RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/26/2013 10:46:01 PM

obvert

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Dan it seems you're a fan of the epic. All of these you list would be right up there for me in the great movie category (although I admit a severe difficulty in sitting through musicals unless there's a lot of ironic humor involved).

Sometimes students ask me for a favorite film, or even a top ten list. I simply can't rank these things. My interests are too broad and I guess my tolerance too high for really diverse things. I end up giving them my list, which now has about 300 films on it. Everything from these great films about societies at the brink to small simple comedies that just perfectly know how to make me laugh.

Although I love the film M.A.S.H., and I'm glad someone mentioned it, I still have to say the TV show did more to me because it was truly epic in nature, taking me through the lives of those people for so long. Mostly silly, but with a background of seriousness that never really dissipated. How many films or TV shows are there where you can rattle off the names of 5-10 characters without really trying?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/26/2013 10:49:07 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Ross! The 70s? That's the black hold of the motion picture era. The '30s through early '50s were golden, and really the '90s through the present day have been great. But the '70s were just plain awful.*

*Note: This, of course, is my own humble opinion based on my subjective likes and dislikes. In particular, I dislike vulgarity, sleaze, and movies with an overtly political agenda. That leaves about three decent movies from the '70s.

I somehow missed the great 70s movie debate that I started here. I get the feeling that if the great canoe paddler and I go to the multiplex together, we are going to end up in different theaters..

I love all films of all eras but the 70s was my coming of age time and was the coming of age time for American Cinema as well. My wife and I have spent the last two years re watching and watching some of the best films from that decade. Some have already been mentioned but here are a few that were missed.

The Conversation.
Badlands
Little Big Man
Being There
Cabaret
The Last Detail
The Man Who Would be King
The Sunshine Boys
The Garden of Finzi Continis
Breaking Away
All the Presidents Men
Young Frankenstein
A Bridge Too Far
Midnight Express
The Goodbye Girl
A Clockwork Orange
Network
M.A.S.H
American Graffiti
Alien (I still can't watch it twice)
Dog Day Afternoon
The Spirit of the Beehive
Texas Chainsaw Massacre (Not really. Just threw it in to get Dan excited)

Amazing! Spirit of the Beehive! Love that film!

Hardly anyone I've ever met has seen it though. So haunting.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 1:42:48 AM

Canoerebel

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One big reason I'm opinionated about movies is that I detest gratuitous sex, vulgarity, and profanity, and feel the same about movies that glamorize or condone crime, drug use, and immorality. By modern standards, I think I may seem prudish. But I come from an old fashioned southerners household which takes things like this seriously. In large part, this is because of our religious beliefs.

I hope you won't dismiss my standards out of hand, though, because many of us share the same idea with respect to historical accuracy. We deplore movies that take liberties with history, feeling almsot a sacred duty to get it right. To fail to do so, we feel, is to do an injustice to the men and women who went through those times. Thus, our loathing for TMTSNBN and others like it.

I make allowances for profanity etc. when used correctly in historical context - Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List for example. But think of the great old movies from the '30s through the '50s - no profanity, no vulgarity, etc. - and they are just marvelous. The '60s and '70s (and also through current day) deviated from that sharply, but especially the '70s, when directors flaunted their newfound freedom and lack of standards to pour it on even when it wasn't necessary. Execrable.

Since the '90s, many filmmakers have exercised a commendable level of self control. While these things I deplore are still common, there are so many great movies that are nearly totally free of it - think of it - Pirates of the Carribean, Les Miserables, most of the super hero movies, Lord of the Rings trilogy, Narnia trilogy. Many more delve into these things for historical accuracy - Enemy at the Gates, Zero Dark Thirty, and others.

Perhaps you can understand why, from my narrow perspective, the golden era of film making was '30 to '50s and '90s to present, while the '70s were bad.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 6:16:05 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm not a sci fi fan at all, but I wholeheartedly agree that Star Wars was a great ("Wow!") movie. I think it was the best movie of the '70s. I think Tora! Tora! Tora! might have been second best, but for reasons that demonstrate how subjective this is. My wife wouldn't like Tora! at all. :)

Nearly all of the other movies nominated by good folks rate from "okay" to "yuck!" in my book. I do realize my standardd and taste are rather unusual (not better, but probably odd).

I do note that you gents have enough taste not to mention the one movie that is worse than TMTSNBN. Arg! I can't even bring myself to mention it. Let's just put it this way: Hogan's Heroes was much better and far more true to history, bumbling Gestapo agents and overweight Keystone Cops sergeant and all.

I am willing to bet that just like my grandma the great puntpaddler refuses to go see Gone with the Wind because Rhett Butler said "I don't give a damn."

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 6:22:26 AM

CaptBeefheart

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To each his own, CR, and I agree a lot with your criteria, although my definition of "condone" might be a bit different.

I watched the more recent "Get Smart" remake and the Maxwell Smart character used the a-hole word to refer to someone. What? That went completely against the grain of that character from the original series (i.e. bumbling, yet completely goodnatured, much like Inspector Closeau). I stopped watching remakes because the vision of the new writers, directors and actors usually clashes with my conception of the original. That said, if someone wants to make historically accurate remakes of a lot of war movies *cough* Midway, Battle of the Bulge *cough* I'd be all over it.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 6:23:30 AM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

One big reason I'm opinionated about movies is that I detest gratuitous sex, vulgarity, and profanity, and feel the same about movies that glamorize or condone crime, drug use, and immorality. By modern standards, I think I may seem prudish. But I come from an old fashioned southerners household which takes things like this seriously. In large part, this is because of our religious beliefs.

I hope you won't dismiss my standards out of hand, though, because many of us share the same idea with respect to historical accuracy. We deplore movies that take liberties with history, feeling almsot a sacred duty to get it right. To fail to do so, we feel, is to do an injustice to the men and women who went through those times. Thus, our loathing for TMTSNBN and others like it.

I make allowances for profanity etc. when used correctly in historical context - Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List for example. But think of the great old movies from the '30s through the '50s - no profanity, no vulgarity, etc. - and they are just marvelous. The '60s and '70s (and also through current day) deviated from that sharply, but especially the '70s, when directors flaunted their newfound freedom and lack of standards to pour it on even when it wasn't necessary. Execrable.

Since the '90s, many filmmakers have exercised a commendable level of self control. While these things I deplore are still common, there are so many great movies that are nearly totally free of it - think of it - Pirates of the Carribean, Les Miserables, most of the super hero movies, Lord of the Rings trilogy, Narnia trilogy. Many more delve into these things for historical accuracy - Enemy at the Gates, Zero Dark Thirty, and others.

Perhaps you can understand why, from my narrow perspective, the golden era of film making was '30 to '50s and '90s to present, while the '70s were bad.

I like the old stuff too-especially the noir films of the 40s and 50s. I still start sniffling whenever I see the end to Casablanca. (Allergies, I assure you.)

Just watched the Thin Man with Myrna Loy. One of the last films made before the Hays
Commission barred the door. Myrna Loy was crazy funny and so beautiful it hurts. And, some of the outfits she wore just made me blush....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:54:18 AM

yubari

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
One big reason I'm opinionated about movies is that I detest gratuitous sex,

Yes, I agree about the gratuitous bit. It really is quite hard to find a TV program nowadays without gratuitous f***ing in nowadays, taken to an extreme level by "Game of Thrones". Hey, why have just plot explanantion on screen when you can have plot explanation at the same time as fairly hardcore porn.

Last days of Rome.....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 8:18:10 AM

JocMeister

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The Godfather pt. I and pt. II are probably two of the best movies ever made! (IMO and all that). Both from the 70s!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 8:31:44 AM

JeffroK

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Good 70's movies

One flew over the cuckoos nest, American Graffiti, Enter the Dragon.

You're right, there isn't a lot.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 8:37:43 AM

Encircled

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Cross of Iron
Serpico
The life of Brian

love "A boy and his dog"!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 1:41:26 PM

Canoerebel

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Thanks for chiming in. You men are gents. Religion is such a delicate subject - public discussion is now all but taboo - that I half feared my comments would unleash a torrent of unkind comments. I won't go any further with it, other than to say it's such a central part of who we are that avoiding the topic completely seems contrived. Now, to move on.

Back in college, I lived on Third Floor, Myers Hall, which was populated by the best men ever. Just good guys you'd all like: Vendo, Blue Toe, Moon Pie, Hoss Fly, and many others just as memorable. Late one night, we engaged in one of those group "meet in the hallway, order pizza, and sit around and shoot the breeze" discussions that were so memorable. "The Cause" (that was his nickname, because he was just as cool as The Fonze) brought up the topic of movies that, as he put it, "could bring a tear to the eye." For this distinction, he nominated Shenandoah - specifically, the closing scene in which the simple country family - its ranks sadly depleted by those killed during the war - gathers in its little country church. Suddenly, the door opens and the youngest boy, who they thought had died in the war, hobbles in on a crutch. The amazed congregation breaks into "The Doxology."

The Cause was right - it was hard for even the toughest of college men to watch that without "a tear in the eye."

There are two other movies that I have a tough time with for similar, thought not exactly the same, reasons.

First, there's the scene in Gone With the Wind in which Scarlett, horrified by the mayhem that has engulfed Atlanta, leaves the hospital and crosses the train tracks...and wades through the yard that is utterly filled with wounded and dying men on stretchers. And the camera pulls back, and she gets smaller and smaller, engulfed in a the sea of casualties...and then the camera pulls back far enough for the flagpole to come into view...bearing the tattered Confederate flag.

That scene depicts the horror and futility of the war that words could not express.

Similarly, in the modern movie Gettysburg, I cannot bring myself to watch Pickett's Charge. Seriously. When me and my boys watch that movie on occassion, I just leave the room for the penultimate part of the movie. Too painful. All those men ordered to their deaths for a cause that was futile. What was it that William Faulkner said about "for every teenage southern boy there comes a time when it is two o'clock on July 3, 1863..." (I won't say anything further - we had a lengthy forum discussion of this les than a year ago, I believe).

Thanks again, gents. I enjoy the opinions and insights and experiences that come from such a diverse and thoughtful group of men. I think nearly all of you guys are Honorary Southerners. :)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/27/2013 1:43:50 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 4:56:39 PM

JohnDillworth

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A couple more notes on the movie discussion. The X-men series should be called out for being good action movies that dispensed with cursing and excessive violence. IIRC there is no blood in at least he first 2 movies. As for scenes I find hard to watch I'd like to call out the excellent Gallipoli. The bombardment failed, everyone knew it failed, everyone knew what was about to happen and yet when the whistle blew, over the top they went.
Gallipoli was a historical event but the excellent movie was based on an even better book by Alan Moorehead. Alan Moorehead was entirely incapable of writing a dull sentence much less a dull book. Every single sentence he writes is a tribute to the English language. He can be read just for his mastery of the language and the joy it is to read a master at the top of his game. Not difficult, just clear, concise, interesting and conversational. Gallipoli is a wonderful read for those that like military history is just plain old good reading. One of the finest, if not the finest, books ever written about a military campaign. All of his books are masterpieces but the pinnacle is The Fatal Impact: The Invasion of the South Pacific, 1767-1840.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 4:57:25 PM

Canoerebel

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12/12/42

Carriers: The KB "slipped into the shades" of the IO, somewhere between Diego Garcia and Sumatra. The Allied carriers have replenished and refueled and will depart Colombo tonight, ready to engage in another game of chicken, as I hope to get some of those merchantmen into port at Sabang. The fuel crisis there has been somewhat alleviated, though, as the port seems to be drawing from Medan, permitting most of my small ships - including the subs - to fully refuel. So the Allied combat ships at Sabang are pretty much operating at 100% right now. One objective is to "evacuate" the two damaged slow BBs and get them started towards Capetown, but that's hazardous maneuvering.

Sumatra: Langsa airfield goes to level three. Sabang is at 7.36% and could reach eight in as little as 11 days.

Burma: Probing deliberate attack in the jungle offers some hope of eventually whittling down the enemy, but not much.

Noumea: The landings here go very well (little to no disruption; little damage from shore guns). The Allies have about 240 AV ashore vs. about the same for the enemy. I'll try a probing deliberate attack tomorrow to see if three days of bombardments have had any effect. Probably not, but I need to know. I think John is orchestrating an ambush here (he has the hardest time maintaining OpSec in his emails). A small Allied DD force encountered a sizeable enemy TF of two CL and about ten DD. That could be it, or John may also have LBA and a small carrier force in range. The three Allied CVE will hop a few hexes north, hoping to avoid surface combat and to perhaps unleash some Dauntlesses on enemy shipping. Tennessee and Idaho will remain at Noumea to bombard tomorrow.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 5:16:39 PM

Canoerebel

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That's a high recommendation of a book, John. Since you have a history of recommending good books, I'll take you up on the suggestion.

Have you read We Were Soldiers Once? If so, how did it compare in your estimation?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 5:25:45 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Have you read We Were Soldiers Once? If so, how did it compare in your estimation?

I have not read it. Does it have your recommendation?
BTW both We Were Soldiers Once and Gallipoli have something in common. Can you guess what that is?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 5:27:37 PM

Lecivius

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Imagine John watching the post count in this AAR. It must be driving him crazy

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 5:35:15 PM

Canoerebel

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John, We Were Soldiers and Gallipoli have in common that they are non fiction. Am I right?

We Were Soldiers is the finest work on non fiction history that I've ever read. I don't see how you could have a finer book. It's written by the commanding American officer, who interviewed his troops, the families of many of his men that were killed, and the commanding officer of the enemy forces. And then he wove this into a gripping, mesmerizing, and at times horrifying account of a "we're surrounded and under attack deep in Indian country" tale. (Too bad the movie is a steaming pile of dung from an overheated jungle bat.)

Lecivius: :)

And it aint even intentional. I just really, really enjoy the AE Forum community. There are a great deal of folks here that I'd enjoy drinking a beer with (if I drank beer).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 6:42:31 PM

JohnDillworth

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High recommendation indeed. It has gone right on my Kindle reading list, and will move up to the # 3 slot. I have just finished two months of reading contract proposals and keeping current on my certifications and have only recently regained my cherished hour or two a day of discretionary reading time. #2 on my list is the pulp sci-fi "The Chronicles of Amber " because I deserve to read a bit of junk. I just finished the excellent The Guns at Last Light: The War in Western Europe, 1944-1945. #1 on my current reading list is Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. This book seems to have irritated just about everybody and as far as I can tell none of the complainers have read it. So far it is attempting, quite successfully, to use the historical record to tell the story of the Jesus the Man, not Jesus the Christ. Enough about that for this group
As for the riddle it was simple. Both We Were Soldiers and Gallipoli were major motion pictures starring Mel Gibson. Enough said about him too except the movie Gallipoli was good and he was good in it

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 8/27/2013 6:44:04 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 6:45:15 PM

crsutton

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Well, I certainly hope all this AAR stuff won't hijack our wonderful movie thread.

I stumbled on a gem of a movie last year called "I was Nineteen." It is a German war film made in 1968 about a native German youth fighting in the Soviet army as the end nears for Germany during the last days of the war. His parents were German communists and fled to Russia when the Nazis took power. You can get it from Netflixs. A stunning film.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061802/

That is all I have to say about that.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 8/27/2013 6:46:34 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 6:51:30 PM

Canoerebel

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I didn't realize Gibson was in Gallipoli. I've only seen that movie once - it was in the early '80s or so when I was in college. Gibson can take interesting history and twist it into things unrecognizable as history. We Were Soldiers was bad. The Patriot might have been worse.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/27/2013 6:56:33 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:15:29 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Well, I certainly hope all this AAR stuff won't hijack our wonderful movie thread.

just killing time between turns. for some reason this particular forum, for the most part is capable of discussing other things without treading into politics or religion. I suspect this group has members across the political and social spectrum but we manage to avoid the land mines. Nice to have a place like this. Even Facebook is useless now because of politics. I'll look into I was Nineteen.
Dan, yes, the Patriot was worse. I'm kind of a stickler for historical accuracy and that was just terrible on so many levels.

Oh, here is a movie with cursing and blood but those things are essential to the telling of the story. The movie? Master & Commander, the far side of the world

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:22:02 PM

pws1225

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quote:

Master & Commander, the far side of the world

+1 to that!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:29:25 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I didn't realize Gibson was in Gallipoli. I've only seen that movie once - it was in the early '80s or so when I was in college. Gibson can take interesting history and twist it into things unrecognizable as history. We Were Soldiers was bad. The Patriot might have been worse.

Not a big fan of his. But Gallipoli was not really his film. He was a very young actor when it was made. And did a great job for a change.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:34:44 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

Not a big fan of his. But Gallipoli was not really his film. He was a very young actor when it was made. And did a great job for a change.

Little know fact about Mel Gibson is that he was in one of the best Christmas Movies ever made.......Lethal Weapon.

Of course everyone knows the best Christmas movie ever made was Die Hard

In all seriousness the book Gallipoli is much much more than the movie. It is the global strategic situation of the war, the importance of the Dardanelles, how taking the straits might have won the war, the danger to ships when bombarding strong shore defenses, the failure of the Royal Navy, the strengths, weakness and the fall from grace of Churchill, the grandfather of the pacific amphibious assaults, the contempt of the Aussie soldiers by their British masters and the bad timing of the final assault. As always, the book is better than the movie

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 8/27/2013 7:42:13 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:40:53 PM

catwhoorg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Not a big fan of his. But Gallipoli was not really his film. He was a very young actor when it was made. And did a great job for a change.

This is the key. He was there purely as an actor, and one who was new enough to do as he was directed to.

The moment he got more say in films, is when they went wrong. He prejudices boil to the surface quickly.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 7:49:51 PM

catwhoorg

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Another one to try to find.
Geoff Burrowes ANZACS mini-series, produced in the mid-80s. Paul Hogan is one of the leads.

It aired in the UK in a fairly dead slot, middle of the afternoon during the workweek, one episode per day. However, it did so during a week where many schools were closed. I assume it was for weather, but it could have been during a half term week.
Each episode roughly coincides with the key events in a year. 1914 training. 1915 Gallipolli etc.

Ratings ramped up rapidly during the week, so much so, that they re-aired it in an evening slot to very impressive audience figures.
One of the first shows I can recall word of mouth quickly spreading and getting the popularity through the roof.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 9:30:44 PM

obvert

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quote:

Thanks again, gents. I enjoy the opinions and insights and experiences that come from such a diverse and thoughtful group of men. I think nearly all of you guys are Honorary Southerners. :)

Gracious indeed.

I did live in the South for six years and being a west coaster I didn't suffer from the immediate identity recognition of being a northerner. I also spent two years in a house in the woods in a small village populated mostly by ex-factory workers and my neighbor was a 92 year-old woman named Mary Council. She would call me over to change her light bulb, make me a cup of tea, and tell stories about her grandchildren and garden and 'her' Mocking Bird that sat on the wire next to her house and sang all night. My house had no heating or AC and I used a wood stove for heat and sweat for cooling down. It was a great time and the South is still in my heart, a comfortingly warm night populated by the shimmering of lightning bugs, glow worms and tarheel lady I'll never forget.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 10:37:40 PM

desicat

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If you want a book full of "Historic" quotes, heroic action, personal honor on display, and unquestionable courage, then pick up Queen Victoria's Little Wars, you won't regret it.

As a plus you can find out what happened to Napoleon's grandson while he was traveling with the Queen's troops in South Africa! You will never guess.....

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 3298

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/27/2013 11:44:35 PM

princep01

Posts: 943
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

While there are no end of books about movies and cinema making, there is one of particular interest to us movie/history types. It is Past Imperfect, History According to the Movies. It is a Society of American Historians book that looks at the historical accuracy of about 60 films by various historians. For example, the film Julius Caesar is review by Michael Grant, an excellent historian of the classical period (and a friend). A Man for All Seasons by Richard Marius, The Last of the Mohicans by Richard White, Glory by the excellent historian, James M McPherson, Khartoum by David L Lewis, Patton by Paul Fussell, The Longest Day by Stephen Ambrose, Dr Strangelove by Paul Boyer and Gallipoli by Kenneth T Jackson. If you have ever wondered about the historical accuracy and the place in "historical cinema" of some great films, this book may be for you. I really enjoyed it alot and learned a great deal about a lot of films I loved. Published in 1995, it may still be in print or available from Amazon, etc.

(in reply to desicat)

Post #: 3299

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 3:33:04 AM

Canoerebel

Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline

12/13/42

Wow, so many good recommendations from you gents. I won't have to search high and low for good reading. Princep, that's a great idea for a book. I'll add that to my list.

Meanwhile, I am late in posting an update for this turn. I ran it mid afternoon, but then had to go to Atlanta. Turn interruptus.

Carriers: KB has disappeared. My carriers are about five hexes south of Ceylon. Tomorrow, they are sticking their noses out very far, moving southwesterly to a point where the KB was just a few days back. If John turns his carriers around, we're gonna clash, but I don't think he will...at least not quite yet. I need my carriers pretty far out in order to try to get the merchantment to Sabang.

Burma: CAP trap over two IJA divsions near Schwebo claims a bunch (60+) of Blenheims and Hudsons and a few B-25s.

Noumea: The Allied attack came off at 1:2, found three forts, and did a little more damage to the Japanese. The results were mildly encouraging, but I know John is marching in a second part of 56th Div. from adjacent La Foa. I'm going to try to cross him up by landing 40 AV or so at La Fao in hopes it will prove vacant. My CVEs will remain nearby. An SBD raid against shipping at Koumac ran afoul of strong CAP, costing roughly 6 or 8 of the dive bombers.

(in reply to princep01)

Post #: 3300

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