SC's and other dismal showings against subs

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> SC's and other dismal showings against subs

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SC's and other dismal showings against subs - 11/15/2002 9:37:02 AM

gdpsnake

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Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
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I make task forces of Sc's and DD's (5-6 ships) set them on react to enemy and patrol and send them to hexes with spotted subs.

So far, my DD's have been attacked a few times AND NEVER RETURNED FIRE!

My Sc's have been slaughtered (Over 20 lost) by torpedoes and have YET TO HIT A SINGLE SUB! They rarely attack and do so ONLY after one of their own has been sunk!

I've put several types of A/C also on ASW 100% at 1000' and attacked one sub once for a miss.

The AI subs simply swarm around Noumea sinking stuff with torpedoes (NEVER SURFACED ONCE!!). Meanwhile my subs keep surfacing to fight EVERYTHING and getting shelled to death. What? Are my torpedoes made of platinum and not to be used while the AI torps are?

SO, my question is: What the heck is going on? Why are ASW forces SO LAME even in 2.0? Why won't my subs fire torpedoes?

Also, what sub commander in his right mind would even shoot at SC'S and DD's as oppossed to evading and waiting for the primary targets of surface ships (As the IJN did historically) or merchats (As the US did). Does the routine for attack need to be tweeked?

OR am I just not getting it?

"walking to Japan on the hulls of my SC's"

ABSOLUTELY SHOULD HAVE A TASK FORCE CHOICE FOR ASW OPS WHICH INCLUDES CVE's IN THE WAR IN THE PACIFIC GAME!!!

Post #: 1

- 11/15/2002 10:13:43 AM

CapAndGown

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Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Sounds like you need some of my opponent's DDs. They do one hell of job on my subs. ;)

Survival of the fittest is the way to go. Don't go out looking for the **** subs. Use the SCs to escort routine convoys to Luganville. They will get training that way, and it will be your AKs and APs, generally, taking damage. Although, with jap torp doctrine on, maybe the SC's will still die like flies. :D Anyway, those that live will become stronger. Eventually, they may even start using their DCs. :rolleyes:

Check out your DD's ASW value. The US has some DD's with an ASW rating of 8. You want to go hunt subs, or protect your carriers, use those puppies.

And as for the japs avoiding DD's: tell that to the guy who shot up the O'Brien just after waxing the Wasp. Now that was a ballsy move! (Morrison has an amazing picture of the O'Brien just as it was hit by the torp while Wasp is burning merrily away in the background.)

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 2

- 11/15/2002 11:12:30 AM

seydlitz_slith

Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
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When it comes to SCs, then I sometimes follow this phiilosophy:

1. If the enemy subs are off Noumea, then they could kill something valuable.

2. An SC is not valuable.

3. A sub has only 3 shots.

4. It's a long way back to port for the sub.

If I feed the SCs to a sub off Noumea either one at a time, or
in a combined TF, then the sub will use all 3 shots on a low value target. Then it goes home. Sometimes it misses, and the SC gets lucky and damages the sub (very rare). Either way, the sub is gone, and your other, more valuable ships can transit the path to Noumea.

Don

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 3

- 11/15/2002 12:05:19 PM

Yamamoto

Posts: 743
Joined: 11/21/2001
From: Miami, Fl. U.S.A.
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Also, don't forget that your chance of actually hitting (finding) a sub were cut in half in the 2.0 patch -- if you are playing as the Japanese that is.

Yamamoto

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 4

- 11/15/2002 12:12:02 PM

bobman5352

Posts: 10
Joined: 6/18/2002
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I usually get OK results from TFs of 3 DD + 1 PG + 6 SC. Form the TF, run it around the Hebrides to jack up exp for the SCs, then zip on over to sub sightings. You'll lose some SCs, but, especially in the daytime, you'll get some kills.

On a related note, I have a question. What is this "Mousetrap" device SCs use? It seems to work real well, whatever it is.

On an unrelated note, I have another question. What exactly is skip-bombing? I know how to do it in the game, but I don't know exactly what's happening? Are they bouncing the bombs along the water?

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 5

- 11/15/2002 12:13:33 PM

Von Rom

Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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In my current campaign I'm playing as the IJN, and the Allies have been using their SCs with deadly accuracy.

I never thought I'd see the day when SC's would take out a sub (especially mine).

Sub Chasers: they are fast; they are cunning.

They lurk behind the convoy ship; they pretend they mean no harm. . .

Forget Moby Dick; Sub Chasers are the terror of the deep. . .

Cheers!

_____________________________

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 6

- 11/15/2002 6:30:35 PM

angus

Posts: 103
Joined: 9/8/2002
From: Brussels
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bobman5352
[B]On a related note, I have a question. What is this "Mousetrap" device SCs use? It seems to work real well, whatever it is.[/B][/QUOTE]

It's half of a Hedgehog. There's a picture and description about three-quarters of the way down this page :- http://www.warships1.com/Weapons/WAMUS_ASW.htm

The Hedgehog/Mousetrap was good when it hit something but if it didn't hit nothing at all happened. Unlike DCs there was no nerve-wracking explosion and no minor damage from near misses. With a well trained crew Hedgehog could be very effective, for example the exploits of the DE [I]England[/I].

Cheers,

Angus

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 7

Experience is the key !!! - 11/15/2002 7:15:33 PM

Pawlock

Posts: 1041
Joined: 9/18/2002
From: U.K.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gdpsnake
[B]I make task forces of Sc's and DD's (5-6 ships) set them on react to enemy and patrol and send them to hexes with spotted subs.

So far, my DD's have been attacked a few times AND NEVER RETURNED FIRE!

My Sc's have been slaughtered (Over 20 lost) by torpedoes and have YET TO HIT A SINGLE SUB! They rarely attack and do so ONLY after one of their own has been sunk!

I've put several types of A/C also on ASW 100% at 1000' and attacked one sub once for a miss.

The AI subs simply swarm around Noumea sinking stuff with torpedoes (NEVER SURFACED ONCE!!). Meanwhile my subs keep surfacing to fight EVERYTHING and getting shelled to death. What? Are my torpedoes made of platinum and not to be used while the AI torps are?

SO, my question is: What the heck is going on? Why are ASW forces SO LAME even in 2.0? Why won't my subs fire torpedoes?

Also, what sub commander in his right mind would even shoot at SC'S and DD's as oppossed to evading and waiting for the primary targets of surface ships (As the IJN did historically) or merchats (As the US did). Does the routine for attack need to be tweeked?

OR am I just not getting it?

"walking to Japan on the hulls of my SC's"

ABSOLUTELY SHOULD HAVE A TASK FORCE CHOICE FOR ASW OPS WHICH INCLUDES CVE's IN THE WAR IN THE PACIFIC GAME!!! [/B][/QUOTE]

SC's early in game are crap, full stop. They are just extra target practice for the IJN. Mainly because thier experience is very low to start. Form 2 dd, 6 SC tf and have them patrol somewhere safe for a while. Add SC's to safe transport convoys. Anything to get thier experience up.

Once you have the ex up, form SC/dd tfs, and although may lose 1 to initial sub attack, the chances of spotting and attacking and killing subs are good then.

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 8

Mousetrap & Hedgehog - 11/15/2002 8:08:52 PM

tanjman

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Joined: 1/26/2002
From: Griffin, GA
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by angus
[B]The Hedgehog/Mousetrap was good when it hit something but if it didn't hit nothing at all happened. Unlike DCs there was no nerve-wracking explosion and no minor damage from near misses. With a well trained crew Hedgehog could be very effective, for example the exploits of the DE [I]England[/I].

Cheers,

Angus [/B][/QUOTE]

Angus,

The reason they were designed to only explode on contact is that underwater explosions (from a depth charge salvo) caused a wall of air bubbles to form which blocked sonar and it would take valuable time to reaquire the contact, which was sometimes lost. Also with hedgehog & mousetrap the ship could attack (with the bow pointing at) the sub contact with out losing it on sonar. With depth charges the ship had to pass over the contact thus losing it in its baffels.

_____________________________

Gunner's Mate: A Boatswain's Mate with a hunting license.

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 9

- 11/15/2002 8:18:47 PM

SoulBlazer

Posts: 839
Joined: 10/27/2002
From: Providence RI
Status: offline

And to answer another question asked herew, skip bombing was a special kind of bomb that would literaly 'skip' on the water to hit the side of the ship, either just above or below the surface. I think the Brits were the first to use it, but the US soon started to use it by early 1943 in the Pacific with deadly results. It had the advantage in that a bomber could use them to place a bomb in a weak area of the ship, like a torpeado hit, and there was very little the Japanese could do about it. Most skip bombing was used to attack Japanese convoys, with deadly results.

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 10

Re: Mousetrap & Hedgehog - 11/15/2002 8:22:37 PM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tanjman
[B]

Angus,

The reason they were designed to only explode on contact is that underwater explosions (from a depth charge salvo) caused a wall of air bubbles to form which blocked sonar and it would take valuable time to reaquire the contact, which was sometimes lost. Also with hedgehog & mousetrap the ship could attack (with the bow pointing at) the sub contact with out losing it on sonar. With depth charges the ship had to pass over the contact thus losing it in its baffels. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually the Hedgehog was designed to overcome the minimum range problem with sonar it could fire out past the minimum range of the sonar whereas with DCs you lost contact with the sub then passed over it then dropped the DCs. Thus the favorite tactic for subs was to wait till minimum range on the sonar and make a hard turn to port or starboard. This problem with Sonar was also over come by working ASW ships in teams of two one pinging with sonar the other attacking under the direction of the pinging ship. This system also allowed the first ship to reaquire the sub, after the noise of the underwater explosions subsided, more quickly. DON'T FORGET TO TAKE OFF THE SONAR HEAD PHONES BEFORE THE DC OR HEDGEHOGS GO OFF.

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 11

- 11/15/2002 8:34:27 PM

panda124c

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bobman5352
[B]
On an unrelated note, I have another question. What exactly is skip-bombing? I know how to do it in the game, but I don't know exactly what's happening? Are they bouncing the bombs along the water? [/B][/QUOTE]

Have you ever skipped a flat stone across the water? That is skip bombing. The bomb is delivered at low altitude and 'skipped' over the water to crash into the side of the target. This method is more accurate and easier to learn than glide bombing or level bombing and also allows a faster approach to the target thus decreasing the time that you are receiving fire. The Dam Busters �skipped� their bomb in to the side of the dams but this was a special setup to let the bomb settle against the wall of the dam. It was found that you could �skip� a regular bomb the same way (less the settling effect) into the side of a ship and with a delay fuse (so the ship did not blow up under your A/C) do considerable damage to thin skinned ships (transports, cargo, DDs, and other light warships). Biggest problem with skip bombing you had to pull up over the ship to clear the mast and if the AA gunners on the other ships knew it you were toast. A20 and B25 were the preferred A/C for this type of work. Oh yea then add in nose gun packs 8 to 14 .50 cal guns firing forward to discorage AA gunners, and you were hell on wings.

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Post #: 12

Subchasers - 11/15/2002 9:04:00 PM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Greetings, I believe a ship must have a rating over 40 to attack a sub. The subchasers all start in the 20's and 30's night rating (they do ok if sub tries daylight attack) You must train the SC's by sailing them back and forth between Noumea and L'ville early in the game (before IJN subs arrive in area) They gain 1-2 points every 10-14 days of such sailing. Then to hunt subs take the ones that have gotten over 40 and add a DD or two with rating over 40 and your ready to move to spotted subs hex. (result early on is sub attacks one of the TF and rest then counter attack. I place such groups at each of my bases as I train enough DD and SC. The PG do not seem to make good hunters (16k speed) but once trained can escort slower (less the 14k) TF's.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 13

- 11/16/2002 4:48:25 AM

mdiehl

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Joined: 10/21/2000
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Sounds like a separate ASW rating is needed. Since there is no difference between day and night ASw against submerged targets, having DDs *not* attacking contacts because someone made a bad assumption about their training is silly.

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Post #: 14

- 11/16/2002 4:58:57 AM

Pawlock

Posts: 1041
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From: U.K.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mdiehl
[B]Sounds like a separate ASW rating is needed. Since there is no difference between day and night ASw against submerged targets, having DDs *not* attacking contacts because someone made a bad assumption about their training is silly. [/B][/QUOTE]

Biggest problems with ASW is spotting, once spotted subs are normally attacked in some form or other.

Theres a vast difference in ASW in Night and day, isnt that why the germans normally attacked at night? Harder to spot a periscope or surfaced sub at night ,than day surely.

This is another reason in game , that the first the player knows of a sub, its already hit or fired at its prey. A counter attack against the sub is then normally initiated.

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- 11/16/2002 5:24:16 AM

mdiehl

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Germans routinely attacked at night during the early going because they often made their attacks surfaced. Gave them higher speed, better chances to maneuver &c. Also made them less easy to detect via sonar. When radar became common it became harder to attack on surface undetected. When 10cm radar became common underwater was the only way to make the attack.

[QUOTE]This is another reason in game, that the first the player knows of a sub, its already hit or fired at its prey. A counter attack against the sub is then normally initiated.[/QUOTE]

Hope that's not how the game resolves sub detection (sub is undetected until it shoots). Should be little chance of a sub making a surfaced daylight attack on an escort (can't imagine a skipper doing it anyhow, it's suicidal). So it's got to be a submerged attack during day. In that event, should be a probabilistic detection likelihood based on the number of escorts (assuming all have sonar). Night surface attack's success will depend on radar. Allied and IJN submarine training and tactics were quite different. Generally Allied escorts were exceedingly good at locating subs, surfaced or not, when they thought one was present. (Not so great at hitting them with depth charges, but that's a function of the weapon.) Allied escorts drilled incessantly at ASW prior to the war. Radar or rdf was usually the first indicator that subs were out there. IJN escorts of course never had much radar or rdf capability or training.

Really, escorts, especially Allied escorts, should be far more dangerous to submarines than the reverse.

There is an excellent and ancient board game on this ("Submarine" by Avalon Hill).

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 16

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