RFalvo69
Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Sources schmources. He can cite sources after the fact. But to then use those sources to put together an argument that is wholly subjective and only a fraction of the complicated explanation for failure? Nah. Source 1: spaghetti. Source 2: spaghetti. Source 3: spaghetti. Conclusion? Banana. Irrelevant conclusion based upon the source material.
But, as TIK points out, Beevor too falls in this trap. After hammering Horrocks over and over for being late at Nimegen, Beevor admits that the XXX Corps was actually on time and the crucial 36 hours were lost due to the need to capture the bridge from the Germans. So, if you are the first to admit that the XXX Corps was on time at Nimegen, contradicting yourself over and over is not the best way to make your case. You only make an obvious case of blame shifting.
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Heavy weighs the crown. All too often, divisional leaders or battalion or regimental leaders got the dirty end of the stick pointed at them when a poorly conceived 'shoestring' plan went belly up on them. I believe that operational / theater leadership needs to be where the buck stops, not the lower rungs of the leadership ladder.
Beevor himself makes the case that not capturing Nimegen's bridge timely was Browing's fault. However, as TIK points out, Gavin himself, in his own memories, says otherwise - a fact apparently ignored by Beevor. Why should Gavin, after the war, take responsibility for the mistake if he was actually acting under Browing's orders?
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After the war, Gavin and his staff were criticised for the decision to secure the high ground around Groesbeek before attempting the capture of the Waal bridge at Nijmegen. Browning took responsibility for this, noting that he "personally gave an order to Jim Gavin that, although every effort should be made to effect the capture of the Grave and Nijmegen bridges as soon as possible, it was essential that he should capture the Groesbeek Ridge and hold it".[73]
Is that a sufficient source for you?
With all due respect... from a Wiki?  TIK, at least, provides other (readily available) books for the viewer to check. And the above holds true: in his memories Gavin takes responsibility for the decision. What would be it, then? A delayed case of gallantry?
I'm not saying that TIK is infallible, or the new Messiah of WWII historiography. I like, however, how he researches different sources (a number of them based on only recently discovered materials) to challenge the sedimented perceptions about many issues surrounding WWII. At the very least, it gets your brain moving - and to exercise is always good, even for the brain.
_____________________________
"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"
(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")
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Printable Version
RE: What program/film/documentary are you watching now? - 
TIK's video has not convinced me to abrogate the attendant responsibility of the chain of command for things that go well, as expected or belly up. Memoirs after the fact certainly notwithstanding. 
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