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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/22/2012 10:36:59 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Gazing in to my crystal ball here is what I think will happen assuming Pelton does not surrender before hand.

I will conduct a continuous series of attacks simply to keep the German OOB to less than or around 4 million during the course of 1942. I won't care how many guys I loose as long as my OOB remains at around 7.5 million or more. I should be able to do this as I have plenty of guys to rotate in and out of the line to maintain morale of around 50. I have basically got 1941 levels of manpower and stacks of ARM. During this period I will be building a pile of INF Corp as I will have nothing else to spend AP on as Pelton has gone turtle. Late 42 I will build a pile of Art XX.

In 1943 I will then launch in to a serious grind that will slowly edge towards Berlin but its main aim will be to cut the German OOB down to around than 3 million or less and drive his average morale down to less than 70.

In the first half of 1944 I will shatter the German front and pour through his lines and charge on to Berlin by December. With the first half of 1945 as a buffer if anything should go wrong.

There is nothing he can do to stop this. He has no more territory to play with. He wasted it all in his retreat to Poland, not mention the massive manpower boost he has given me in recaptured manpower centres. He thought he would regain it all back again in summer 42. But I am too strong for him to push back.

I will be able to launch wave after wave of attackers to crack his fort lines and Panzer reserves. As the war goes on his Army will get weaker and mine stronger. A snowball will develop and he will be mercilessly crushed.

His attitude reminds me of the steamroller scene from 'A Fish called Wanda', with Pelton as Otto and myself at the helm of the steamroller as KKKK..KK..K..Ken

I have foreseen it…. we shall have a great victory…..

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/22/2012 11:31:15 PM   
horza66

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline 		I don't disagree with anything said here about Pelton's prospects, but I think an opportunity is being missed here to discuss how best to deal with his likely defensive strategy. As per various posts, he'll work a two infantry corps, one panzer corps army setup, using high initiative leaders to ensure plenty of reserve activations. This is an ideal situation for a Soviet player to build the right force mix and tactics to respond to that defence.

Is it best to use wave after wave of brigade formations to build up fatigue, and use up activations? Or to strike with maximum numbers of artillery divisions, and with soviet mech forces on reserve status also?

One factor is your lack of opportunity for Guard promotions so far. Human wave and echeloned attacks might give some wins for the right units if well timed, but my immediate thought is - how about you pick on the Finns?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 1:41:29 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		IMO this strategy employed by Pelton should be outlawed by a Auto Victory Level in March 42. This strategy is outside the scope of this game IMO. Hitler would have never gone for this. Its a fantasy scenario that should be optional for those wishing to try it out. I will not play another game as Soviet without some house rules for an auto victory level as above. It's a damn boring game and I NEVER EVER want to go thru it again. Once is enough. I have no problem with Axis players going defensive post mid 43 but this turn turtle attitude from Sept 41 is crap. It's not why I play this game. This game has devolved in to a mathematical exercise. Sure it one I will win but thats no substitue for FUN. This is not fun. I honestly do not know why someone playing German would wish to do this. To play out 200 plus turns hoping to merely survive.... its nuts.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 2:18:17 AM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		I agree; life is short. Find an opponent willing to play.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 2:56:23 AM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Yes Mark, I concur. But I am not letting him off the hook.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 3:23:08 AM   
timmyab

 

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Status: offline 		It's clear to me you've won this game and Pelton should probably resign at this point, but in the absence of that I think I'd be tempted to offer a draw at this stage and put the whole thing down to experience.Games are meant to be fun.Just think, if he accepts the draw and wants to play the return match you could be planning Barbarossa this time tomorrow.Much more fun.
I think this game illustrates the need for some sort of VP system in the campaign game both to encourage players to act within an historic framework and also to allow one sided games to finish early, or at least to add some excitement and purpose to those games.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 4:23:55 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I doubt many German players are going to wish to repeat what Pelton is doing here after seeing the results of this game.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 6:09:58 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

I doubt many German players are going to wish to repeat what Pelton is doing here after seeing the results of this game.


I agree but what I don't get is why anyone would even want to do it?



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 9:21:45 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I agree but what I don't get is why anyone would even want to do it?


The blizzard scare...

But worse than that was definitely the potential to regrow your Army with the manpower centers you regain. So one thought I take from here is that retreating to Poland is short-sighted if you have not cut down to Red Army so much that even with added manpower it cannot be overrun next spring again. And if you cut it down so much anyway, there is no reason not do the unusual slow fighting withdrawal. So there is actually no real case to do it at all...

If the Red Army stopped you in your tracks, like Pelton got stuck in the Valdai with his whole center of gravity, and is strong come winter, you are in a bad position, but retreating all the way immediately will not make it better... Better a slow and steady withdrawal where terrain or Mountain divs cannot help. Fortunately the Soviets in 42 are not as powerful and mobile with respect to the still veteran Wehrmacht as they inverse in summer 41.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 10:43:56 AM   
horza66

 

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Status: offline 		I need to clarify: I'm not suggesting we consider the ideal force/operational mix for dealing with a Sept '41 defensve strategy by the germans. That requires no special strategy to counter - it's clearly disastrous for the Germans.

I'm suggesting getting the right balance of force and tactics to deal with Pelton's defensive strategy of relying on massed panzers on reserve duties to get hold results. With the Soviets under no pressure in '42 it should be possible to find the ideal counter to this reliance on reserve panzers.

With very low unit casualties I'd suggest that Soviet artillery strength will be at an all time high, and these guns would be best deployed in artillery divisions that can be concentrated in a portion of the front where a program of attrition can be started. It may be possible to start this process relatively early by foccussing on the Finnish front.

Alternately a "human wave" strategy of brigades attacking in echelon to raise fatigue levels and use up reserve activations could guarantee a hex-by-hex advance, when the Germans are very short of hexes.

I realise that Pelton's strategic mistake makes for a very boring game, and I honour MT for not letting him get an undeserved draw out of it. However there can still be points of strategic interest in a tactically boring game.


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 11:12:24 AM   
sillyflower


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Status: offline 		I don't think this is boring at all. I would love to be in your shoes Michael, grinding him slowly but inexorably into the dust. Happy to take over if you ever get fed up

Ther again, I really liked the Avalon Hill board game called 1914 or guns of august or something. corps/division level game and almost every combat resulted in equal losses on both sides, and capturing 6 hexes in a single turn was not to be sneezed at.

I wonder why I became a lawyer

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 4:31:40 PM   
KamilS

 

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quote:

Michael T

Its a fantasy scenario that should be optional for those wishing to try it out. I will not play another game as Soviet without some house rules for an auto victory level as above.



I guess introducing "sudden death option" for Axis in '41, option that is not connected to VP would require balancing act in introducing similar rule guaranteeing Red side will try to fight.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 11/23/2012 4:33:36 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 6:03:54 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: horza66
I realise that Pelton's strategic mistake makes for a very boring game, and I honour MT for not letting him get an undeserved draw out of it. However there can still be points of strategic interest in a tactically boring game.


Yes, there still interesting things to be seen here -- Micheals perhaps means boring in the sense that first for a long interlude little will actually occur, and then in the end the result can likely be considered known already since May 42.

I'd leaning to using the Arty Divs, and then use a few smaller elements to cause disruption before the main attack. Just like using sequential probing attacks as a German before the main assault e.g. if you open LG's back door. I never tried, because I prefer restricting myself to more realism, aka. make every life count and not seeing the game as a game with just counters and numbers -- thought ultimately the struggle was probably nothing else than a numbers game.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/23/2012 6:29:00 PM   
juret

 

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Status: offline 		agree with silly. MT got 3 years of offensive operations ahead of him. Pelton had his gun for 15 turns in 41 :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/24/2012 12:03:56 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		This turn (52) Pelton has withdrawn all his troops East of the Dniepr in front of Kiev to the West of the river. This guy loves retreating. He just won't fight me.

Anyway I launched a series of "Stalin" attacks resulting in 20K of German losses for 33K Soviet. The worst of these involved 5 waves of attackers set against 2 German XX in a level 3 fort. He managed some reserve activations. But who cares. After the 5th attack I won the hex. My attacks generally involved 6 ID attacking from 2 hexes. Total losses for the battle, 15K Soviet to 6K German, perfectly acceptable.

Full maps at end of T54 (Start of Summer).

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/24/2012 3:00:57 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Maybe he's planning another one of his "this is historically inaccurate" complaints.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/24/2012 3:46:10 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		Well he is already whining about INF Corp being to strong.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/24/2012 4:17:52 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Be careful about making too many infantry corps. They are not that amazing in 42 without arty divisions backing them up, and you kind of need rifle divisions for defensive depth at this stage. You aren't even making guards rifle corps. The 20 AP expense is ugly, too, although it sounds like APs aren't an issue in this game.

I really think you should make at least some tank corps to get them trained up. They need a lot of wins to flip over to guards. Yeah, I know trucks are scarce, but you should have enough to raise some. They aren't too horrible on your truck pool, 1500 or so trucks per corps.

Now would be a good time to start smacking the Finns around, imo, since he has turtled up everywhere.







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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/24/2012 5:47:41 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		All good points Flavius. But I am trying to keep this German OOB steady. So the Finns can wait a while yet. BTW I have 2 Gd XXX with another on the cards soon.

I am very wary that I need to maintain a solid defence lest he pounce on me.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/26/2012 1:06:16 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
IMO this strategy employed by Pelton should be outlawed by a Auto Victory Level in March 42.


That

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Sure it one I will win but thats no substitue for FUN. This is not fun. I honestly do not know why someone playing German would wish to do this. To play out 200 plus turns hoping to merely survive.... its nuts.


You've got remarkable stamina, Michael. I'd have ditched the game long ago.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/26/2012 1:25:27 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		It has tested my patience for sure. But he does not deserve a draw or any ammo that says this is a viable strategy. I have been let down badly thru very poor VC.

How is the weather in Victoria? I will be down the beach this arvo :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/26/2012 9:25:42 PM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		End Soviet T54 (25th June 1942) Clear.

Not a great deal to report. The red arrows on the map indicate the huns latest retreat. They willingly gave up all their snow O gains. They now are cowering behind the Dniepr. The inset map is shown so you can see some typical CV's for the front.

The 'Stalin' attacks continue. Things around Minsk look a little messy as I am in the process of rotating a front out of the line and replacing it with a fresh one. I have another entire Front forming in the rear. My 1942 goals remain the same. Just keep banging away to maintain a loss rate that keeps the German OOB under control. I am losing a lot of guys but I can replace them. Soviet OOB is approaching 9 million. It will not be until 1943 that I expect to make any real headway. 1942 is the year of blood.

Next report at the end of July, unless events warrant an earlier issue. I doubt it. The hun are a bunch of chicken asses 'buckharch buk buk buk buckharch'




Attachment (1)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 1:35:32 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

It has tested my patience for sure. But he does not deserve a draw or any ammo that says this is a viable strategy. I have been let down badly thru very poor VC.


I'm currently playing a GC testing the alternate VC I wrote about a couple months ago. We're about to reach October 1941, and then we'll be assessing how well it's working. I'll be writing a short report to let people know how well these VC's are working. And we're playing with Logistics reduced to 50% for both sides.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
How is the weather in Victoria? I will be down the beach this arvo :)


Well, weather in Melbourne is totally balls, man :) I was walking to work and a gentle shower was falling. As soon as I got to the edge of the CBD, the gentle shower turned into a massive downpour that turned streets into streams. I think we'll be enjoying a humid, hot afternoon here... it will be hard to do my moves, I'd rather be in a beer garden enjoying a jug of cool cider


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 2:04:55 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Well the beach was great yesterday. Be down again today.

Move to the Gold Coast man.

We still eat cardboard :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 2:05:41 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		The VC need work. Lots.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 2:09:43 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

Maybe he's planning another one of his "this is historically inaccurate" complaints.



No maybe about it :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 9:02:58 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Hope you are bringing lots of sappers; those defensive CVs look ugly to attack...need to drop the fort levels with those soaking attacks. Attack, withdraw the tired guys to refit back to 50 morale, send in fresh goons, rinse, repeat.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 9:08:21 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm currently playing a GC testing the alternate VC I wrote about a couple months ago. We're about to reach October 1941, and then we'll be assessing how well it's working. I'll be writing a short report to let people know how well these VC's are working. And we're playing with Logistics reduced to 50% for both sides.


Curious about that...

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 11:47:31 AM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		I tried a game with Logistics set to 50% and it does not do what you would think it does. From the manual:

quote:

Logistics Level: Impacts the formulas that determine the amount of supply and replacements a unit receives based on its supply trace, the amount of attrition a unit suffers due to movement, the amount of fatigue added or removed from a unit during a turn, and the amount of fuel expended by generic vehicles. This level also affects the ability of leaders to conduct successful admin checks.


We were looking to test something with lower supply production and the Logistics setting changed much more than that. Also note that if you reduce the supply production, it shorts the production side of the equation before the combat units see less supply. So we were unable to find a way to reduce the amount of supplies going to the troops without decimating the production system.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 11/27/2012 12:50:22 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

Hope you are bringing lots of sappers; those defensive CVs look ugly to attack...need to drop the fort levels with those soaking attacks. Attack, withdraw the tired guys to refit back to 50 morale, send in fresh goons, rinse, repeat.


Exactly. I have so many guys I will happily send 2 million over the next 25 turns to their electronic graves ( I will get 2.5 million replacements). Even at a 5 to 1 loss ratio thats 400K Axis losses. At the moment the ratio is running at about 2.5 to 1. Attrition alone takes care of his replacements now. So that 400K will be coming off his OOB and his saved manpower, if he has any left.

Pelton, being a numbers man should see this. It will only get worse in 1943 and beyond. Who cares if his morale is 99, they all die the same. It is a futile and pointless exercise. But I am learning some new tricks :)

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