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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Wild Sheep Chase

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 5:48:55 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The other strategy might be AV or bust!!! I see why a lot of players now are also going for it. Why play to historical boundaries and wait? At least if you fail in taking India theres a viable reason to capitulate in 43!

I think my game here is only a very small indicator of some pitfalls to watch out for over the course of the contest. I hope to find out where I lost the supply i now need, and where I could have saved it.

Yep, AV or go home.

Actually, you kind of reinforce my point. I agree that your game is a small indicator and you probably could have saved a ton of supply by doing things differently. However, you were aggressive and fought back and that is costly in terms of supply. Crackaces makes a good point, maybe Japanese players need to be more judicial in their use of force throughout the game. You've shown it's costly to fight all through the war with little downtime and now in 45 you've got a supply crunch. Understandable, but at least fighting back was enjoyable despite the cost and situation you are facing now. The alternative is a game like mine...boring. Why just sit and stockpile HI, fuel and supply only to get pounded when the Allies finally start to move? Not fun in the slightest. That's why if I ever play Japan again, I will be much more aggressive because it's fun. You might as well shoot for the stars, the alternative is nothing but a daily grind to defeat with periods of intense boredom simply moving stuff around.

Forget that! AV is...really hard, IMO. The Allied player needs to basically let you have it, whether he realizes he is or not, or else commit several huge blunders that cost him lots of VPs. If you go for the AV and miss, you won't have the supplies to make it even as far as Obvert has.

Maybe. Unless you get a whole big chunk of India or OZ and can hold long enough for that to add back the supply and fuel it took to take in the first place. That might be possible with the Eastern part of India. Or the Sydney area of OZ.

quote:

I think there is plenty of opportunity to make the Allies bleed as they advance, delaying the game long enough to achieve victory for Japan within the terms of the game. But what do I know, I've never played a human beyond March of 1942. We'll see if it pans out for me.

The trouble is that when they bleed, you also bleed! This is the history playing itself out again. Even if you render subs ineffective beyond historical possibility, have late war fighters in great numbers way before the IJ had them, and can advance your fleet well before their historical launching dates, you still have to make all of that stuff go, and that costs.

You want to sail a fleet of 12+ CVs around in 43-45? Well, your fuel will suffer, you will use a lot of supply to refill those sorties and pump more 36cm shells into those BBs, and then your economy will have an earlier sell-by date.

You want to shut down Allied land advances in Burma with a big army in the middle of the jungle? Well, you then use a big chunk of supply in areas where it's inefficient to move it, and you'll use even more with the air force you need to protect those troops. You'll use a bunch of fuel shipping all of that down to Burma and risk getting all of it cut off if you stay too long. And if you don't do any of this, then the B-29s will bomb the DEI from 4/44 onward, crushing your life-blood in the oil centers of the SRA.

Do you want to hold back an advance in the Southern DEI a la GJ vs Q-Ball? Okay, spend a ton on forts and infrastructure, spend a whole bunch more keeping massive air forces going while losing thousands of airframes, run the IJN out of DDs and potentially risk the KB to a devastating loss, and still let in the Allies in range of the oil by mid-44 even with a restriction on strat bombing at night. (Sorry GJ you're doing great but there is always a cost as Japan, as we've spoken about).

I look at jrcar and think of this also, as he played a masterful game of slowing, retreating aggressively, and most likely ran out of supply before running out of HI or planes and ships to fight. We may never know but i'd love to see endgame details from that one.

What if you want to do all of those things plus keeping solid defenses in the North and Central Pacific in Scen 1 and still make to the endgame? Hmmmmmm.

If you want to play farther you have to think about making concessions as the Japanese. What can you give up and what can't you give up?

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Post #: 2761

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 5:54:15 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Having a clear plan and stopping your advance on your own terms is key I think. If you can get to your goals and slow down operations early on, it gives you that much more time to stockpile supplies for the late war. I've already started making a number of changes to my plans based on this AAR. While it might have been nice to make them earlier, I figure better late than never.

Early in this game I was very conscious of not pushing too far, but I still over-used elements of the IJN and the air forces. I responded to the way-faster-than-historical pace of air ops my opponent was able to employ with fast paced rotation of air groups, a visible KB, and lots of sorties. I might have been better conceding some spots, especially deep So Pac.

What changes are you making now?

_____________________________

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Post #: 2762

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 6:04:22 PM

witpqs

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This is really the same conversation that's been going on for a long time on these forums. Basically, there is a difference between winning 'the war', and winning 'the game'. For the Japanese side to win 'the war' is pretty rare in the scenarios that are meant to reflect the realities that were present. For the Japanese side to win 'the game' is plenty common, and is a reflection of how 'winning the game' is defined. I am not a big fan of VP and the attendant victory conditions on the theory that the development team simply no way had the time or effort available to tune them. They did a great job with them anyway, but there is more to it. I do look at VP, but 'auto vic' or 'decisive vic', etc. I think is asking too much of the VP set up. Others' opinions differ.

The notion of a Japanese player going for broke and them dumping the game when he doesn't get the short term 'win' has been around since day one. Obviously that is a bad deal unless both players agreed to that at the outset.

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Post #: 2763

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 6:12:33 PM

FeurerKrieg

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Strategy changes I can't say here, but I'll talk about them in my AAR from time to time. My opponent does read the forums occasionally after all.

I've made some production adjustments to balance out local resources/fuel/oil in the fashion that was discussed some pages back - HI in the outlying areas and LI closer in the home island/Korea. I hadn't really planned on doing much expansion in that regard at all, but saving fuel due to not hauling as much home (the HI balancing) and having supply production when the fuel does run out (LI expansion) seem like very valuable tweaks.

My R&D spending is already well down the path, so no turning back there. I have turned off nearly all my fort/port/AF production except at very specific places that I want to build. I have also stopped a lot of bombing missions that I used to just let run everyday.

I plan to take a second look at fuel use versus cargo capacity/speed on my convoy planning as well, but haven't got to it yet. I generally use my slow ships for convoy duty so the faster ones are available to move troops and supplies for operations, but I don't know for a fact that the slow ships are more efficient in terms of fuel spent per ton of product moved.

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Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

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Post #: 2764

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 6:26:40 PM

Lokasenna

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FWIW, replenishing ammo stocks doesn't cost all that much supply. It does add up if you're doing it every day, but if your guns are only getting used every couple of weeks... it's not so bad. I have the actual numbers on a computer at work, so I'll check on Monday if I remember.

RE: bleeding while bleeding the Allied advance - in general terms, I'll gladly trade blood for blood and time. I think the key is to pick your battles and lay traps, as you simply can't brute force the Allies in 1944. But if you can get him to overextend, hit some key ships or LCUs hard, and then force him to run a gauntlet trying to save what's left of his invasion... That's much easier to say than it is to do, and honestly it may not even be possible. But we Japanese players have to try!

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Post #: 2765

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 7:14:54 PM

SqzMyLemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The notion of a Japanese player going for broke and them dumping the game when he doesn't get the short term 'win' has been around since day one. Obviously that is a bad deal unless both players agreed to that at the outset.

I don't think anybody here is advocating going for auto-victory and then dumping the game if unsuccessful, rather if you play aggressively to apply pressure to the Allied player in 42/43 there is an associated late war cost to that strategy in that you run out of supply. If you can achieve auto-victory great, but if you fail be aware of the consequences. On the other hand you can face a Sir Robin or some hybrid of such and play a conservative Japan and build up forts and plan for a defensive campaign to bleed the Allies and force a draw perhaps. There's obviously a balance Japan has to perform in order to be aggressive (have fun) yet still be competitive for the late game with adequate supply and HI (which means the late war might be fun too).

No offence, but I think what we are trying to discuss here is how to accomplish both so the game for a Japanese player is enjoyable throughout. Ever since I joined the forum it's been drilled into my head, stockpile HI, HI, HI and supply has hardly been mentioned and these games going late into 45 are shedding new understanding of the consequences of running hell bent for leather with Japan in 42/43 or playing a game utilizing poor supply management. The conditions to win the game are what they are and as Bullwinkle points out they are VP based, regardless of how you want to spin the idea of what victory means to either player if they don't "play" for VP's. So I don't believe this current discussion is about winning with Japan, it's about how do you strike that balance so the whole game is fun and competitive for a Japanese player, rather than a sitzkrieg until the Allied player moves or having to play the late game getting pummeled because you have no supply left due to choices you made 2 years ago, but until you understand the consequences yourself, player after player will still make the same mistakes. I believe this discussion is trying to change the mindset of the Japanese player to understand supply and how you use it is a determining factor in how the late game will unfold.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/3/2014 8:17:12 PM >

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Post #: 2766

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 7:55:38 PM

Crackaces

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There is one other thing at play in some games .. the DBB games cut potential supply by 10%. It seems like a great idea.. I mean people can't eat fuel ...
and Palembang can become a self-supplied bastion in the stock game ....
However, one side effect is 10% less supply . especially in the home islands and that it looks like can become crucial late game
accepting an abstraction that places that have refineries also have facilities that can produce "supply" might be better for the game than the concrete thought that only refineries exists in this bases .. etc ..

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 1/3/2014 8:57:45 PM >

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Post #: 2767

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 8:28:46 PM

dennishe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

There is one other thing at play in some games .. the DBB games cut potential supply by 10%. It seems like a great idea.. I mean people can't eat fuel ...
and Palembang can become a self-supplied bastion in the stock game ....
However, one side effect is 10% less supply . especially in the home islands and that it looks like can become crucial late game
accepting an abstraction that places that have refineries also have facilities that can produce "supply" might be better for the game than the concrete thought that only refineries exists in this bases .. etc ..

One could simply add some extra LI to the scenario to compensate(?)

Great AAR, Obvert

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Post #: 2768

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 8:36:52 PM

FeurerKrieg

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They've fixed this in the latest DBB iteration. Refineries produce supply again, but the refineries are not right in Palembang so as to prevent a fortress Palembang situation. I think some refineries were added to the home islands as well because there were some historical ones that were left out of the game.

I don't have the link to JWE's post, but I think it is in the Scenario section.

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Post #: 2769

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 8:48:10 PM

FeurerKrieg

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Here it is...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3476319&mpage=1&key=

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Post #: 2770

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 9:50:09 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The notion of a Japanese player going for broke and them dumping the game when he doesn't get the short term 'win' has been around since day one. Obviously that is a bad deal unless both players agreed to that at the outset.

I don't think anybody here is advocating going for auto-victory and then dumping the game if unsuccessful, rather if you play aggressively to apply pressure to the Allied player in 42/43 there is an associated late war cost to that strategy in that you run out of supply. If you can achieve auto-victory great, but if you fail be aware of the consequences. On the other hand you can face a Sir Robin or some hybrid of such and play a conservative Japan and build up forts and plan for a defensive campaign to bleed the Allies and force a draw perhaps. There's obviously a balance Japan has to perform in order to be aggressive (have fun) yet still be competitive for the late game with adequate supply and HI (which means the late war might be fun too).

No offence, but I think what we are trying to discuss here is how to accomplish both so the game for a Japanese player is enjoyable throughout. Ever since I joined the forum it's been drilled into my head, stockpile HI, HI, HI and supply has hardly been mentioned and these games going late into 45 are shedding new understanding of the consequences of running hell bent for leather with Japan in 42/43 or playing a game utilizing poor supply management. The conditions to win the game are what they are and as Bullwinkle points out they are VP based, regardless of how you want to spin the idea of what victory means to either player if they don't "play" for VP's. So I don't believe this current discussion is about winning with Japan, it's about how do you strike that balance so the whole game is fun and competitive for a Japanese player, rather than a sitzkrieg until the Allied player moves or having to play the late game getting pummeled because you have no supply left due to choices you made 2 years ago, but until you understand the consequences yourself, player after player will still make the same mistakes. I believe this discussion is trying to change the mindset of the Japanese player to understand supply and how you use it is a determining factor in how the late game will unfold.

No offense taken, I think reading too much into what I said.

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Post #: 2771

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 11:25:08 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Strategy changes I can't say here, but I'll talk about them in my AAR from time to time. My opponent does read the forums occasionally after all.

I've made some production adjustments to balance out local resources/fuel/oil in the fashion that was discussed some pages back - HI in the outlying areas and LI closer in the home island/Korea. I hadn't really planned on doing much expansion in that regard at all, but saving fuel due to not hauling as much home (the HI balancing) and having supply production when the fuel does run out (LI expansion) seem like very valuable tweaks.

My R&D spending is already well down the path, so no turning back there. I have turned off nearly all my fort/port/AF production except at very specific places that I want to build. I have also stopped a lot of bombing missions that I used to just let run everyday.

I plan to take a second look at fuel use versus cargo capacity/speed on my convoy planning as well, but haven't got to it yet. I generally use my slow ships for convoy duty so the faster ones are available to move troops and supplies for operations, but I don't know for a fact that the slow ships are more efficient in terms of fuel spent per ton of product moved.

Interestingly, according to Tracker the Kyushu class is the most efficient hauler in the IJ merchant fleet for fuel used per unit of stuff. The Limas are also very good and the Aden class isn't too far behind, so they are the most used for me in terms of hauling both supply/resources and less valuable units. I'll send engineer units with supply in these, but combat units bigger than a naval guard get at least the 14 knot and preferably the 15 knot ships. Major infantry, tank of HQ units usually get moved in 15-21 knot ships, either AK, xAP or AMC.

I'll have a look in your AAR for the strategic changes.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2772

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 11:33:05 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

There is one other thing at play in some games .. the DBB games cut potential supply by 10%. It seems like a great idea.. I mean people can't eat fuel ...
and Palembang can become a self-supplied bastion in the stock game ....
However, one side effect is 10% less supply . especially in the home islands and that it looks like can become crucial late game
accepting an abstraction that places that have refineries also have facilities that can produce "supply" might be better for the game than the concrete thought that only refineries exists in this bases .. etc ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

They've fixed this in the latest DBB iteration. Refineries produce supply again, but the refineries are not right in Palembang so as to prevent a fortress Palembang situation. I think some refineries were added to the home islands as well because there were some historical ones that were left out of the game.

I don't have the link to JWE's post, but I think it is in the Scenario section.

I would gladly trade the possibility of a build-up at Palembang for the extra supply. It might be trashed in January if you take it then and it might be fine after months of siege as in my other game with Historiker when I think I finally got it in April 42. The lost fuel is a bummer, but having the supply generation is a very good thing at 1k a day for maybe 1000+ days of the war.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2773

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/3/2014 11:59:16 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

FWIW, replenishing ammo stocks doesn't cost all that much supply. It does add up if you're doing it every day, but if your guns are only getting used every couple of weeks... it's not so bad. I have the actual numbers on a computer at work, so I'll check on Monday if I remember.

RE: bleeding while bleeding the Allied advance - in general terms, I'll gladly trade blood for blood and time. I think the key is to pick your battles and lay traps, as you simply can't brute force the Allies in 1944. But if you can get him to overextend, hit some key ships or LCUs hard, and then force him to run a gauntlet trying to save what's left of his invasion... That's much easier to say than it is to do, and honestly it may not even be possible. But we Japanese players have to try!

This is it, but it's what GreyJoy is doing very well, and by his own admission Q-Ball is still progressing. It's what jrcar did at nearly every invasion in that game, which seems to have ended in late 44 or early 45. It's what rader did brilliantly before Operation Suddenly Hairy. Even PzB did amazingly well frustrating every Allied push but the game was forced to stop when he ran out of supply. Familiar? Everything has a price.

At some points I managed to get it right and really put a damper on the Allied moves forward, but the one chance I had to really get a fox in the henhouse something fizzled. The KB 2 hexes from about 40 Allied naval ships in several SAGs plus a massive invasion convoy, and I ended up hitting the two Iowas hard and not much else.

That was mid-43 so a BIG complete KB with Judys and Jills, no air cover on the Allied fleets, and we got to zero amphibs!!! Still mad about that. It would have given 3-6 more months to the defenses. Instead I chose to skedaddle the KB for fear of surface intercept and Jocke moved in fearlessly to take Sarmi. Great move on his part. Doing it again, I potentially sacrifice the KB for another shot day two and likely do better. Live and learn!

May your KB always send a full coordinated strike!

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Post #: 2774

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 3:16:17 AM

PaxMondo

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PzB had supply issues, but that was due to the version of the game. Shortly after his game started, a serious bug was found with supply that was subsequently patched. However the IJ had lost quite a bit of supply prior to the fix. Michael went into that game at least once to add supply to the IJ for PzB. We can't draw any conclusions from that game on end game supply.

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Post #: 2775

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 12:22:00 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PzB had supply issues, but that was due to the version of the game. Shortly after his game started, a serious bug was found with supply that was subsequently patched. However the IJ had lost quite a bit of supply prior to the fix. Michael went into that game at least once to add supply to the IJ for PzB. We can't draw any conclusions from that game on end game supply.

There are not a lot of games that get to the end and PzB's game has a unique problem. Radier's game vs. GreyJoy ended .....
I have two games as an AFB that ended using the Burma strike taking out Indochina. One ended early .. the other in Allied AV in April 1944. In neither of these games did the IJ experience supply problems but the email complaints focused on fuel ..
Primarily from running the KB and escorts around raiding things .. and then suddenly realizing the impact to the overall economy.

So this game is probably one of the few that has made it to the "endgame" to provide a data point for future games.

There is one interesting side effect of invading Oz and/or India in terms of supply ...
supply is lost the further it is propagated along with the supply used for moving and combat.
This has a cost also and supplies have to be shipped in to sustain the offense.
I wonder what the long term effect on strategy in the endgame these forays have ...

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Post #: 2776

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 1:03:18 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PzB had supply issues, but that was due to the version of the game. Shortly after his game started, a serious bug was found with supply that was subsequently patched. However the IJ had lost quite a bit of supply prior to the fix. Michael went into that game at least once to add supply to the IJ for PzB. We can't draw any conclusions from that game on end game supply.

As you say though supply was added to compensate for this deficit. Maybe it wasn't enough? Not sure, I'd have to go back to read the AAR again, which likely won't happen soon as it's very involved and long.

What I do know is that PzB had virtually intact IJN, a huge and active air force, a massive army in Burma and in other very extended parts of the Empire well into 44, and the game stopped due to not enough supply. So maybe in spite of the earlier problems it still was an overextension of what is possible with the IJ and PzB with all of his brilliance in holding the line wasn't willing to recognize he needed to pull back to continue the fight.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2777

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 1:07:07 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

PzB had supply issues, but that was due to the version of the game. Shortly after his game started, a serious bug was found with supply that was subsequently patched. However the IJ had lost quite a bit of supply prior to the fix. Michael went into that game at least once to add supply to the IJ for PzB. We can't draw any conclusions from that game on end game supply.

There are not a lot of games that get to the end and PzB's game has a unique problem. Radier's game vs. GreyJoy ended .....
I have two games as an AFB that ended using the Burma strike taking out Indochina. One ended early .. the other in Allied AV in April 1944. In neither of these games did the IJ experience supply problems but the email complaints focused on fuel ..
Primarily from running the KB and escorts around raiding things .. and then suddenly realizing the impact to the overall economy.

So this game is probably one of the few that has made it to the "endgame" to provide a data point for future games.

There is one interesting side effect of invading Oz and/or India in terms of supply ...
supply is lost the further it is propagated along with the supply used for moving and combat.
This has a cost also and supplies have to be shipped in to sustain the offense.
I wonder what the long term effect on strategy in the endgame these forays have ...

I'd also be interested to know something of the Aztez games that went into 46, and I believe all of the way to the end, but the info on the Japanese side isn't there as his opponents didn't do AARs.

I had hoped to make it into 46 to provide an even better 'data point' but my earlier ignorance of the effects of building infrastructure might make this impossible now.

Still, it's something, and I'm willing to look through in a final assessment with an objective view to finding the most likely causes to the current supply issues.

_____________________________

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Post #: 2778

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 1:39:46 PM

obvert

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7 - 10 April 1945
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

SUBS: The Alies have moved a contingent of subs up near the Kyushu coast, most likely to thwart any dashes toward Okinawa and islands surrounding. Ive turned on some of the ASW air groups, and I'll fly a few more over to work the area. I can put some Es on patrol to enter the area and leave before they get caught in strike range as well. Subs are still fun to hunt at least!

STRAT BOMBING: The B-29B head for Korea and hit HI in Keijo setting back the development of the Kia by at least 2-3 years.

The armed versions go for Nagasaki but suffer decent losses for the small amount of LI destroyed. Of course the NF suffer worse, but the recent break has let our pools really recover and all groups are now fully fleshed out, including the 48 plane Dinah III KAI group in Osaka.

CHINA: The Allies win a decisive breakthrough on the yellow road outside of Wuchow. This opens paths to either Kukong or Kweillin. I'm beginning to think of a general retreat now as the troops also moved toward Canton instead of the road to Kukong, making the path there easy for the Allied tanks. Troops from Hong Kong will shift up to Canton, leaving about 700 AV as a last defense of the city. All ports from Swatow to Amoy will begin retreating all but garrisons. Everything will head to Kukong, but I might decide at some point to move more from the area around Liuchow once I know the heading of the main Allied stack near there. A small force of 1500 AV is still in the Kweillin area holding off potential moves by the Million Chinese there, and a small force of 1k AV will remain in the mountains to stall attempts to link up to Burma supply.

The Allies finally achieved a 1:1 in the Paoshan area after sending about 500-600 4E and 2E over the Himalayas daily for weeks now. The value of those units is immeasurable to continued stalling in other areas, as even sporadic bombing in the rest of China would wipe out supply completely. All non-essential units are moving to rail back to Fusan and then to the HI including most engineer and air support units.

HOME ISLANDS: All units have now turned off replacements in the HI and I've disbanded most large training float plane units while standing down all strike units including kamis until threats are sighted. CAP is still operating everywhere. I'll let all units train one round of pilots in incoming groups and then convert them to kamis to wait out final missions.

CENTRAL PACFIC: A small strike by Jakes hits a supply convoy likely sinking an xAK. Fun to hit something, anything!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 7, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Marcus Island at 125,94

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 22 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
E13A1 Jake x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
xAK Billy Sunday, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAK Charles M. Russell, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x E13A1 Jake bombing from 1000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR March 8, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 77,56 (near Wuchow)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 33582 troops, 524 guns, 1851 vehicles, Assault Value = 1750

Defending force 16027 troops, 97 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 584

Allied adjusted assault: 998

Japanese adjusted defense: 409

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), fatigue(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
8373 casualties reported
Squads: 98 destroyed, 225 disabled
Non Combat: 122 destroyed, 66 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 36 (10 destroyed, 26 disabled)
Units retreated 2

Allied ground losses:
409 casualties reported
Squads: 19 destroyed, 76 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 56 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 103 (5 destroyed, 98 disabled)

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
255th Indian Tank Brigade
Guides Cavalry Regiment
Gardner's Horse Regiment
Provisionl Tank Brigade
3rd Cavalry Regiment
50th Tank Brigade
254th Armoured Brigade
11th PAVO Regiment
19th Motorised Division
18th Cavalry Regiment
17th Motorised Division

Defending units:
17th Ind.Mixed Brigade
69th Division
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR March 9, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-Sa Irving x 18

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
J1N1-Sa Irving: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 5 damaged

Light Industry hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Amami Oshima (98,64)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 23519 troops, 434 guns, 806 vehicles, Assault Value = 984

Defending force 8318 troops, 124 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 254

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 3

Allied adjusted assault: 782

Japanese adjusted defense: 1054

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
530 casualties reported
Squads: 31 destroyed, 66 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 59 (21 destroyed, 38 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
85 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 34 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 25 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 9 (4 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 39 (1 destroyed, 38 disabled)

Assaulting units:
754th Tank Battalion
25th Infantry Division
6th Infantry Division
3rd USMC Tank Battalion
5th USMC Tank Battalion

Defending units:
Oshima Naval Guard Unit
70th Ind.Mixed Brigade
Amami Oshima Fortress
34th Const Co
189th JAAF AF Bn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR March 10, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on Liuchow , at 74,55

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 18
N1K2-J George x 28
Ki-84r Frank x 92

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt I x 19
P-51D Mustang x 108

Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
11 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
12 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
18 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
14 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
17 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Liuchow , at 74,55

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 13
N1K2-J George x 26
Ki-84r Frank x 84

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt I x 39
P-51D Mustang x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Thunderbolt I: 1 destroyed
P-51D Mustang: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Liuchow , at 74,55

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 54 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 13
N1K2-J George x 15
Ki-84r Frank x 75

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt I x 29
P-51D Mustang x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 3 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reinforcements:

ML G-604 arrives at Shimonoseki
25th Sentai arrives at Kobe
112th Ind.Mixed Brigade arrives at Takao
38th Road Const Co arrives at Tokyo
33rd Special Base Force arrives at Tokyo
DD Natsuzuki arrives at Maizuru
E Amami arrives at Tokyo
31st Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
36th Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
37th Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
38th Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
39th Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
40th Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
41st Shinbu-tai arrives at Takao
3rd Ind. AA Battalion arrives at Tokyo
28th Special Base Force arrives at Tokyo
4th Sentai arrives at Hiroshima/Kure
31st Special Base Force arrives at Tokyo
174th JAAF AF Bn arrives at Tokyo
193rd JAAF AF Bn arrives at Tokyo
ML G-605 arrives at Yokohama/Yokosuka
161st Division arrives at Shanghai
130th Division arrives at Canton
92nd Infantry Brigade arrives at Canton
3rd Base Force arrives at Tokyo
158th JAAF AF Bn arrives at Tokyo

Losses: none.

Ships Sunk:

PT-166 is reported to have been sunk near Bataan on Jan 13, 1945
Previous report of sinking of APA W.A. Holbrook incorrect. Intelligence reports ship is still in service
LST-219 is reported to have been sunk near Morotai on Sep 10, 1944
PT-224 is reported to have been sunk near Bataan on Jan 13, 1945
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Looks like we got a good amount of B-29 for this strike. At least keeping up with arrivals if strike frequency is twice a week.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/4/2014 2:41:32 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2779

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 3:20:05 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

Your Irving losses are why I don't build/field that plane much any more. I just don't see much difference in effect between the Irving and the Tojo on NF CAP, so I use the Tojo. Do you see much difference? I mean, I lose so many in A2A that it hardly matters and I'd rather lose a 1E than a 2E and one that I'm already in production on.

The only 2 that work for me are the Denko and the Randy 'c'. I can't really afford to put any IJN AG's to NF duty, so if I R&D an NF, the Randy is the only one I will do. Until then, I just use Tojo's.

What is your experience so far?

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 1/4/2014 4:21:09 PM >

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Pax

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2780

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 3:36:07 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Your Irving losses are why I don't build/field that plane much any more. I just don't see much difference in effect between the Irving and the Tojo on NF CAP, so I use the Tojo. Do you see much difference? I mean, I lose so many in A2A that it hardly matters and I'd rather lose a 1E than a 2E and one that I'm already in production on.

The only 2 that work for me are the Denko and the Randy 'c'. I can't really afford to put any IJN AG's to NF duty, so if I R&D an NF, the Randy is the only one I will do. Until then, I just use Tojo's.

What is your experience so far?

As seen by the total losses to the J1S1-Sa so far it is not too bad. Much better than the previous version without radar. It does get to the bombers, which is surprising considering the amount of speed differential. Shooting them down outright is not as frequent but damaging them happens virtually every contact.

I don't yet have the Randy 'c' but as you say I'm hoping this will be the best of the NF. The Denko looks great but is too far off in spite of my size 30 R n D factory. Probably won't arrive until about 9/45. Another wasted investment, but the hope was to try everything.

For me, against an opponent who sends out night bombing missions with the B-29s almost exclusively, and who always masses them, I can't have enough NF. I would have twice as many groups if I could! I would se most available airframes for NF that have decent armament. I'm still mad I can' t use the Nick Id NF.

As for using a day fighter on night Cap it's only a desperation measure early. They seem to be effective in slowing the strikes but not in shooting anything down, or damaging them, but lose often 30-50% of planes in the air during the strikes. Not sustainable for me. At least with Irvings (and other mediocre NF) I get almost a 1:1 loss ratio against the B-29s. Considering the state of remaining LI there is nothing I need more than more NF, and I might even try in desperation a few day fighter groups now to see what they do. Especially in manchuria where he's now using the B-29B.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 2781

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 5:40:18 PM

erstad

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline

quote:

I'd also be interested to know something of the Aztez games that went into 46, and I believe all of the way to the end, but the info on the Japanese side isn't there as his opponents didn't do AARs.

For aztez/erstad, around 2M supply as of 5/27/46. Which was "somewhat adequate". 2M sounds like a ton but by the time you add up minimum supply requirements for bases there's not a lot of excess. I had some local shortages because there wasn't enough to keep margin at all the bases and I spent a certain amount of time managing/fretting about supply, but I wasn't scraping the bottom of the rice barrel.

I tend to be modest in things like my industry expansion because I typically am in it for the long haul (particularly with aztez; we know our games are going to '46). But as you note, one of the challenges is guessing how things done in 42/43/44 are going to affect 45/46 given the paucity of documented games that get that far.

< Message edited by erstad -- 1/4/2014 6:40:42 PM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2782

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 7:08:04 PM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

As for using a day fighter on night Cap it's only a desperation measure early. They seem to be effective in slowing the strikes but not in shooting anything down, or damaging them, but lose often 30-50% of planes in the air during the strikes. Not sustainable for me. At least with Irvings (and other mediocre NF) I get almost a 1:1 loss ratio against the B-29s. Considering the state of remaining LI there is nothing I need more than more NF, and I might even try in desperation a few day fighter groups now to see what they do. Especially in manchuria where he's now using the B-29B.

Interesting ... I haven't seen that bad of losses with my Tojo's on NF CAP duty ... so maybe I am lucky or more likely it is because my opponent (Andy AI) uses a LOT of night bombing, but he doesn't mass them. He does however send them everywhere and at 7K - 9K elevation where the hit counts are high along with the damage unless I can disrupt the bomb runs ... so I have to have, even in mid-42 +20 fighter groups dedicated to NF duty .... a big drain for me and hurts my pilot training program.

_____________________________

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(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2783

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/4/2014 10:52:10 PM

FeurerKrieg

Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

Why can't you use the Nick d?

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Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2784

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/6/2014 5:55:22 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

Why can't you use the Nick d?

I'm out of Ha-31 engines. I simply didn't realize many of the FB groups would upgrade to NF, so I didn't allocate any engine building for this model.

_____________________________

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(in reply to FeurerKrieg)

Post #: 2785

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/6/2014 6:00:47 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

quote:

I'd also be interested to know something of the Aztez games that went into 46, and I believe all of the way to the end, but the info on the Japanese side isn't there as his opponents didn't do AARs.

For aztez/erstad, around 2M supply as of 5/27/46. Which was "somewhat adequate". 2M sounds like a ton but by the time you add up minimum supply requirements for bases there's not a lot of excess. I had some local shortages because there wasn't enough to keep margin at all the bases and I spent a certain amount of time managing/fretting about supply, but I wasn't scraping the bottom of the rice barrel.

I tend to be modest in things like my industry expansion because I typically am in it for the long haul (particularly with aztez; we know our games are going to '46). But as you note, one of the challenges is guessing how things done in 42/43/44 are going to affect 45/46 given the paucity of documented games that get that far.

Hey erstad. Thanks for the info.

Did aztez have a strat bombing campaign against the DEI and/or the Home Islands? When did he cut off the oil flow fro the DEI?

Due to strat bombing I'm about where you were with supply in 46 more than a year earlier.

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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 2786

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/6/2014 6:03:00 AM

FeurerKrieg

Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

I see - I made my own excel sheet to track all the upgrades and future engine needs. That way I know which engines I can shut off producion (to save HI) and which I can leave on to build a surplus for later on. Tracker has the same info, but I find building the sheet myself helps me understand it all much better. Plus it is easier to modify my sheet based on the aircraft production changes I make.

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Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 2787

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/6/2014 6:09:34 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I see - I made my own excel sheet to track all the upgrades and future engine needs. That way I know which engines I can shut off producion (to save HI) and which I can leave on to build a surplus for later on. Tracker has the same info, but I find building the sheet myself helps me understand it all much better. Plus it is easier to modify my sheet based on the aircraft production changes I make.

I actually was pretty well planned on the engines, which is why they are all used up!

I didn't know I'd want so many of ALL kinds of NF and NF groups at that point, or that the upgrades for the FB groups going to NF would need the Nick Id before the Randy Ic. It's just the first time through it all.

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Post #: 2788

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/6/2014 6:23:27 AM

FeurerKrieg

Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline

And I thank you - because it will make me look more carefully at the timing of the Nick d and the Randy Ic.

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Post #: 2789

RE: Wild Sheep Chase - 1/6/2014 9:35:04 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

And I thank you - because it will make me look more carefully at the timing of the Nick d and the Randy Ic.

It's not that I need the Nick Id to get to the Randy Ic, but I simply can't use those FB groups as NF until the Randy Ic which is still a month or two away.

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RE: Wild Sheep Chase