Timoshenko move to Kharkov. I think he suggested that Koniev go to the forest now occupied by Timoshenko, and Timoshenko moves to Kharkov.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I also have the Sverdlovsk MIL I can rail to the front somewhere . . . I'm thinking Stavropol in case Yeremenko and his defense doesn't hold.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Petsamo/Murmansk:

The Axis can't rail units up the road so until they send an HQ and army walking up, this area is under no threat for the foreseeable future. No further units need to go here. The CW INF already in place in Finland can march further south every turn down the road until the Finns attack it or it reaches a port on the Baltic (and waits for reinforcements).


Archangel:

Do not pull out units (and especially not an HQ) from Denmark to plug a force in here. Whether or not to reinforce it this turn or next depends on the Axis advances towards the city.

Send Eisenhower this turn, if you have to send anyone, and throw in 2 American MIL this turn or next turn (might as well make them useful now you've built them!) as sealift permits, ideally using the white-print one, if available. Eisenhower can then leave once both US MIL are in as they will subsequently always satisfy the "starting the step" portion of the non-cooperation rule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

I also have the Sverdlovsk MIL I can rail to the front somewhere . . . I'm thinking Stavropol in case Yeremenko and his defense doesn't hold.

There are a dozen good places that unit could move to. For instance, railing him to Timoshenko should relieve the concern Peter has about being able to rail out Koniev next turn if needs be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Another update: I'll be able to evacuate Denmark this turn, but I'll only be able to add 1 unit to Petsamo this turn. I'll need to wait until next turn to get Archangel covered. Unless I use Eisenhower, and I can move him into position for that and decide if it's necessary later in the turn.

Again: don't evacuate this turn. This will mean freeing Axis units to strengthen defenses on the coast of France. Get another invasion on the way in France to upset German defenses. If they don't react enough, next turn you put another invasion somewhere on the mainland too. You must become a nuisance to the Axis now, not later.
Stalin: "Where is that second front. It should come NOW, not later. Now it are only the brave Soviet comrades who get killed, etc. etc. Also: where are the resources the CW and the USA should send to us. We need lend lease..."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Petsamo/Murmansk:

The Axis can't rail units up the road so until they send an HQ and army walking up, this area is under no threat for the foreseeable future. No further units need to go here. The CW INF already in place in Finland can march further south every turn down the road until the Finns attack it or it reaches a port on the Baltic (and waits for reinforcements).


Archangel:

Do not pull out units (and especially not an HQ) from Denmark to plug a force in here. Whether or not to reinforce it this turn or next depends on the Axis advances towards the city.

Send Eisenhower this turn, if you have to send anyone, and throw in 2 American MIL this turn or next turn (might as well make them useful now you've built them!) as sealift permits, ideally using the white-print one, if available. Eisenhower can then leave once both US MIL are in as they will subsequently always satisfy the "starting the step" portion of the non-cooperation rule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

As long as you have an HQ, you can debark it into any friendly hex; you can then debark any other units onto the HQ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Petsamo/Murmansk:

The Axis can't rail units up the road so until they send an HQ and army walking up, this area is under no threat for the foreseeable future. No further units need to go here. The CW INF already in place in Finland can march further south every turn down the road until the Finns attack it or it reaches a port on the Baltic (and waits for reinforcements).


Archangel:

Do not pull out units (and especially not an HQ) from Denmark to plug a force in here. Whether or not to reinforce it this turn or next depends on the Axis advances towards the city.

Send Eisenhower this turn, if you have to send anyone, and throw in 2 American MIL this turn or next turn (might as well make them useful now you've built them!) as sealift permits, ideally using the white-print one, if available. Eisenhower can then leave once both US MIL are in as they will subsequently always satisfy the "starting the step" portion of the non-cooperation rule.

Bah. Throw an American MIL into Murmansk to keep the Finns away.