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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 3:40:35 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Yeah, I meant Moscow MD - I guess my question is does it really help you to have troops attached to an HQ 400 miles away (other than STAVKA)?

Regardless of the activation benefits, I much prefer to horde APs and commanders for the HQs building up forces in the main rear line...just a play style choice though. I find that if I try to organize things early war I just keep spending APs reogranizing them every time I am forced to retreat.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 5:02:02 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Yeah, I meant Moscow MD - I guess my question is does it really help you to have troops attached to an HQ 400 miles away (other than STAVKA)?
Regardless of the activation benefits, I much prefer to horde APs and commanders for the HQs building up forces in the main rear line..


No AP cost for assigning units from Stavka to an MD (and no cost assigning units from an MD to another HQ).
It doesn't appear to make any difference if they're beyond supply range of the HQ for their supply, but one advantage I imagine would be at least two leadership checks instead of one for all purposes.
I assign all units I'm bringing up from the Urals to Moscow or Volga MD before finding them a home HQ.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 9:26:03 AM   
Fishbed

 

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 10:44:40 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

If you get the C/C in order then there is a better chance of defensive activations...

Mark


More importantly, it would cut down on combat penalties. This for me is the main reason to maintain at least front integrity. I also don't bother trying to keep Fronts below command capacity at this stage. You almost have to blow past that if you plan on holding any significant stretch of real estate with armies commanded by a single Front.

3 armies/Front just doesn't cut it. Front commanders at this point are also mostly crap (Popov in Northern is pretty good, though.) I cheerfully will load up a Front with up to 5 armies and pretend the Front commander doesn't exist and focus on getting good army leaders and having them backstopped by Zhukov.

It's almost impossible to avoid this sort of thing until 1943. Front capacity is just not there until then. You either overload, go rainbow warrior, or use lots of STAVKA armies. I think overloading is the least worst option.

By 1943 Fronts will be sufficiently numerous and their capacity sufficiently high to accomodate 4-5 armies; those armies themselves are smaller in cap but also more efficient as they switch over to corps.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/23/2012 10:50:50 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/23/2012 10:52:57 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

not building up forts in Pavlovo...?


Its happening now.

No disasters in T5. He pushed (at grerat cost to us both) a few more hexes to the north and south of Lake Ilmen. I am still not sure of his main direction yet. Not much of a change in the center. Pushing ahead in the south. More screenies on T6.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/25/2012 8:47:24 AM   
randallw

 

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/25/2012 1:54:42 PM   
Flaviusx


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/29/2012 4:45:55 AM   
Michael T


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The AGN Panzer/Infantry blob continues to bludgeon its way forward. The Mech group have been reinforced with the 60th Mot xx and this brings the Mech forces arrayed against the Leningrad sector to 7 Panzer and 7 Mot divisions. This turn the spearhead deflected to the south east from Lake Ilmen. The Leningrad defenders have done well so far but with the plethora of Mech units committed by Pelton to the Leningrad area any kind of breakthrough will mean serious trouble for them. I throw more troops at the head of the beast.

Nothing really to report in AGC. The enemy continues his methodical advance towards Smolensk and crosses the Dneipr.

In AGS the German Mech forces split in to 2 groups. One comprising of 2 Panzer and 2 Mot divisions cut in behind Kiev and head north east. This forces me to retreat from Gomel and to put in place a defence of my lower centre. The second group has 4 Panzer and 4 Mot divisions. They push on up to Poltava and D Town. I begin the process to evacuate Stalino of its ARM factories.

So far so good.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/29/2012 4:47:06 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		A close up of Lake Ilmen and surrounds.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/29/2012 4:52:29 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Can I be the first to say I hope you lose? That isn't out of animosity towards you - as I think you would appreciate the defense you are offering is completely ridiculous (which I think you have pointed out from the opposing side before). If we Soviet players have to play 80 mile checkerboard games as the best defense I am going to be profoundly depressed.

...so, in conclusion, I hope your defense fails even if I respect the effort that goes into it.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/29/2012 5:06:24 AM   
Michael T


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/29/2012 8:01:37 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
If we Soviet players have to play 80 mile checkerboard games as the best defense I am going to be profoundly depressed.


You should be depressed win lose or draw; the fact that any kind of forward defense is suicidal is bad enough.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/29/2012 10:28:52 PM   
HITMAN202


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Status: offline 		Michael T., I think Pelton's tendency to indiscriminately (not easy to spell ) rout units out of easily achieved pockets and failure to isolate the Rovno contingent on turn #1 gives you so many extra units that your defense is so effective, both in building a Pskov barrier and deep checkerboards elsewhere. Twenty or so extra units go a long way. In fact, he probably blessed you with more !!! T6 he's only killed 68 divisions. I've often been 20-25 or more on the same turn.

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 8/29/2012 10:41:59 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 2:32:49 AM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		Pelton has been writing in multiple AARs that he now likes "grinding;" some had this epiphany sometime ago. At this stage of the game units eliminated in pockets simply return later as reinforcements, so they are not really eliminated at all. Therefore, some beleive that a better approach is to beat the **** out these units, drain them of manpower and morale, and continually drive east rather than waste time encricling, pocketing and then devouring. This is at least a 2 or 3 move process, whereas grinding keeps the momentum going.

Mark

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 3:17:53 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Yeah, its a mixed bag - given that the Soviet replacement level in '41 is way below historical (if you take losses anything like historical its game over for sure), the quickest way to a sure victory is massive pockets; but if you take the long view, or if your opponent won't allow massive pockets (which most smart Soviet players avoid these days) grinding is the only way to go for the German I think.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 4:21:48 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		Yes Pelton seems prefer the grinding strategy so far. He could improve his opening moves a bit I think. But he has had plenty of success so I guess he would see little reason to change.

My mission is to tie up his Panzer Groups in the AGN sector for as long as I can. No disasters on T7. I throw even more men in to the teeth of the beast. If you want to take on the Panzers head on no better place to do it than around the Valdai (spelling?).

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 12:02:13 PM   
delatbabel


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Status: offline 		This is not my observation but one from a FTF player I play against locally.

The Russians have a surplus of trucks going into to turns 6 - 15 or so, to the extent that any unit that gets routed will fill up with trucks again fairly quickly. When a unit routs, it gives up most of its trucks, and a lot of those are captured. If you rout the same tank or motorised division 3-4 times you can capture its entire load of trucks 3-4 times because each time it escapes with a rout this causes it to fill up with trucks again and then hand them over again. Doing this "grind" can quickly cost the Soviets 50K - 60K trucks which can be critical both during the blizzard and later in the war.


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 4:56:18 PM   
HITMAN202


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Status: offline 		I think ya'll are (my Southern twang is more friendly) wrong for the very reasons you mentioned. How much better is it to surround 4 units of 6-7,000 men (the goal is to achieve small pockets ... fairly easy to do) each versus making 12 attacks with 2,00 casualties to achieve the same total hurt to the Soviets ???

And remember the Axis will also grind the Soviets (granted, not with the same impact as Pelton's strategy would achieve) as it makes the pockets, and at the same time reducing Axis casualties to boot (not making 12 attacks in the above example).

Also the fewer number of defending units makes Axis penetration easier based on 1) less confusion in Axis planning with fewer units ("obstacles") and fewer attacks needed (because of fewer units) to achieve a breakout.

Also (I'm not certain) won't the replacement units have very weak morale, weak Toe, and are not replaced for 7 or more turns ???

Fewer units are a big handicap to the Soviets. I wonder what Flavius and M60 think ???

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 5:17:34 PM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		IMO pocketing is the way to go. But it requires a far higher level of skill, planning and game time to be successful. Grinding is relatively simple and quick. I suspect if Pelton used a pocketing technique he could not play 5 concurrent games. But each to their own.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/30/2012 5:31:19 PM   
HITMAN202


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Status: offline 		Il agree to the increased time required for each turn. After logging on, I carpet each front with observation flights. Then I sit back and visualize each army group's situation (WITE is really four games in one, the 1) strategic game and 2-4) the tactical clash in each separate army group.) I usually then log off and chew the cud, so to speak, and rarely make a move (at least in '41) the same day.

Also by the way, its a thrill for me to put the combat resolution option on 4-5. It's like watching the roulette wheel whirl.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/3/2012 10:21:01 PM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		End Soviet T8

AGN: Pelton is now attacking on both sides Lake Ilmen but narrows his spearhead on the southern side. Even more Soviet troops are drawn in to this theatre.

AGC: Smolensk is isolated along with several units. One Tank Division breaks out.

AGS: The methodical advance by the Axis continues. The approaches to Kharkov are open but its flanks secure. I am trying to avoid the usual encirclement of this city and its defending Army by inviting a direct assault.

I have begun my T9. The German grind towards Leningrad continues. Assaults on both sides of Lake Ilmen. He has a lot of troops up there. No other bad news to report.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 1:02:42 AM   
A game


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Status: offline 		It appears the "patented Pelton Right Hook" is going nowhere slowly.. I have never really thought much of the Lake Ilmen right hook, it just seems like a waste of time and resources for the Axis, and provides the Soviets with the one thing they should not be allowed in 41, the ability to predict where the Axis are going and prepare defenses, in perfect defensive terrain...

MT do you think it helped that you knew Pelton would do the right hook in this game? Anyway it looks like he is now moving forces round to take the direct route to Leningrad, interesting to see how this plays out!

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 1:19:00 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		The Pelton right hook and even more so his MO of going for a quick victory at Leningrad was certainly on my radar. I am not even too concerned if I ulimately lose the place as long as his Mech units are tied up in that area for most of the summer. At some point either he is going to brealthru and get the joint or if not he will realize its a waste of his Mech units and clear out. The longer this drags on the better. This entire campaign so far has revolved around Leningrad. He wants it. So I resist.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 10:18:36 AM   
janh

 

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Status: offline 		Look at his Panzer numbers, barely 1400 ready tanks. He must be running his mobile formations very hard, very early in the summer offensive. This is about how they ought to be towards its end, or be in better shape if not doing the German death rush right into December.

Could be that this right hook is a genuine present for any Soviet player prepared to react to it. The Valdai region is imho amongst the best defensive terrains on the map, and Panzer and Motorized Infantry are not meant to struggle under such circumstances for long. Pelton's earlier strategies were much better than this, I find.

< Message edited by janh -- 9/4/2012 10:19:43 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 11:30:29 AM   
schascha


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 1:39:52 PM   
mmarquo


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Status: offline 		Michael,

I am somewhat amused by your defense lines in the center and south; this is what I tried in our match in the, "muling era" when you routinely skillfully shredded 3 concentric lines of defense in depth. I still think this games needs a way of marshaling supply in bases and depots for focused attacks.

I would be careful about giving up too many manpower production centers in the South if possible; this will hurt more than anything else from 1943 onwwards. Also, start thinking about the blizzard offense now...cavalry is your best friend...

Regards,

Mark

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 3:00:42 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I too am perplexed at how you are holding with this checkerboard in the center and south. Actually, down south it's the stretched Axis logistics that are doing the real work for you, not your swiss cheese defense. As long as you're willing to avoid getting decisively committed down there and are willing to gradually fall back all the way to Voronezh and Rostov, it's under control. Unlike Marquo, I think it's impossible to make a stand much west of there without risking losing your forces, as desirable as it may be to hold on to the manpower centers. He can certainly reach the Donbas before mud and will destroy you there if you try to stop him. (You have already evaded a trap by Karkhov, wisely so.)

I just don't think it is necessary or desirable to accomplish these goals with a 3 deep checkerboard. It's not the most economical defense to do the job.

But if Pelton deployed more mech in the center he could tear that apart. Of course, he's totally committed to this grinding action in the Valdai now, which has rather blown up on him. If the Soviet player is willing to match this sort of thing he can slow it down to a crawl as you have. Everybody else he tried this on got caught with their pants down and never was able to organize a proper defense.

The danger in the midterm is that he swings south from the Valdai rather than north and meets up with AGC while you are heavily deployed up north. Not an immediate problem, but something to watch out for after turn 12 or so when the rails in the center are in place for a push to Moscow. This of course means conceding Leningrad on his part (unless the infantry can simply plow into the place directly north of Novgorod, doubtful) which is a big win for you, but he'd be able to get 3 panzer groups in the center while you are rather weak there.

Janh, Pelton doesn't give a damn about his AFV numbers. He figured out long ago that so far as 1941 is concerned, it is the movement ability of mech units that makes them dangerous, not their tanks. All these 1941 tanks for the Axis are expendable, they will be replaced by better models later on, the main thing is not losing the units themselves or their morale.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 9/4/2012 3:10:33 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/4/2012 10:20:58 PM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		@Marquo, Muling would shred my defence too, more so. But muling is all but dead. I am expecting Pelton to give up vast tracts of territory in the blizzard so I am not too concerned about territory yet, but yes there are limits. But in the south it’s the lack of Axis supply that is the Soviets best defence against the Panzers.

@Flavius, there are checker boards and then there are checker boards. My defence in front of Moscow is a different structure. The thing I am using in the south is more like a sponge, its simply designed to suck up MP from thirsty Mech units on the fringe of the supply net while minimizing the chance of a big pocket. Besides Pelton only has 5 Pz and 3 Mot in the south now and a couple of Mech units are quite beaten up from my attacks.

The next couple of turns at Leningrad are the 1941 campaign. If he leaves the Mech units there he will forfeit any real chance of Moscow. But if he leaves Leningrad before ensuring its fall he has all but wasted all that time and resources for no gain. If I can maintain the status quo for two more turns he will face some tough choices.

Also remember this game is non random weather. So Pelton's comparisons to his other random weather games numbers wise are irrelevant. I am more convinced than ever that random weather (assuming a few mud turns are rolled) is a gimme game for the Soviets.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/5/2012 8:39:24 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		Pelton will rest his tanks back in Berlin, during the blizzard.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 9/5/2012 8:45:18 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Also remember this game is non random weather. So Pelton's comparisons to his other random weather games numbers wise are irrelevant. I am more convinced than ever that random weather (assuming a few mud turns are rolled) is a gimme game for the Soviets.


Not always....check out my latest game vs Mogmark.....I'm the SU and got bad die rolls for when the Mud hit


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