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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/7/2016 10:47:17 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

Kamikazes are triggered when the Allies capture a base within 20 hexes, by sea, of Tokyo, Takao or Saigon. So only the inner Kuriles will trigger Kamikazes, and only on or after 1Jan1944.


Actually, none of the Kuriles... you can capture all the way down to and including Etorofu. That K-named base off Kushiro is actually coded as Japan, I think (like Paramushiro is), so should probably be considered an offshore piece of Hokkaido rather than a Kurile. But I'm being pedantic.


So if it isn't the Kuriles and it isn't Sumatra again, then...

Perhaps something to make all of John's stuff in SOPAC into a POW camp? Hence a "big tent"?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/8/2016 8:29:24 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Hello, Gents. I've been at the beach today, where we were under a "tropical storm warning" with sunshine and nearly calm seas. Okay.

Once, many years ago, I went for an early morning jog heading northeast towards the rising sun (not that rising sun!). Far in the distance I saw two young men walk onto the beach, strip off their clothes, and run into the ocean. Just my luck. Men.

I'll give one answer regarding Big Tent. NoPac was eliminated immediately. Operation Circus (the invasion of Hokkaido re-routed to the Aluetians) lit a fire under John's seat. For months afterwards, SigInt was lit up with troops diverting to the Aluetians, Hokkaido, etc. Hokkaido is a run target to hit, but only when the enemy isn't expecting it.

I've look at nearly every other possibility out there, from Sumatra to Oz to New Guinea to the Home Islands. I don't think there was a perfect target, but I came up with two the I looked at longest before finally selecting one. You guys are doing a decent job of discussing (and sometimes eliminating) places that are/were under consideration.



Any green dots left in the Philippines or DEI??

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/8/2016 4:24:32 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Hmmmm. All this talk about kamikazes. For the record and prior experience I offer up that kamikazes are a threat and a nuisance but not a game changer. I would never eliminate a potential objective based on if it would or would not trigger kamikazes. If I think I can take the objective and think it would serve my purpose then I would do so, kamikaze or no. If you trigger them in 1943 it is because you are winning-not losing the campaign.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 6/8/2016 4:27:21 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/8/2016 6:11:05 PM   
BillBrown


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Status: offline 		Kamikazes are not activated before Jan 1, 1944.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/8/2016 8:18:02 PM   
Flicker

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 11/24/2011
From: Rocket City USA
Status: offline 		It's October 1943. Winter is coming.

I'm looking forward to a surprise invasion of the Cocos Islands. CR usually likes to have the Cocos as a backup, now it can be his vanguard.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/9/2016 4:40:21 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Kamikazes are not activated before Jan 1, 1944.



There, like he said!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/9/2016 6:23:13 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hmmmm. All this talk about kamikazes. For the record and prior experience I offer up that kamikazes are a threat and a nuisance but not a game changer. I would never eliminate a potential objective based on if it would or would not trigger kamikazes. If I think I can take the objective and think it would serve my purpose then I would do so, kamikaze or no. If you trigger them in 1943 it is because you are winning-not losing the campaign.
Successful Kamikaze attacks are not devastating enough to be a serious threat to the Allies. When you combine that with game mechanics that reduce the chances for successful attacks, Kamikazes are little more than a nuisance to properly protected Allied TFs. My experience is that proper protection requires CVEs, and the more the merrier since this allows for the use of more TFs capable of operating indepently.

Barring unacceptably high losses, the Allies have enough CVEs in early 1944 to mount a single large integrated operation wherever they desire. But it is not until about mid-1944 that the CVEs are plentiful enough to mount such operations without delays between them to allow for ship recovery and TF reorganization. As such, the biggest impact from early triggering of Kamikazes is on the pace of Allied operations. But then the impact I notice is a function of my own playing habits and level of caution, and some might have issues with both.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/9/2016 7:26:58 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Hmmmm. All this talk about kamikazes. For the record and prior experience I offer up that kamikazes are a threat and a nuisance but not a game changer. I would never eliminate a potential objective based on if it would or would not trigger kamikazes. If I think I can take the objective and think it would serve my purpose then I would do so, kamikaze or no. If you trigger them in 1943 it is because you are winning-not losing the campaign.
Successful Kamikaze attacks are not devastating enough to be a serious threat to the Allies. When you combine that with game mechanics that reduce the chances for successful attacks, Kamikazes are little more than a nuisance to properly protected Allied TFs. My experience is that proper protection requires CVEs, and the more the merrier since this allows for the use of more TFs capable of operating indepently.

Barring unacceptably high losses, the Allies have enough CVEs in early 1944 to mount a single large integrated operation wherever they desire. But it is not until about mid-1944 that the CVEs are plentiful enough to mount such operations without delays between them to allow for ship recovery and TF reorganization. As such, the biggest impact from early triggering of Kamikazes is on the pace of Allied operations. But then the impact I notice is a function of my own playing habits and level of caution, and some might have issues with both.


No, I think you're pretty much right on here. Any strengthening/expansion of the IJ aerial capabilities does this.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 7:59:17 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Being serious, anything close to the Home Islands would be silly.

I reckon Ponape, subject to heavy recon.

Its unlimited, close enough to make Truk unusable and is a back entrance to Rabaul.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 10:04:01 AM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
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From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Marcus I think

Any unsupported bases are going to be very hard for John to defend, or even interdict with acceptable risk.





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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 12:32:02 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Marcus would definitely be a thorn in John's side, but Canoe would need to bring 100% prepped troops & be prepared for a sharp response (since John's carriers would be relatively close by).


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 12:37:46 PM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Big tent is big, I'd think. Marcus is not big.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 2:21:35 PM   
Jellicoe


Posts: 157
Joined: 9/26/2012
From: Kent, UK
Status: offline 		I reckon it's the Carolines and maybe hollandia as well - cuts off Swpac and Truk, avoids fortress Mariana and threatens Southern Philippines. Would have wanted Gilbert's or Ponape to secure LOC a bit more for this though


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 2:50:08 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		It's going to be an invasion of Marcus "as Canoe is passing by" on his way to the Marianas.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 4:06:26 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		I think the Marianas would be a victim of "linear" thinking - obviously they are now vulnerable due to the recent carrier battle, success in the Marshalls, and the fall of Wake....they are too "obvious."

I expect Canoe is going to employ more dynamic thinking & hit somewhere John hasn't had months to reinforce.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 5:20:27 PM   
Flicker

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 11/24/2011
From: Rocket City USA
Status: offline 		paullus99 - I don't disagree, however there is value in the 'linear' route. The Marianas are the next point in a straight line to Luzon and Manila. I don't know how developed the Marianas are, but I suspect CR has an idea. If they do not have interlocking airbases now, they would after CR takes them.

crsutton IMO rightly says: "Late game play really demands a major advanced ship yard. Manila, Hong Kong or Singapore. One of them must be taken." Manila it is then.

Perhaps the Death Star can do it and make it costly for the probably-not-totally-emasculated KB.



< Message edited by Flicker -- 6/10/2016 5:24:27 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 6:01:53 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		Manila is too far to support as there are too many IJ bases that can interdict at the present time. It's the Marianas!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 6:12:59 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		I'm an JFB, but just how many divisions can Canoe have fully prepped for Big Tent?

He lost a few in Sumatra, and has used units in the Aleutians, Marshalls and Wake.

Will he have enough for the Marianas?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 8:38:01 PM   
poodlebrain

 

Posts: 392
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From: Comfy Chair in Baton Rouge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I'm an JFB, but just how many divisions can Canoe have fully prepped for Big Tent?

He lost a few in Sumatra, and has used units in the Aleutians, Marshalls and Wake.

Will he have enough for the Marianas?
I don't think he has enough to capture all of the Marianas at once. But I think he has enough to capture the Marianas in stages. If CR can capture Tinian and Pagan, the battle for control of the Marianas will come down to who can keep their bases in supply and operational. My money is on the USN.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 10:07:12 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2948
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Status: offline 		Before Okinawa comes the Marianas...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 11:03:48 PM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		Marcus is a dot in the sea, stacking of ???, totally unsupported and so easy to isolate. The Marianas makes more sense.

IMVHO JIII hasnt been hit so hard as to try something too "out there"

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/10/2016 11:09:48 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Status: offline 		not yet me thinks. not the Philippines. With the KB at heel (for now) the advantage lies with attacking places that do not have interlocking airfields

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 4:08:33 AM   
Flicker

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 11/24/2011
From: Rocket City USA
Status: offline 		JohnD - lol, I would think that NOW is the time to attack a place with interlocking airfields (like the Marianas) because now is when they are most vulnerable (without KB). Maybe by the time KB shows up, they'll be CR's interlocking airfields with US fighters and the Death Star. I wonder about the numbers for the ports / airfields / forts in the Marianas.

I think the Marianas (and Marcus in passing) then Manila (as in Luzon in Spring 1944), with supporting operations to clean up the flanks in the Marshalls, Solomons, and Carolines.

I might even start with a big Marshalls op to pull the Japanese that way...




< Message edited by Flicker -- 6/11/2016 4:12:07 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 7:07:18 AM   
JeffroK


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Status: offline 		JohnD - lol, I would think that NOW is the time to attack a place with interlocking airfields (like the Marianas) because now is when they are most vulnerable (without KB). Maybe by the time KB shows up, they'll be CR's interlocking airfields with US fighters and the Death Star. I wonder about the numbers for the ports / airfields / forts in the Marianas.

How damaged is KB????

2 or 3 confirmed sunk.

Most of the losses were aircraft and CVE/CVL.

Given a few weeks to rebuild aircraft numbers, and maybe rearrange pilots, it should be as string as pre "The Battle of Wake"

There is insufficient action around the map to divert resources so everything is focused on the Central Pacific.

Maybe time is past for small steps, but far from ready for giant leaps into the Gorilla Cage.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 9:16:16 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Marcus is a dot in the sea, stacking of ???, totally unsupported and so easy to isolate. The Marianas makes more sense.

IMVHO JIII hasnt been hit so hard as to try something too "out there"


Lots of good posts since I last checked in - too many to reply to. But JeffK hits the nail on the head with regard to Marcus - I don't think it's particularly hard to take but it's would be hard to hold unless part of an "umbrella" of Allied objectives, such as Shokaku, Kyushu, Okinawa and/or the Bonins.

Whether that's the plan, I won't reveal in detail. But I can offer that a US Army division has been prepping for Marcus. :)

Marcus's value is greater than it might first seem because it further unhinges John's entire perimeter - take it and suddenly the Marshalls seem irrelevant as John has to fully attend to the places I just listed. If he's not prepared, he has to scramble.

I agree that KB isn't gutted, but I think Death Star can go where it wants to as long as it doesn't venture into waters where KB can join with multiple big interlocking airfields.

So, is Marcus on the agenda? Stay tuned. :)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 9:20:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		There are problems with nearly any target: Hokkaido is now well defended, Shokaku and Kyushu are within the umbrella of Home Island airfields, Okinawa is within the main perimeter, the various Philippines groups have major interlocking arifields and will have the Marianas to their back unless I first attend to those, the Marianas are tough nuts and I don't have a good port to replenish from (as I did in the campaign vs. Wake, which limits bombardments, so that's a big concern), and so it goes as I continue to evaluate potential targets. Some of those are still high-priority targets under consideration, but there are others out there also, ranging as far away as Timor and Java.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 10:39:44 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		BTW, how was vacation? Got some terrible weather. hope you made the best of it.


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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 10:56:00 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for asking, John. We got rain one night and some light rain part of one day. That was it for "foul" weather.

I like rain at the beach and usually spend as much time in the water then as when it's sunny. The humidity was pretty low most of the week, which made the breeze seem too cool (evaporative effect).

We returned home today, where it was 97 degrees and humid. Ouch! It's summertime in Georgia.

How're things on Long Island these days?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/11/2016 11:06:45 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

How're things on Long Island these days?
humid today but in general a cool wet spring. It can get pretty hot and humid in this part of the world in the summer. 97 and humid is not rare. Been too busy at work to notice.

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 6/12/2016 11:25:12 AM >

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/12/2016 1:02:30 AM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline 		Since you are entertaining ideas about where to go next, I will suggest Southern Java puts you astride most oilfields with 4E bombers and then allows you to go into Borneo, Southern PI or Malaysia. There would be plenty of airfields to take and support your initial landings and future plans plus it avoids and avenges your recent loses in Northern Sumatra.

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Post #: 6780
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