RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades

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RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/9/2012 11:07:44 AM

aspqrz02

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You may well be right. Still, the Infantry need to be removed or replaced somehow ... and, as you say, the entrenchment value for artillery probably needs to be reduced or their base defense value does.

Phil

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Post #: 61

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/9/2012 11:25:06 AM

alex0809

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Though that would also mean that AT and AA will die faster when they are attacked WITH infantry support in the same hex and I don't know if I would find that much better...

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Post #: 62

RE: Something really wrong with lone AT and Arty units ... - 8/9/2012 12:20:20 PM

elmo3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

In which case there are almost 3x too many trucks, just for a start

Not to mention whether counting the personnel of the unit as infantry and allowing them to simultaneously man the guns (of which there are 5 too many of each, Light and Heavy) is double counting

Fixable, certainly

Phil

In the game a Soviet artillery and anti-tank unit is called a "Group". As such I don't think they are meant to be any specific size unit and are more an abstraction than an actual historical formation. In fact the artillery units don't have any size indicator on them. Putting the battalion symbol on the AT units is confusing at best.

At the start of Barbarossa the Soviets used large AT brigades at the operational level consisting of over 5000 men, about 120 guns, and other elements like anti-aircraft guns, tractors, motorcycles, and armored cars. These formations got pretty beat up early in the war and were quickly reorganized into AT regiments. Those regiments underwent several more reorganizations in the following months, being split into heavy and light units later in 1941. By April/May of '42 they were "standardized" into 5 batteries of four 76mm or 45mm guns each. I believe in July of '42 a sixth battery was added to each regiment. I put standardized in quotes because of course there were many non-standard configurations based on what was really available to any given Front. There were also some heavy AT regiments designed to combat the German heavy tanks that consisted of 5 batteries of 15 107mm AT guns. Later in '42 I believe there was another reorg where AT divisions were created. No doubt there were other changes beyond the time period covered by the game.

The point of all this is simply to say that IMHO the Soviet AT (and artillery) units in the game are, of necessity, an abstraction. It's pointless to argue over how many trucks or men or even guns they should have because their real life counterparts were in a constant state of flux in the early period of the campaign and it does not appear Vic has chosen to model those AT brigades/regiments/divisions directly anyway.

So I think you are missing the forest by trying to count the individual trees, not that I expect you to agree of course. I do think Vic made the right decision by abstracting these units.

Edit - Since the Soviet artillery and anti-tank groups are subordinate to an Army I suggest they get an Army (XXXX) designation. It might help clear up some confusion.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 8/9/2012 12:53:40 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/9/2012 5:54:27 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

One thing I really like about the DCCB forum has been the calm, open, friendly and constructive tone adopted by everyone. I certainly hope it continues and that we don't go the way of some other threads on this site (for which I share the blame!)

+1 :)

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Post #: 64

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/9/2012 9:26:47 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

You may well be right. Still, the Infantry need to be removed or replaced somehow ... and, as you say, the entrenchment value for artillery probably needs to be reduced or their base defense value does.

Phil

Please take look at this and let me have your comments: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3146725&mpage=6#

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Post #: 65

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 2:16:23 AM

aspqrz02

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex0809
Though that would also mean that AT and AA will die faster when they are attacked WITH infantry support in the same hex and I don't know if I would find that much better...

I don't know, does it mean that?

I've looked at the description of combat in the rules and it does not indicate one way or another. And, if damage is done by the strength of the constituent elements within a unit, then, as noted elsewhere, the Artillery elements are probably far too strong.

If you are correct it would be a problem, to some degree. Perhaps a great degree.

Of course, it would encourage the correct use of artillery ... behind the front lines, supporting the infantry and armour, rather than *in* the front lines (that's for the Infantry Guns and the like in the actual Infantry Regiments or Armour Regiments).

The problem is, at this scale, that the artillery *should* be deployable in the same hex, given that it's what, 20-25 klicks across? At that scale, the artillery would be still behind the lines, nominally. Even if it's a 10-15 klick hex (it doesn't actually seem to say in the manual anywhere, anyone know hex size?), the artillery would still nominally be behind the infantry.

Given the scale, having the divisional artillery a hex behind the division would be unrealistic, though it would work.

I dunno, perhaps infantry/armour regiments in the same hex could take a larger proportion of any damage inflicted unless/until they are broken/retreat and leave the artillery in the same hex "uncovered"?

I don't know whether any of this could be done within the system or, more importantly, could be done *easily* within the system ... so it may all be problematic.

Another option would be to reduce the "dig in" rate and maximum entrenchment value achievable by artillery units outside of fortifications and, perhaps, towns and cities ... but that would be suboptimal, I suspect.

Lots of possible solutions and ten times as many possible problems

Phil

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Post #: 66

RE: Something really wrong with lone AT and Arty units ... - 8/10/2012 2:23:12 AM

aspqrz02

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Regardless of reorganisations and etc. there are too many trucks for the number of men and number of artillery pieces in the unit, almost three times too many.

I suppose it may be because the trucks being represented are not as capable as the real life trucks being used (that is, trucks = light + medium + heavy in real life, with different carrying capacities, but in DCCB they are all treated as generic, with an averaged capacity? Who knows!)

Still, the single AT Battalion has 60% of the trucks of a Russian Motor Rifle Regiment in the DCCB TO&E, which seems really excessive.

YMMV

Phil

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Post #: 67

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 5:07:59 AM

krupp_88mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

anyone know hex size?)

I didn't read it, but comparing the game map to real maps, it looks right about at 10km per hex

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Post #: 68

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 5:50:29 AM

aspqrz02

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OK. Even at 10 klicks per hex that means that Divisional Artillery should be, nominally, at the "rear" of the hex while the Divisional Infantry/Armour/Mech/Motor/Cavalry (or whatever) Regiments are at the front. Even assuming the Division is surrounded and attacked concentrically, there should at least be a fair chance that the combat elements are deployed (or will be deployed, considering it's a 2 day turn) to defend the artillery.

Which means that it all boils down to whether the game system could be tuned to take losses from combat units before any from artillery *if* the artillery are in a hex with said combat units ... or whether it would be easy to do this.

Both or neither may be true/false.

And Vic may deem that both/neither are not needed based on how he sees the system operating of course!

Phil

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Post #: 69

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 12:46:06 PM

elmo3

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Artillery on both sides of a battle would be vulnerable to some counter battery fire so there should be some chance for guns to be lost even if supported by other units in a hex. This may already be modeled as there have been battles where I lost some organic arty as the defender even if we held the hex. Whether that was counter battery or the attacker breaking through to the arty and then getting pushed back is hard (impossible?) to say. No idea if that is revealed in the details as I rarely look at that report

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Post #: 70

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 3:48:26 PM

aspqrz02

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It probably represents losses due to counterbattery fire. Even in WW2 with only Flash and Sound Ranging, you could rely on some damage done to enemy artillery. If you held the hex, and you were attacking, there shouldn't be any losses to the Artillery in the Artillery Regiment from enemy counterattacks, as they'll be unlikely to get anywhere near them, as they'll be at least several klicks behind the front.

What artillery you *will* lose, even if you attack and hold the hex, will be the *infantry guns* attached to the Infantry Regiments in direct support, as these typically deployed in or close to the front and were, therefore, more vulnerable. They were often used over open sights (i.e. firing at things they could actually see ... "reach out and touch someone!" ... rather than indirectly, as would be the case for the Divisional Artillery, even if of the same caliber).

That's what happens(ed) in "real life" (tm) ... whether it is exactly that way in DCCB or not, I am not sure.

Phil

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RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 10:48:19 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

OK. Even at 10 klicks per hex that means that Divisional Artillery should be, nominally, at the "rear" of the hex while the Divisional Infantry/Armour/Mech/Motor/Cavalry (or whatever) Regiments are at the front. Even assuming the Division is surrounded and attacked concentrically, there should at least be a fair chance that the combat elements are deployed (or will be deployed, considering it's a 2 day turn) to defend the artillery.

Which means that it all boils down to whether the game system could be tuned to take losses from combat units before any from artillery *if* the artillery are in a hex with said combat units ... or whether it would be easy to do this.

Both or neither may be true/false.

And Vic may deem that both/neither are not needed based on how he sees the system operating of course!

Phil

Artillery/AT is represented as a rear area SFTYPE. so it shouldn't typically(there is some randomness involved) get hit until the front line units (infantry, mg, etc) gets hit. There are certain circumstances where that is not the case though. Divebombers as an example

The stuka here you see it's favorite targets (FAV=#). It will try to find things to blow up from highest fav to lowest fav. So you see guns are high on the list. So if you're in a hex with Arty the db's will try to hit the guns before the artillery.

The less infantry you have as meatshields the more chance you have of a rear area SFTYPE getting hit. But again there is randomness so sometimes you'll see oddities.

< Message edited by bwheatley -- 8/10/2012 10:51:12 PM >

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RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/10/2012 10:49:18 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Artillery on both sides of a battle would be vulnerable to some counter battery fire so there should be some chance for guns to be lost even if supported by other units in a hex. This may already be modeled as there have been battles where I lost some organic arty as the defender even if we held the hex. Whether that was counter battery or the attacker breaking through to the arty and then getting pushed back is hard (impossible?) to say. No idea if that is revealed in the details as I rarely look at that report

It looks like counterbattery fire is enabled. You should see that when you try to do arty barrages against an Artillery unit you might get some of your guns destroyed in return fire.

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RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/11/2012 2:00:01 AM

aspqrz02

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Yeah, airpower is an equal opportunity nuisance ... it is no respecter of front lines. Which is, of course, as it should be!

Phil

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RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/11/2012 11:28:33 AM

Redmarkus5

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Artillery units in PanzerKreig 5 will no longer have much front line combat potential.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3146725&mpage=7#

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RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/11/2012 12:38:55 PM

aspqrz02

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Which is as it should be! Well done!

Phil

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Post #: 76

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/11/2012 7:39:31 PM

alex0809

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
Artillery/AT is represented as a rear area SFTYPE. so it shouldn't typically(there is some randomness involved) get hit until the front line units (infantry, mg, etc) gets hit.

Then of course I take back my complaint that this might result in more unrealistic artillery casualties, I didn't know that such a system is in place.
I'd say there isn't any good reason why artillery shouldn't be weaker then?

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Post #: 77

RE: Soviet AT Artillery Brigades - 8/11/2012 7:47:41 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: alex0809

quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley
Artillery/AT is represented as a rear area SFTYPE. so it shouldn't typically(there is some randomness involved) get hit until the front line units (infantry, mg, etc) gets hit.

Then of course I take back my complaint that this might result in more unrealistic artillery casualties, I didn't know that such a system is in place.
I'd say there isn't any good reason why artillery shouldn't be weaker then?

Well the physical guns (56MMAT SFTYPE..etc) are read line troops. But the infantry component are front line guys. Each piece of a unit is modeled seperated.

So example an AT gun would be (example)

10 x Infantry (front line troops)
2 x 56mm AT gun (rear line troops)
2 x Infantry gun (rear line troops)

Just trying to be specific in case there was any confusion. :)

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Post #: 78