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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/19/2012 11:55:30 AM

Manstein63

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I don't see what the problem is. If I had an opponent who decided that they were going to 'fort up' & play defensive from 1942 onward I would look at it a challenge (as I am sure Michael T is doing) & do everything that I possibly could to be in Berlin before the game ends & the earlier that I could do it the better. That being said I don't think that the Soviet army in 42 is able to deal with this form of defense very easily but I think that it could change in 43. I will be watching this most carefully
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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/19/2012 10:28:16 PM

Aurelian

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I would be estatic. The Red Army just gets bigger and bigger with out interference. And that much closer to Berlin without fighting.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/19/2012 10:48:39 PM

hfarrish

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

And boredom.
If nothing is done to prevent this then it could become a successful strategy for people who play the Axis side and lose the game early on but can't accept defeat.I'm sure a lot of people, including me, would have quit in disgust by now which of course technically would be marked down as a defeat.
This game is such a huge investment in time that I think if you're going to conduct an 'experiment' like this you should get the o.k from your opponent first.It's disrespectful not to.
If I ever play the Soviet side in a 41 campaign again I'd be wanting a house rule to prevent any chance of this happening.

I think we will see MT smash Pelton to dust relatively quickly with the strength he is building up. Once he can start making 5, 10, 15 successful attacks a turn, which is not far off, the German army will quickly decline and collapse.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/19/2012 11:36:09 PM

Michael T

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I am no longer bored or unhappy. Now and beyond is all good :)

My annoyance was between turns 14 (when the great retreat began) and around 50 turns beyond that until INF XXX gave me some offensive clout. So 50 turns of dreariness had to be endured. All water under the bridge now. But I reiterate, no way I will allow that to happen again. Its not my idea of WWII in the East. I still really have not played a 'normal' summer 42 as Soviet, something I was looking forward too against Pelton, someone supposedly pretty good at that. But he failed miserabley. Perhaps glacva will deliver a proper 42 campaign if we get our game going again.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/19/2012 11:36:46 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think until you face such a situation you can't appreciate the dissapointment and frustration.

And boredom.
If nothing is done to prevent this then it could become a successful strategy for people who play the Axis side and lose the game early on but can't accept defeat.I'm sure a lot of people, including me, would have quit in disgust by now which of course technically would be marked down as a defeat.
This game is such a huge investment in time that I think if you're going to conduct an 'experiment' like this you should get the o.k from your opponent first.It's disrespectful not to.
If I ever play the Soviet side in a 41 campaign again I'd be wanting a house rule to prevent any chance of this happening.

After 2 years I still haven't found an opponent who would stick to the bitter end, apart from Belphegor's russians, despite many 'I won't surrender' promises before game started. Give me a German who does a Pelton any day as opposed to quitting or simply disappearing somewhere between T2 and T30 any day. This is despite agreeing a german win is Berlin falling later than historically which gives German more to play for in a longer game. I want my day with a 2.0 model Russian army. Fingers crossed for my 3 current games or else I will have to beg Terje to play me.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/20/2012 12:17:11 AM

Disgruntled Veteran

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think until you face such a situation you can't appreciate the dissapointment and frustration.

And boredom.
If nothing is done to prevent this then it could become a successful strategy for people who play the Axis side and lose the game early on but can't accept defeat.I'm sure a lot of people, including me, would have quit in disgust by now which of course technically would be marked down as a defeat.
This game is such a huge investment in time that I think if you're going to conduct an 'experiment' like this you should get the o.k from your opponent first.It's disrespectful not to.
If I ever play the Soviet side in a 41 campaign again I'd be wanting a house rule to prevent any chance of this happening.

After 2 years I still haven't found an opponent who would stick to the bitter end, apart from Belphegor's russians, despite many 'I won't surrender' promises before game started. Give me a German who does a Pelton any day as opposed to quitting or simply disappearing somewhere between T2 and T30 any day. This is despite agreeing a german win is Berlin falling later than historically which gives German more to play for in a longer game. I want my day with a 2.0 model Russian army. Fingers crossed for my 3 current games or else I will have to beg Terje to play me.

I would, but I'm hacking it out with A-game. Our game is going 2turns a week tops so it will be a while.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/20/2012 12:25:07 AM

timmyab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
I think we will see MT smash Pelton to dust relatively quickly with the strength he is building up.

I'm absolutely certain he will, from mid 43 on his army's going to be a monster.That's really what I would object to.It shouldn't take hundreds of hours and a year out of your life to work out what should have been obvious from very early on.
I'm not saying that it's not useful as an experiment, but I think something like this should be mutually agreed between the players.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower
After 2 years I still haven't found an opponent who would stick to the bitter end, apart from Belphegor's russians, despite many 'I won't surrender' promises before game started. Give me a German who does a Pelton any day as opposed to quitting or simply disappearing somewhere between T2 and T30 any day.

That's very true of course.Finding a reliable opponent is difficult.I just think that once the game was over as a contest I'd lose the will to carry on.I find the late game a bit dull anyway to be honest.Maybe I've just got a low boredom threshold.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/20/2012 5:48:59 AM

Harrybanana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I am no longer bored or unhappy. Now and beyond is all good :)

My annoyance was between turns 14 (when the great retreat began) and around 50 turns beyond that until INF XXX gave me some offensive clout. So 50 turns of dreariness had to be endured. All water under the bridge now. But I reiterate, no way I will allow that to happen again. Its not my idea of WWII in the East. I still really have not played a 'normal' summer 42 as Soviet, something I was looking forward too against Pelton, someone supposedly pretty good at that. But he failed miserabley. Perhaps glacva will deliver a proper 42 campaign if we get our game going again.

Michael,

Saper indicated to me earlier that he is going to try and work out his technical issues with Server games. If he does I would very much reccomend him as an opponent. In our first game he stuck out the Blizzard defending forward despite a so so 41 offensive. When it became obvious in early summer 42 that he could not break my lines or make much progress he sensibly halted his offensive, so we did not have a "normal" 42 either. But he sure didn't runaway either. I had to fight hard all the way to Berlin.

The main problem I see with your wanting to play a "normal" 42 is that will only happen if the Germans achieve a normal or at least very close to normal 41. I think you are just too good for that to happen against most players. But Saper has improved enough that I think he might give you a run for your money. And it would certainly be fun for me to watch.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/20/2012 9:20:15 PM

Michael T

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End Soviet T69 (8th Oct 1942) Clear.

The last turn of the summer saw the loss ratio fall below 2:1 for Soviet assaults, 15K German to 29K Soviet. Another month of clear weather may well have seen Soviet units push thru in to unfortified ground to the south west of Riga (well at least only Level 1's). The summer of 1943 is going to be fun fun fun!

Of the 39 INF XXX I have, 19 are Guards, with another 2 or 3 due to convert. We managed 1 Guard Tk Corp. All in all a very good summer considering the lack of offensive punch we have. It was good training in what works and what doesn't in so much as the new Soviet attack doctrine.

There are now 4 turns of mud, damn it. This gives the hun some much needed breathing space I am guessing. I am betting his ARM pool is somewhat depleted by now though.

Our ARM pool is looking very healthy and I now have 12 new Art XX with more to come.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 12:42:54 AM

Flaviusx

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I think you've got your toys on the wrong end the front, MT. They ought to be getting ready for winter in the south. Blow away that Dnepr defense once and for all and make haste to Romania. Stake everything on this. This business up north is a sideshow, the war is most easily and rapidly won down south, especially if you can get Romania to flip. Nothing you can do up north will be anywhere near as decisive as that.

It's going to be very difficult due to reassignment costs to get all those goodies grinding away by Kaunas to where they need to be.

On the bright side...if you can somehow finesse this, you've got Pelton's reserves fixed on the wrong end of the map, as well.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/21/2012 12:43:38 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 1:39:54 AM

Michael T

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The toys could be anywhere by the time the rivers freeze :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 4:29:10 AM

mmarquo

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The one thing Pelton is not doing: counterattacking and slaughtering your spent stacks which are over exposed after your attacks. I count at least 5 easy opportunies in the last screen shot. If he was not risk adverse you would be hurting - no joke.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 5:13:27 AM

Michael T

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He has been hitting the odd stack lately. But usually canon fodder that I leave out there for that very purpose. If he loses 5K to kill 8K what do I care? However I have been a little less cautious this turn as next turn is mud :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 11:25:19 AM

M60A3TTS

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The arrival of the Southwestern Front on turn 71 will allow you to create a good attack group. Consider assigning armies that are primarily mech, tank and cav and give it a leader you can comfortably overload with.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 12/21/2012 11:26:33 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 11:39:51 AM

swkuh

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One solution to this unwanted strategy in '41 is to try the '42, '43, '44 campaign games. Why not? Would myself much prefer that to "house rules," theory being its better to play the game rules than game the rules.

Asked your opponent in his thread what was expected in terms of collapse or fall of Berlin and declined to answer.

Still seems you have a clear win, just grinding it out. The game is a good tutorial for me for several issues, reserves, arty units, fort effects, and such. But I must agree, the first 60 turns are boring, except for the surprise of the strategy. If had wanted to explore the strategy, a purpose I'd approve, I'd try it vs. AI or with an agreement with an opponent.

Glad its being played out.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 2:05:46 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

The arrival of the Southwestern Front on turn 71 will allow you to create a good attack group. Consider assigning armies that are primarily mech, tank and cav and give it a leader you can comfortably overload with.

I actually would load this up with guards rifle corps, myself, and perhaps the odd mech corps to round out the armies assigned to the Front. 3 rifle corps + 1 mech corps per army looks like a good loadout at this stage. Then send that off to the south to break the Dnepr line once and for all.

Mobile armies for the time being can remain assigned to STAVKA. He needs to break down these fortified lines first. This could take a while.

An interesting possibility -- he's rather thin in the Pripyet. A strong cav group could exploit this once a hole or two is punched through that. That could turn his position around Kiev quite nicely, and even put some flank pressure on AGC. This is after everything freezes over. That happens the second week in December in 42 as I recall.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 6:34:35 PM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think until you face such a situation you can't appreciate the dissapointment and frustration.

And boredom.
If nothing is done to prevent this then it could become a successful strategy for people who play the Axis side and lose the game early on but can't accept defeat.I'm sure a lot of people, including me, would have quit in disgust by now which of course technically would be marked down as a defeat.
This game is such a huge investment in time that I think if you're going to conduct an 'experiment' like this you should get the o.k from your opponent first.It's disrespectful not to.
If I ever play the Soviet side in a 41 campaign again I'd be wanting a house rule to prevent any chance of this happening.

After 2 years I still haven't found an opponent who would stick to the bitter end, apart from Belphegor's russians, despite many 'I won't surrender' promises before game started. Give me a German who does a Pelton any day as opposed to quitting or simply disappearing somewhere between T2 and T30 any day. This is despite agreeing a german win is Berlin falling later than historically which gives German more to play for in a longer game. I want my day with a 2.0 model Russian army. Fingers crossed for my 3 current games or else I will have to beg Terje to play me.

Erm!? You calling me stubborn!?

I think a minor issue/problem with this game is that the last 100 or so turns, there is not much to do for the Germans. That being said, I think that issue arises from players expecting too much. I see this game as divided in 3 parts;
1. Axis push, USSR sweat
2. Either might push, both sweat
3. USSR push, Axis sweat.
And since we all will agree (I think) that pushing is far better than sweating, it is easy to give up after #2 as the Axis.

For me however, the game (any game, not just WitE) is to be played to the bitter end. I had my fun early on as the Germans, ofc shall my opponent have the same fun in the later stages of the game.

When it comes to THIS peculiar game, I think it proves that it is easier to defend than to attack, and if you pose two good players against eachother, and both know their opponent fairly well, the defender has a slight edge. And as the Axis, you are allready an underdog, and when you hit an extremely well dug in USSR defensive line, you will bleed out rather quickly.

Ofc then it could be discussed if there is something not working properly with the Blizzard rule, which led Pelton (and might I add, myself) to pull back during that first winter, but THAT is another discussion.
As of now, I predict a -44 win for Michael T.

Anyway, sorry for the (partial) hijacking.

Terje

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 6:40:12 PM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I actually would load this up with guards rifle corps, myself, and perhaps the odd mech corps to round out the armies assigned to the Front. 3 rifle corps + 1 mech corps per army looks like a good loadout at this stage. Then send that off to the south to break the Dnepr line once and for all.

Mobile armies for the time being can remain assigned to STAVKA. He needs to break down these fortified lines first. This could take a while.

Since i consider myself a student still, might I ask why you would prefer this to adding 3 Mechs to an army?
The way I see it, if you add 3xMechXXX to an army that would allow you to send in 3 mech XXXs in any hex you force the Germans to retreat from. This would then allow you to attack the neighbouring hex with the benefit of attacking form an extra hex sort of speak the following turn. (hope you understand what I mean).

Terje

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 9:49:16 PM

Flaviusx

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I'm not adding 3 mechs to an army. I'm adding one. Partly to feed them wins, partly to give each rifle army a bit of extra mobility, and because mech can actually defend reasonably well in the event of a counterattack.

MT is getting to the point where he no longer has to worry too much about counterattacks. The butcher's bill for them becomes prohibitive. If he can pile a couple of corps on a newly won hex sure they may get evicted, but not cheaply. I'd be pushing my corps forward as much as possible now.

Now, tank corps are not amazing at this. They have a jaw of glass. But mech corps can do the job. Rifle corps of course can as well, but may not always have the movement to fight and then seize a newly cleared hex. 3 nearby armies each with a mech corps, however, make it easier to take that ground and punish the Germans if they try to take it back. Alternately, they can be set to reserve (on both the offense and defense) and spring a nasty surprise.

One more thing, MT: you may want to start grouping those cav divisions into corps soon. A mid 43 guards cavalry corps with full attachments can clock in at 12+ CV, which is no joke. The 43 TOE stiffens these units a lot. They are often better than mech or tank corps at exploiting, too, unless those other corps have 40+ movement. They are easier to supply and keep at something approaching their maximum MPs.

If I wanted to put 3 mechs into one army, I'd just go straight and make a tank army HQ and park them there. But it's doubtful that MT will ever make enough tank army HQs to absorb all the mobile corps. Some of these corps are going to have to be attached elsewhere. The second best option is to park 4 mobile corps in a shock army, or a guards army once those are available.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/21/2012 10:13:38 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 10:23:18 PM

Michael T

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quote:

The second best option is to park 4 mobile corps in a shock army

This is what I intend to do. Actually I think they are better than Tk Armies for mobile units. A Tk Army only has 15 CP. You can get 4 Mobile Corp in to a Shk Army (18 Cp).

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/21/2012 10:32:38 PM

Flaviusx

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The nice thing about the tank army HQs over a shock (or guards) army is the +1 to mech rating. This is a weak spot for the Soviets, very few Soviet commanders have ratings over 6 (including the historical tank commanders.) With these HQs you all of a sudden have a goodish number of 7 mech leaders effectively. (Rotmistrov becomes a 9 this way, which is kind of ridiculous. He wasn't that good. If anything, the other historical tank army leaders are underrated and he is way overrated. But I digress.)

You will have to build some extra armies eventually, either tank or regular. The ones you get for free are not enough to hold all your units. I think it's ok to build a handful of tank armies with that in mind.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/22/2012 1:51:56 AM

Michael T

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I have one to date (Tk XXXX), more later on. Right now its more about grinding so INF XXX have taken priority. But the Mech forces will triple in size over the next few months. Trucks being the limiting factor till the 43 boost changes the scheme of things.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/22/2012 7:50:25 AM

terje439

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Thanks guys, this is good info.

Terje

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 11:28:52 AM

Michael T

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I have to be honest people. I have suspected for some time that Pelton is looking for a way out of this on a technical issue. Possibly even one he has created himself. I won't be playing this guy again. I was warned about this MO by a former opponent of his. Naturally he never finds problems in games he is winning.

I will keep shooting back turns for as long as he keeps playing. If I said how I really felt about him I would be kicked off this forum. I have played lots of guys from this forum. He is the only one I will not play again.

He has bellyached from the begining about bad luck, broken systems, bugs, exploits, cheats, you name it. It has been the most unfun gaming experience I have ever played in over 30 years of wargaming.

Anyway I play on.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 2:16:57 PM

Wuffer

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a new concept of total war, I assume?

try to ignore the stuff, otherwise you will not only become a victim of his propaganda and psycho-metagame, but in the worst case just as m*d, hmm?

so, how is the war going on?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 2:56:18 PM

TulliusDetritus

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What Wuffer said

You will soon be charging like a crazy wild bull with you rifle corps and artillery divisions.

Enjoy!

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 4:51:27 PM

turtlefang

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I tend to agree with you regarding Pelton raising every issue under the sun on the game in the technical forums and elsewhere. And I understand your frustration.

However, I would encourage you to reconsider your position on a rematch. I would really like to see you take the Germans and demostrate how to play them against all his gripping about how unbalanced the game is against the Germans to show him how to play the Germans and what you can do with them.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 9:14:53 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

I would really like to see you take the Germans and demostrate how to play them against all his gripping about how unbalanced the game is against the Germans to show him how to play the Germans and what you can do with them.

So would I. But, since Pelton will " bellyache from the begining about bad luck, broken systems, bugs, exploits, cheats, you name it.", starting the very moment he starts losing, it would be a huge waste of MT's time.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 9:29:31 PM

Michael T

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The war is going as planned. The mud turns halted my attacks. Now the ice/snow has made it tough going but progress is being made in the south. I have been doing enough to keep his OOB steady. Mostly the loss ratio is 2:1 or even better for me now.

Things will get rolling again with the blizzard freeze. I plan a full report and maps on the first turn of 1943 if we get that far. I am waiting on Peltons first Dec 1942 turn. Things were really starting to pick up for me toward the end of summer 42, I almost had penetrated his fort line in the north. Pelton was getting a small taste of what summer 43 would be like but X4. I am guessing thats why the rhetoric about bugs and what not is ramping up. He doesn't want to face the Red army in summer 43.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/29/2012 9:55:01 PM

carlkay58

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MT - I understand where you are coming from about playing Pelton. But making him stick to playing the Soviets vs your Axis is an important feature here. Right now the Soviets are winning - because the game is slanted towards the Soviets (read just about anything posted by Pelton or Helio). IF you could stick it to him as the Axis, you are able to prove that the game is not really that unbalanced - its just his method of play that is wrong. I do realize that it will mean putting up with Pelton's personality - but that is pretty hard to avoid on this forum!

I just think that this is about the best opportunity to prove whether or not the sides are as unbalanced as Pelton & Helio claim. I offered to be the Soviets to the Helio 'dream' scenario of max AP for the Axis and the minimum AP for the Soviets (as that seems to be his major constant complaint that the Soviet APs go further than the Axis) but he quickly backed out of the offer.

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