RE: Reality check for all us JFBs

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Reality check for all us JFBs

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RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 4:21:06 PM

Commander Stormwolf

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A fighter that is being considered for production.
Basically an exact copy of the 3 He-100-D0 japan bought in 1940

A strange design, the He-100 airframe has only 3 slots for armament
1 gun (up to 20mm through the propeller shaft) and two guns in the wings
the cowling is so tight, that guns cannot be mounted on the nose

some believe this is a useless airplane, a vulnerable cooling system
with an unreliable engine that has poor altitude performance
the first fighter (since the 1st world war) to be mounted only with a single gun
(the two machine guns in the wings removed to save weight)

maneouverability is also poor, basically it is designed to show off its speed
and intimidate the allies to think japanese aviation is more advanced than it really is

Attachment (1)

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"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)

Post #: 61

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 4:31:12 PM

Commander Stormwolf

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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Attempt made to turn the Seiran into a fighter,
not very successful. the weight of the second crew member
replaced by a single gun, a 20mm MG 151 with mine shells,
less effective against armored targets, lethal against soft skinned
blenheims

flight performance is poor, but
useful to defend the submarine against marauding patrol planes

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 12/29/2011 4:33:55 PM >

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)

Post #: 62

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 4:57:00 PM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

I must have been mistaken when I thought I read the title of this thread as having something to do with reality.

All these nifty planes I see here would just be scrap metal target practice for my F2As and I-15bis since IRL at the front they'd have no spare parts or food for the crew/ground crew.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)

Post #: 63

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 5:00:05 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I must have been mistaken when I thought I read the title of this thread as having something to do with reality.

All these nifty planes I see here would just be scrap metal target practice for my F2As and I-15bis since IRL at the front they'd have no spare parts or food for the crew/ground crew.

The He-100 was reality though...in that Germany sold 12 examples to the IJN and the plans needed to produce them. Problem is, the machinery to produce never arrived in Japan, so the design was scrapped.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 64

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 5:07:41 PM

Dan Nichols

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Joined: 8/30/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Japanese player would have a lot more fun if ~

as I said:

1) choose what ships you want to lay down
2) select the TO&E of your ground forces
3) have some control to customize the AC designs

keep the ratio of Steel and Aluminum correct.
As it is, ships are more expensive than AC
Historically, Japan was pumping out carriers without any AC
to put on them

most people here have played out a few PBEM games of Witp regular and WITP:AE

the japanese admiral (yamamoto) could choose to build 20 sen toku submarines (like Yamamoto wanted),
or another Shinano carrier (Hull #4), just build Yamatos and no other carriers, or any other ships
he chooses, that is realistic since the axis commanders have 8 millions tons of steel per year,
and can spend them as they wished. If japan is winning the war, that amount may have increased to
12 million or so (and 50% more aluminum as well)

it would make AE more like an RTS, but remember even in a game like starcraft (minerals and vespene gas)
are separate. Ships and tanks cost minerals. Planes cost vespene gas.

*(the customization would be really fun, some type of 3D layout of the basic design and the player just sticks
armament onto them.. a "Koku Hombu" room where the player assigns specifications to the different AC design teams)

it was literally that simple.. historically those people in the Koku Hombo would just tell Horikoshi "stick a Sakae-12 engine
into your Reisen prototype" and a certain result would take place "put 20mm cannons in the wings with 60 rounds each"
"put this much fuel into it".. a set of player inputs causes a set of outputs

basically 2 things to summarize ~
1)makes steel and aluminum in the correct ratio
2) player control of ship prodcution, TO&E, and AC designs

it would make everyone the "japanese production fanboy"

As long as the Allies get to do the same thing.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)

Post #: 65

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 5:08:38 PM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

Japanese player would have a lot more fun if ~

as I said:

1) choose what ships you want to lay down
2) select the TO&E of your ground forces
3) have some control to customize the AC designs

keep the ratio of Steel and Aluminum correct.
As it is, ships are more expensive than AC
Historically, Japan was pumping out carriers without any AC
to put on them

most people here have played out a few PBEM games of Witp regular and WITP:AE

the japanese admiral (yamamoto) could choose to build 20 sen toku submarines (like Yamamoto wanted),
or another Shinano carrier (Hull #4), just build Yamatos and no other carriers, or any other ships
he chooses, that is realistic since the axis commanders have 8 millions tons of steel per year,
and can spend them as they wished. If japan is winning the war, that amount may have increased to
12 million or so (and 50% more aluminum as well)

it would make AE more like an RTS, but remember even in a game like starcraft (minerals and vespene gas)
are separate. Ships and tanks cost minerals. Planes cost vespene gas.

*(the customization would be really fun, some type of 3D layout of the basic design and the player just sticks
armament onto them.. a "Koku Hombu" room where the player assigns specifications to the different AC design teams)

it was literally that simple.. historically those people in the Koku Hombo would just tell Horikoshi "stick a Sakae-12 engine
into your Reisen prototype" and a certain result would take place "put 20mm cannons in the wings with 60 rounds each"
"put this much fuel into it".. a set of player inputs causes a set of outputs

basically 2 things to summarize ~
1)makes steel and aluminum in the correct ratio
2) player control of ship prodcution, TO&E, and AC designs

it would make everyone the "japanese production fanboy"

Japanese airframe production for the war totaled over 76,000 airframes...it was not a lack of planes, it was a lack of pilots. There were over 10,000 A6M variants built.

A lot of people fall into the trap of thinking that because there were no air groups for the carriers that there were no aircraft...the problem wasn't so much production as a lack of an effective training program. Now granted, the japanese could never hope to match the nearly 325,000 airframes produced by the US alone, but even more important was the inability to replace lost elite pilots, where the US had a steady supply of well trained (though not always elite) pilots.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)

Post #: 66

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 5:19:36 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

For most of the last half of 1942 the Japanese had slightly more than 2 divisions engaged in active operations in New Guinea and the Solomons and couldn't supply them adequately.

I hear ya about the logistical chain in the game being easier than IRL to support, spence, but you're understating the number of IJA / IJN troops in theatre substantially. Didn't the Japanese have troops engaged in 'active operations' in many parts of the Solomons, Rabaul, NG, etc. etc. in the SoPac? Not all of these were as wanting as you suggest for the troops along the Kokoda track / Buna / Buka, etc.

It's good to keep an eye on what happened IRL for gameplay sake and relevance to reality. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I'm pleased with the way that the game reflects this when played by two historically minded PBEM partners.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 12/29/2011 5:24:53 PM >

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(in reply to spence)

Post #: 67

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 6:19:37 PM

castor troy

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Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It's good to keep an eye on what happened IRL for gameplay sake and relevance to reality. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I'm pleased with the way that the game reflects this when played by two historically minded PBEM partners.

I think this and staying at reasonable numbers (which already implies the historically minded anyway) will give you the best entertainment and it won't "break" the game.

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(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 68

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 7:24:28 PM

Treetop64

Posts: 926
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I am constantly shrugging my head at all the players who insist on "realistic" play, "realistic" game code etc and then their play bears no resemblance to real world factors, of which the writing of 1500 letters to mothers fully captures what is "reality" in life.

Too many players around here criticise the real historical figures when the fact is that even the most incompetent historical figure was more qualified to cope with the real world pressures they faced than the egos of the virtual warlords here would allow.

Alfred

Man, you said it, brother.

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Post #: 69

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/29/2011 7:28:48 PM

Commander Stormwolf

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Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

First thing Japanese soldiers were told after basic training

"you are all dead already"

Japanese command behaved in the way of a 3rd world country that placed more value
on some rust piece of junk they called equipment than human life

so I would say reckless with lives is realistic for Japan, not for allies
in fact allies should lose political points for suffering major losses in lives,
whereas equipment was coming our of their ears by 1944.. you could even buy
a B-17 after the war ended

_____________________________

"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to Treetop64)

Post #: 70

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/30/2011 10:05:42 PM

FatR

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gr�fin Zeppelin

Well last time I checked Japan produced 75000 Aircraft frames of all types during the war. Thats roughly 100 000 engines in game terms so its hardly "twice as historical"

About 50 000 if we discount trainers, which aren't modelled in the game (except when you get to expend them as kamikazes). Does not make Stormwolf's arguments make any more sense, because no one will ever completely shut down every other area of production to make fighters. Until being surrounded at Home Islands in 1945 at least.

Then there is the pilot problem. You can actually completely exhaust your newbie pool under the current patch, in addition to plain unability to train them on map fast enough...

IMO, the main difference between AE and historical Japanese air production is 1943-44 expansion encompassing entirely or mainly newest aircraft types, resulting in considerably lesser than historical technological gap.

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(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

Post #: 71

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/30/2011 10:16:42 PM

FatR

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Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
In half the games in the AARs the Japanese Player lands and supplies (adequately) a dozen divisions in India while simultaneously expanding to the New Hebrides and Fiji meanwhile agonizing over whether to invade Australia or the Soviet Union next.

Care to do an actual AAR count to back up your words? Bonus points for not including Scen 2, you know, the one which gives Japan a ton of explicitly ahistorical extras in 1942

_____________________________

The Reluctant Admiral mod team.

Take a look at the latest released version of the Reluctant Admiral mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to spence)

Post #: 72

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/31/2011 12:43:58 AM

spence

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline

quote:

Care to do an actual AAR count to back up your words? Bonus points for not including Scen 2, you know, the one which gives Japan a ton of explicitly ahistorical extras in 1942

NOPE.

If any of the hyperbole in my statement offended anyone then they ought to just plain toughen up. The Japanese Player makes far too many "strategic choices" which have no basis whatever in logistic reality. Somebody got all hot and sweaty because I missed a battalion or two on garrison duty when I noted the difficulty Japan had supplying about 2 "active" divisions in SWPAC/Solomons in late 1942 as having a bearing on an invasion of the India at about twice the distance from Tokyo as SWPAC. Coincidentally, I checked and the title of this thread has something to do with reality.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)

Post #: 73

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/31/2011 2:42:14 AM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
Somebody got all hot and sweaty because I missed a battalion or two on garrison duty

Oh good grief...

Juvenile and pedantic hyperbole. I was merely calling out your unnecessary exaggeration. You don't need to exaggerate to make a valid point, Spence.

quote:

Coincidentally, I checked and the title of this thread has something to do with reality.

Yes. It also calls 'us JFBs' as the intended audience for a cautionary tale. You are not and have never been a JFB, so your presence here repeatedly plying your POV is redundant and-coincidentally-off topic in and of itself.

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Post #: 74

RE: Reality check for all us JFBs - 12/31/2011 3:44:00 AM

oldman45

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Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline

I think the JFB's should be able to build as many planes as they can, and find pilots where ever they can scrape them up. Just let us A-20 and B-25 fanboys have para-frags that work a close as possible to historic models.