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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/10/2012 4:54:05 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		It's definitely not an efficient way to use APs, and should be done on a strictly limited basis if at all. But if it can help you knock out the Finns in 42, then that's a justifiable expenditure. Most of the time that opportunity won't come up. This is kind of a special situation. If the game settles down into a mutual staring contest, Michael will have some leeway with APs.

A dozen such brigades will set you back 72 APs including future merging costs. Not a trivial amount, and requires consideration. In opportunity cost terms, that's 3 tank corps and change, or 7 arty divisions and change, or whatever mix of units you need and plan on keeping.





< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 10/10/2012 5:18:35 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/11/2012 8:47:10 AM   
randallw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

haha. We actually nearly see more of Pelton's army than of yours on that screen
Any reason you'd suspect some spying from a ring of German sympathizers?


It may just be a map mischievously torn by a child.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/11/2012 10:47:16 AM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The reports are normally 1 turn in delay but not this time. Hence the limted map. Back to normal once Pelton returns from vacation.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/11/2012 10:39:58 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Looking at the Finns more closely I did not realize how weak they are buy mid to late 42. I will deal with them sometime during that period regardless of what Pelton does.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/12/2012 12:15:24 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Looking at the Finns more closely I did not realize how weak they are buy mid to late 42. I will deal with them sometime during that period regardless of what Pelton does.


Yep. Like you I hadn't paid attention to them... until winter 1942-43 arrived. Easy to trash them. And I just have (on my game) few units up north. HAHA, serves them right!

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/12/2012 12:57:30 AM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		I have done a lot of tests and research while herr Pelton has been away. I really think he is underestimating the power of an unrestrained Soviet Union come 1943 on. He really needs an outstanding 1942 attack to have any kind of hope in this. If he just turns turtle an lets me build up unmolested the power I will be able to wield will be simply irresitable. So bearing that in mind I have determined to maintain a very defensive stance across the front in 42 except for the Finns. Who will become uncle Joe's whipping boys :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/12/2012 4:51:34 AM   
Ketza


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From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		The Finns collapse rather easy against an organized Soviet assault backed with a lot of artillery. If your going for that strategy long term it actually makes sense to not bottle them up so you get more attacks in for building morale.

Once that one port falls near the Finn/Soviet border the Finns go poof and that is not what you want if your looking to grind wins.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/12/2012 5:07:51 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		As I recall, you need Vyborg, Narva, and Pskov to trigger surrender. Of those, only Vyborg remains in Axis hands in this game.

Interestingly, Pelton declined to occupy the chokepoint up north. He backed away from it. So Michael lost nothing here by putting a cork in the north.

My own view is that you can't be sure beforehand what's going to happen to Leningrad and if it goes, letting the Finns run amok past the Svir is bad news. Taking them out in 42 is gravy, making sure they don't get out of hand is essential. If need be, you can always force the surrender later on even from those chokepoints. That being said, they can be contained east of the chokepoint but still well short of the Svir. So there's a middle ground here between a runaway to the Svir and a hard contain at the border.







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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/13/2012 1:53:20 PM   
Ketza


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Status: offline 		I am not sure of what date it kicks in but all I did in this game was take Vyborg. He never got to Narva and Pskov is still his.

Finland fell in late August 1942 with 2 armies attacking along the isthmus supported by 9 artillery brigades, 6 tank corps and 6 cav corps.

I did have him bottled up.

As far as the cork strategy I am on the fence. If you occupy the Svir line with cheap units and the Axis player snuggles up to you that is more hexes of attrition the Finns have to deal with which sucks dry the few replacements they have. I have not lost Leningrad in the last 10 games or so so maybe I am getting too comfy with the whole thing.


I wanted Helsinki badly in this game and lots of ground victories but the Finns tossed in the towel.




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< Message edited by Ketza -- 10/13/2012 1:58:42 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/13/2012 2:20:18 PM   
gingerbread


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Status: offline 		Defending in the Jänisjärvi area is much less expensive in vehicles lost in supply operations, while the Svir line is probably the most expensive such line on the entire map. But you knew I'd point this out.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/16/2012 11:04:24 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		T25 (4th Dec 1941) Blizzard.

Not much point putting up a map at this point. All you would see is a bunch of screening Cavalry pursuing an invisible enemy. I will post the map for the first January 1942 turn, unless something interesting happens meantime, highly unlikely. This is a very drab game to say the least. Next time I play Soviet I will be insisting on some Auto Victory Levels in 1941. No way I want a repeat of this episode.


Sov OOB 6.66
Sov Cas 2.13
Sov Dis 0.811
Sov Man 3009
Tr Pool 202
Tr Units 142
Tr Repair 51
Total Tr 395

Ger OOB 3.34
Ger Cas 0.547
Ger Dis 0.363
OP AFV 1599


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/16/2012 11:22:06 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Yeah, Pelton has dropped to #3 in my Axis Player Fantasy League behind Saper222 and glvaca.

Come to think of it, he may be vying for 4th if I throw you in there.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 10/16/2012 11:25:07 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/17/2012 5:28:08 AM   
SBD

 

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/17/2012 11:21:35 PM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The Soviet OOB is increasing by 130K per turn. It’s at 6.8 mill T26. So unless there is some action or a sudden attrition surge I will have an OOB of 9 million by the end of April 1942! But I am wondering if I will have enough units to put all those guys in. Maybe I should keep a pool of 1 million troops in reserve. The mind boggles :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/18/2012 11:18:33 PM   
Michael T


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Status: offline 		T27 (18 Dec 1941) Blizzard

North of the Pripet the Germans are milling around to the west of the blizzard demarcation line (3 hexes west of Riga). South of the Pripet some Germans and their sidekicks are stationed on a line roughly due south from Kiev to the Black Sea. There are no Axis troops east of these lines. I pursue as best I can. I am hamstrung by an ever diminishing truck pool and a rail conversion command that is comical (they prefer to convert track that leads east to a dead end rather than key lines to the west). Totally nuts. I have almost 60 RR brigades. Recruiting more RR dudes seems to only accelerate conversion to the east, or rather anywhere but west.

I have pretty much settled on a line I will be defending at the end of the blizzard. I cannot disclose it yet. I will post a censored map in 2 more turns.



Sov OOB 6.98
Sov Cas 214
Sov Dis 0.823
Sov Man 3122
Tr Pool 192
Tr Units 143
Tr Repair 56
Total Tr 391

Ger OOB 3.14
Ger Cas 0.632
Ger Dis 0.448



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/19/2012 1:51:52 AM   
gingerbread


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Status: offline 		Corps (read Airborne) HQ have a max 5 hex range for construction. Two RR:s in an AB HQ placed 5 hexes west of the rail hex you want them to work on could do it. Try small scale first...

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 12:40:54 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		End Soviet T29 (1st Jan 1942) Blizzard.

Nothing to report. The maps speak for themselves. Roll on summer.

More maps at the end of the Blizzard unless something interesting develops.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 5:30:09 AM   
randallw

 

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Status: offline 		You could have spent another month pushing forward. I do like the idea of using a thin screen forward, to avoid the mass early spring encirclement that Pelton loves so much.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 5:38:41 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I am very wary of the truck situation. Trucks and a very limited rail converstion rate all play in to Pelton's hands in this situation. The game surely needs some Auto victory level for Russia here. The game has developed in to a non sensensical farce as far as an historical wargame goes.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 6:06:43 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I wouldn't push much further. Michael has reached natural stop lines based on terrain. Pelton is also behind the blizzard zone now in certain areas, and could easily punish an advance there. Indeed, I think Micheal may have already advanced too far north of the Pripyet. It's going to be a while before some of those rivers unfreeze, he may be overcommitted near Riga. The whole Baltic area is a potential deathtrap the way it opens up, you don't reach good defensive line there once pass the Dvina until all the way up to Narva-Pskov-Vitebsk. In the center he may be able to hold the Berezina and use that to screen the landbridge.

Down south the danger area is near Kiev. Dnepr won't unfreeze quickly enough there and Pelton could cross it in March. The lower Dnepr bend should be doable, but is also a long and awkward line to hold if Pelton can cross it north of Cherkassy.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 6:21:13 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		There are still 8 more turns of blizzard. I will be ready for the snow O or have a healthy buffer zone. Depending on what area of the front you examine. All will be reveiled come the snow turns. Remember my army will not be weakened due to blizzard battles and pursuits. They will be in position, ready, rested and waiting come late Feburary.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 6:25:37 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Fair enough. Am still nervous about that concentration near Riga, though.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 6:38:16 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		You and me both. But without some risk or enticement 1942 could become boring real quick. I don't want that. As usual its a delicate balance. Risk versus reward.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 7:50:28 AM   
juret

 

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Status: offline 		I like MT making a buffer zone.

The screening cavs are a low price for converting hexes. The more SU push back now in winter the further away germany will be from core russia.

I guess MT has a plan where to put the defensive lines come late spring summer 1942.

1942 in this game will be very different from other AAR´s but not less intresting for us following the thread. Its obvius whut germany´s plans are for 1942 and will be intresting to see whut an summeroffensive can accomplish againt the red army.

ty for the update MT.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 2:30:19 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Given MTs restricted map, I wonder what Peltons 41 campaign was all about. In military terms he didn’t achieve nothing – at least in my view. He abandoned more or less all conquered territories, postponed War in the East for one year, and now faces a Red Army twice as large and tougher in every department than in 1941 – paper tiger or not. Pelton may have conserved morale and numbers, but I don’t see any real net benefit. What am I missing ?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 4:07:58 PM   
morvael


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Status: offline 		I guess this is playing to get minor axis victory at the end (45) and abandoning the auto-win victory condition. By having larger army, the Germans will be able to defend better, the Russian advance will be so slow, they may end up in 45 still in Poland or in western parts of Soviet Union. Of course it looks silly and is prompted by bad victory conditions in the game.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 4:27:05 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

Given MTs restricted map, I wonder what Peltons 41 campaign was all about. In military terms he didn’t achieve nothing – at least in my view. He abandoned more or less all conquered territories, postponed War in the East for one year, and now faces a Red Army twice as large and tougher in every department than in 1941 – paper tiger or not. Pelton may have conserved morale and numbers, but I don’t see any real net benefit. What am I missing ?


In a sense, this becomes a "what if" scenario of what would happen if the Germans had delayed their attack on Russia until 1942.

The Russians may be numerically stronger, but their army is no better than the 1941 version and in some ways, it is worse. (moral, no tank/mech divisions, etc). The good news for the Russians is they are closer to being better. The Russians do have cav corps available to help out as a "big" mobile unit.

Pelton will essentially have the 1941 quality German army available at his command with extra units, including extra panzer divisions equipped with better tanks. He will take a minor penalty when the infantry division ToE change takes place, but by and large, the moral for his entire army and the ToE for his entire army is intact and far beyond what is normally available for the 1942 Germans.

The bad part about all this is clearly Michael outplayed Pelton in 1941 and if the game had any sort of reasonable victory conditions, this game would be done. We now have to wait for the weather to improve to see if Pelton has a comeback in him and if the change in the basic rules set between 1941 and 1942 (specifically free replacement of units in 1941 compared to no free replacements in 1942) will have a big effect on this game or not. I don't think it comes down to what Michael has for manpower/equipment, etc. It is going to be a war on how many counters the Russians have and if the Germans can drop the count enough to have an impact on the overall aspect of the game.

A 1942 German start makes for a interesting "what if" scenario, but belongs in its own category.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 6:09:29 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		I try to figure out what this "if" would have looked like IRL: first of all a morale drop on the Axis side - imagine to sell this "Vitebsk and reverse" to a german soldier. Second: OKW never would have been able to sell this thing to anyone, including the guy at the top. Third, apart from RL: 8-10+ mio sov troops have a quality of their own, and although damaged, manpower centers of nearly the entire country are in sov hands. So, to me, the only "if" is armaments and whether every men can be given a rifle. If so I am prepared to see a Red Army of awesome dimensions. And yes, because of low experience/morale, sov losses may be awesome too. Finally, I wonder whether Pelton has thought about the lower morale of replacements from 1942 onwards.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 7:43:22 PM   
Klydon


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Status: offline 		Well, we are talking WITE here, which means trying to compare it to RL is a difficult enterprise at best.

The players role has not been defined in game, so we don't know exactly where they are at in the pecking order. There is no "executive command" to keep units in place, and the Germans must withdraw troops at certain times regardless of the status on the eastern front, so Stalin and Hitler don't have a role here. The average solder fought hard almost regardless of the situation for the Germans and moral was almost always high during the war. "Moral" in game is a combo of moral and experience. The grand manuver could be sold as a "trap". Ironic that Field Marshal von Rundstet recommended the very manuver Pelton is doing, so there is a RL connection.

From my understanding of replacements, they come into the unit and all things being equal, they have a tendency to gravitate to what the unit is. The only time replacements become a big issue is if the Germans lose units wholesale and have to be reconstituted from scratch.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 10/22/2012 11:07:28 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The game has developed in to a non sensensical farce as far as an historical wargame goes.


Maybe, but I can't help thinking it's quite funny.

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