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RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T6

 
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RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T6 - 2/13/2012 9:11:32 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Roughs and urban hexes are also your friends.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 61
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T6 - 2/13/2012 9:25:54 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the T6 Soviet moves. I pulled back almost everywhere. Also, I did a boat-load of bombing of Axis units.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 62
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T6 - 2/13/2012 9:30:02 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's T6 Soviet production:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 63
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/13/2012 9:52:17 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the losses from the Axis half of T7:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 64
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/13/2012 10:28:37 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the Axis T7 moves:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 65
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/13/2012 10:37:50 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I just this turn noticed this guy. Either he spawned there or he's a straggler that I never noticed before. Anybody want the saved game for this situation?




Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 66
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/13/2012 11:30:47 PM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
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Status: offline 		Mountain divisions do not spawn; that's a straggler you forgot about and will die soon.

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Post #: 67
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 12:01:43 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		This should be the Soviet T7 moves:






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 2/14/2012 12:04:26 AM >

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 68
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 1:06:10 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Southwest Front HQ looks overloaded.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 69
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 1:40:25 AM   
AFV


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		You mentioned you moved some HI out- but as I understand it really counts for nothing so why rail it out?

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 70
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 2:20:18 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		I don't understand why you willingly walked out of the swamps south of lake Ilmen.  It's like you're willingly abandoning the forts god gave you!

The combat value of each defending unit is modified by multiplying the CV by one plus the total fortification defense modifier, which is the sum of the terrain modifier and the fort level. For example, a defending unit in a swamp (terrain modifier of two) with a fortification level of zero would have its CV multiplied by three (1+2+0) during combat. 
Force him to pay MP to fight, and pay to move into the swamp.  Just forcing him to commit more than one division to the attack a victory in the context of '41 for the Soviet.

The lower Dnepr is bare.  In my view you should be screening on the west side and digging in on the east.
Man the hills and forests around Cherkassy, and start preparing successive lines behind the rivers south of it to increase the MP cost to get to the D-Z line.
Also most of the cities don't have a garrison yet.  I think a against a human you'd be asking for a hole to be punched in that line and several cities to be taken at essentially no cost.  The AI seems to play a little more timid to avoid losing units to encirclement (I'm not sure how/if it is (or can be) coded to understand the severe constraints ZOC places on Soviets in '41), but I'd practice good habits against it regardless.
Also worthwhile in my view to build forts on the Neva river line so you can get that defensive value up east of Leningrad and prevent cutting of the supply lines.  I used some other tricks to keep my opponent from getting there in time, but I wish I'd built those forts a lot sooner to get the fortification level up.  With a good general, reserves, and the heavy penalty of crossing a major river, you might be able to get some critical delay to keep pressure off Moscow.

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 71
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 3:01:09 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw
Southwest Front HQ looks overloaded.

It is.

Here's the losses from the Axis half of turn 8:






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 2/14/2012 3:02:45 AM >

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 72
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 3:01:46 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV
You mentioned you moved some HI out- but as I understand it really counts for nothing so why rail it out?

I had a brain fart.

This should be the Axis moves from T8: The Axis forces finally took Riga and lookie lookie the AI made a pocket. I guess I defended
too far foward this time.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 2/14/2012 3:09:13 AM >

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 73
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 3:32:16 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Leaving bad tank divisions forward means they are liable to rout ( which can mean disbanding with an 11 week delay ) or shatter. This will slow down the process of collecting together good tank corps.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 74
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T8 - 2/14/2012 4:13:28 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's a close-up of that "pocket". I thought it was a pocket but on closer inspection I find that it's an almost-pocket. It's a pocket that's
forming even as we speak. I bunched up all the guys that appear trapped and made them harder to just "run over" and hopefully they
will buy me some time to finish railing in the troops and start digging on the west side of Moscow.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 75
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 4:15:17 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw
Leaving bad tank divisions forward means they are liable to rout ( which can mean disbanding with an 11 week delay ) or shatter. This will slow down the process of collecting together good tank corps.

D'oh. Good catch my friend. All this good advice is making me a better player, hopefully. Keep it coming......please. I'll move the tanks to the rear so they will be in better shape when they finally get a chance to convert to corps.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 76
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 4:16:16 AM   
Seminole


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You failed to defend in depth
You failed to defend the forests and swamps
You failed to setup a line behind the Dnepr
You failed to cover HQs and airbases that were way to close the line for this time frame
You clustered your units for easy pocketing



"Thanks for all the fuel and supplies!"
Sincerely,
H. Guderian
Panzergruppe 2


Comrade Stalin has asked for you to report personally to the Kremlin and explain these failures.






(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 77
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 4:38:01 AM   
Seminole


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The red circles are where you're asking your men to defend at 1/2 to 1/3rd the strength they could fight at from compared to the green circles.
There is NO reason to not have men in the cities after the 3rd or 4th week of the war.
By 'defense in depth' I don't mean two lines spaced by 10 miles.
I mean more like 60 miles of units spaced in the best terrain available to force the Germans to absorb EZOC costs when they move to burn up their MP.  Terrain has the added advantage of hiding your strength (and sometimes even units!) more effectively than sitting out in the grass.
The panzers are going to go where they want at this stage in the war.
Stop worrying about straight, pretty, contiguous lines that put your men out in the open and get your men under cover.
Their mothers will thank you.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 78
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T8 - 2/14/2012 5:47:24 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		This should be the Soviet moves from T8: I did a lot of pulling back and shifting of troops from one front to another. The Bryansk
front is now active and I've employed it. That and the Reserve front.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 79
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 5:50:29 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Stop worrying about straight, pretty, contiguous lines that put your men out in the open and get your men under cover.
Their mothers will thank you.

The annotated picture you have provided has turned the lights on in my head. NOW I'm starting to get it. Thank you ever so much.
I'm going to try to do this from now on.

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 80
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 6:16:40 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		This should be the losses from the Axis half of T9:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 81
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 6:48:31 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		This is the Axis moves in T9:




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 82
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 7:59:54 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah, that area directly north of Smolensk is bad to defend.

I look at the map and see areas where a decent defensive line can be made, starting from the north:

South of Leningrad there's a few rough hexes, then heading southeast to Novgorod there are swamps; a reasonably good division in one of those spots will hold against hasty attacks by a single German division.

On the other side of Lake Ilmen you have a river, with the Valdai Hills to the east, then running southeast a few more rivers, light forests and some swamps to the area reaching south of Vyazma.

From there you have the Bola river passing by Bryansk, curving west to Chernigov.

This is a very defendable line, which you can establish before the Germans get there, it's beyond the Axis start line, meaning there will be a few turns of those Germans moving forward beyond supply radius. By the time the first units get there they won't be in strength, and you'll have some time digging in and resting.

Again, a decent ( rifle ) division, around 50+ experience, in a rough, urban, or swamp hex, with a fort level built maybe to 2, will hold against a hasty attack by a single German division. This can provide time for bad divisions ( 25 or 30 experience ) to train up to something kind of useable for defense ( about 40 or 45 ).

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 83
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 8:27:45 AM   
randallw

 

Posts: 2057
Joined: 9/2/2010
Status: offline 		Defense modifiers by terrain:

Clear +0 ( squat, nothing! )
City +2
Light urban +6 ( +3 if isolated )
Heavy urban ( +8 ) ( +4 if isolated )
Light woods +1
Heavy woods +2
Rough +3
Mountain +3
Swamp +2

So, don't just sit in the open!

Also look out for this:

15.6.2.3. Terrain CV Modifier
AFV and combat vehicle type ground elements will have their CV (26.1.4) reduced by half when attacking or defending in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes. Infantry type ground elements will have their CV doubled when in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes.
Mountain units have their CV doubled in mountain hexes, no matter what the weather. Ski units will have their combat value (CV) doubled in snow and tripled in blizzard (22.1).

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 84
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 8:34:30 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

<SNIP>

and lookie lookie the AI made a pocket. I guess I defended too far foward this time.


This is what I have been waiting for!


Questions:

#1
Was Axis AI too ambitious with that pocket making?

#2
Were Axis units that tried to make that pocket in vulnerable exposed position (i.e. could you surrounded them)?

#3
Do you think that, overall, this was good move by AI (if you take into considerations the next few moves)?



Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 85
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 11:47:31 AM   
AFV


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Defense modifiers by terrain:

Clear +0 ( squat, nothing! )
City +2
Light urban +6 ( +3 if isolated )
Heavy urban ( +8 ) ( +4 if isolated )
Light woods +1
Heavy woods +2
Rough +3
Mountain +3
Swamp +2

So, don't just sit in the open!

Also look out for this:

15.6.2.3. Terrain CV Modifier
AFV and combat vehicle type ground elements will have their CV (26.1.4) reduced by half when attacking or defending in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes. Infantry type ground elements will have their CV doubled when in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes.
Mountain units have their CV doubled in mountain hexes, no matter what the weather. Ski units will have their combat value (CV) doubled in snow and tripled in blizzard (22.1).



If I understand it right- if you're in a light woods hex, with 0 fort level, your CV is doubled? (+1 +1) = 2x
And light woods with fort level of 1, then its tripled (+1 +1 +1) = 3x

Do I have this right?

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 86
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 2:30:39 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

If I understand it right- if you're in a light woods hex, with 0 fort level, your CV is doubled? (+1 +1) = 2x
And light woods with fort level of 1, then its tripled (+1 +1 +1) = 3x

Do I have this right?


Yes. I think (from the main lines of resistance I see created in AARs) that a lot of people overlook these natural forts.
Artillery and engineers/sappers can reduce man made fortification values, but not god's.


(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 87
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T7 - 2/14/2012 3:40:55 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

BTW, can you please post the savegame files:

- Soviet turn before encirclement try (So Turn #007 if I am not mistaken)
- Axis turn before encirclement try (Ax Turn #008 if I am not mistaken)
- Soviet turn after encirclement try (So Turn #008 if I am not mistaken)


Thanks in advance Larry!


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 88
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 6:35:29 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
#1
Was Axis AI too ambitious with that pocket making?

No, not at all. I was hoping to see this behavior all along and the AI finally did it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

#2
Were Axis units that tried to make that pocket in vulnerable exposed position (i.e. could you surrounded them)?

As a matter of fact I DID surround one of the pocket sealers. It didn't do much good as far as I can tell but it felt good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
#3
Do you think that, overall, this was good move by AI (if you take into considerations the next few moves)?

I think this was an excellent move on the part of the AI. I've got about 6 or 7 divisions isolated and it doesn't look like I can
extricate them either. Moves like this make the game better.

Here's the saved game from turn 7:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 89
RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson T9 - 2/14/2012 6:36:24 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Here's the saved game from turn 8:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 90
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