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- 2/8/2001 2:38:00 AM

hhsohn

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/21/2000
From: Walnut, California, USA
Status: offline

Speaking of old weapons, I've been thinking of starting a WW2 rifle collection. Any recommendations or comments on some of these cheap bolt action rifles floating around in sporting good stores? I'm in Los Angeles area, and I've seen some old Enfields and Russian rifles, but they seem to be rechambered for more popular ammo. I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions.

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Post #: 31

- 2/8/2001 2:48:00 AM

orc4hire

Posts: 149
Joined: 7/31/2000
Status: offline

hhsohn, Go here: http://talk.shooters.com/ They've got several forums on collecting military firearms.

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Post #: 32

- 2/8/2001 6:11:00 AM

Blackhorse

Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by USMCGrunt: The Browning .50 caliber heavy machine gun is still around and still in use in the US military. Also, the Thompson SMG and the M3A1 grease gun were used as recently as Vietnam by US forces.

Grunt is even righter than he knows. Up until the mid-80s at least US Army M60 tanks had an M3A1 grease gun on the turret wall by the loader's station in case the crew had to bail. Our APCs were equipped with the WWII-vintage "Ma Deuce" .50 machine guns. The M60 had a different model (the M85) -- but the Army revived the M2 again to become the commander's MG on the Abrams. Thinking about the M85 being replaced by the older but more reliable "Ma Deuce" gets me to thinking about other weapons failures -- like the excrable M219 coaxial MG in the M551 Sheridan. What other modern-era weapons are/were *worse* than their WWII counterparts?

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Post #: 33

- 2/8/2001 6:54:00 AM

CaptainBrian

Posts: 59
Joined: 12/27/2000
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Blackhorse: Grunt is even righter than he knows. Up until the mid-80s at least US Army M60 tanks had an M3A1 grease gun on the turret wall by the loader's station in case the crew had to bail. Our APCs were equipped with the WWII-vintage "Ma Deuce" .50 machine guns. The M60 had a different model (the M85) -- but the Army revived the M2 again to become the commander's MG on the Abrams. Thinking about the M85 being replaced by the older but more reliable "Ma Deuce" gets me to thinking about other weapons failures -- like the excrable M219 coaxial MG in the M551 Sheridan. What other modern-era weapons are/were *worse* than their WWII counterparts?

The M85....who designed the links for the M85's ammo belts ? That has to be one of the biggest ,short-sighted blunders ever !!! During a CAX in 1988 I had the pleasure of being on a working party breaking the M85 ammo belts apart and relinking them to be used by the M-2s on the BLT's AAVs. To top all off, the slackers...oops I meant trackers...threw the relinked ammo overboard so they wouldn't have to shoot most of it and dirty their weapons.

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Post #: 34

- 2/8/2001 7:04:00 AM

USMCGrunt

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Blackhorse: Grunt is even righter than he knows. Up until the mid-80s at least US Army M60 tanks had an M3A1 grease gun on the turret wall by the loader's station in case the crew had to bail.

Blackhorse, Thanks for the info. I thought the M3A1's were kept around past the Vietnam era, but I never had any first hand info on the fact. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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Post #: 35

- 2/8/2001 7:06:00 AM

john g

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by hhsohn: Speaking of old weapons, I've been thinking of starting a WW2 rifle collection. Any recommendations or comments on some of these cheap bolt action rifles floating around in sporting good stores? I'm in Los Angeles area, and I've seen some old Enfields and Russian rifles, but they seem to be rechambered for more popular ammo. I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions.

As far as Enfields go, check out the Enfield collectors digest, or some of the collector web pages. When they start talking about the five long Lees that are stored in Tibet, it seems that every Enfield ever built has someone keeping track of it. I bought a Lithgow built (Austrailian) smle, though it is a JJ co import and currently has a replacement bolt with odd markings. If you want a collector piece, stay away from Enfields, all the really good ones were bought up years ago. If you want something to shoot, or hang on the wall, that is a different story. Personally I think the smle was the most attractive bolt action rifle to ever make it to war, and that fact that my 60 year old rifle still shoots ok is a bonus. thanks, John.

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Post #: 36

- 2/8/2001 7:46:00 AM

TheOriginalOverlord

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline

quote:

Blackhorse, Thanks for the info. I thought the M3A1's were kept around past the Vietnam era, but I never had any first hand info on the fact.

Actually, during that last Persian Gulf flareup when they deployed some troops over there to use prepositioned equipment (in '96 I think) I saw a tanker get of the transport with a M3A1, so I'm sure there are some still active. ------------------ Semper Fi! Overlord

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Post #: 37

- 2/8/2001 8:07:00 AM

USMCGrunt

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Overlord: Actually, during that last Persian Gulf flareup when they deployed some troops over there to use prepositioned equipment (in '96 I think) I saw a tanker get of the transport with a M3A1, so I'm sure there are some still active.

Not sure about that one Blackhorse. All the tankers I worked with while I was in (89-94) carried the M16A2. I could be wrong though. We'll have to run that by 1stSgtUSMC to check. He's a tanker and was in at the time (and still is). ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

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Post #: 38

- 2/8/2001 8:23:00 AM

TheOriginalOverlord

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline

That was me, not Blackhorse. I should have clarified, those were US Army tankers with the "Grease Guns". You are correct we (USMC) haven't used those in years. ------------------ Semper Fi! Overlord

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Post #: 39

- 2/8/2001 9:19:00 AM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
Status: offline

Thanks for the mentions of the grease gun. During my two years as an enlisted 11B with 2nd Bde, 8th ID in Baumholder, Germany, 1974-75, I was a track driver (M577) for brigade hqs. My personal weapon was a grease gun. I recall we didn't qualify with it, only "familiarized," which means we got to fire it at targets for fun. And it was great fun. The final time I fired a weapon in the Army was when I qualified in 1992 at Ft. Polk, La., with my trusty M1911A1 (I think the A1 is correct; I'm sure someone will correct me if I screwed it up.) .45. I never could hit crap with a pistol, although I was always a very good shot with a rifle, so the NCOs running the qualification range "helped the major" through my qualification, if you know what I mean. If you don't, that means we kind of kept at it until I had enough holes in the right place in the target and kind of lost track of how many rounds I fired. The moral: If you're an officer, always treat your NCOs really, really nice.

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Post #: 40

- 2/8/2001 11:58:00 AM

Greg McCarty

Posts: 234
Joined: 6/15/2000
From: woodbury,mn,usa
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by orc4hire: The MG42 is still in use too; converted to NATO caliber and with a few other minor changes it still serves the German army as the MG1 (I believe that's the designation....)

Quite right. The designation is actually MG-3, and has a squad support version w\bi-pod and is also commonly found on a vehicle mount. Somewhat enhanced, the appearance and performance of the weapon is very much as the original. It is briefly discussed and pictured in "Modern Land Combat" Portland House, C. 1987. ------------------ Greg. 37 mill AA... can suddenly ruin your day.

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Post #: 41

- 2/8/2001 12:05:00 PM

1stSgt USMC

Posts: 58
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Twentynine Palms
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by USMCGrunt: Jerrek, just an FYI. (Sorry 1stSgt, I'll work on bringing it down to 6")

Grunt your on the Next Range Detail!! I may have missed it. My apoligies I just rolled in from Victorville Ca (George AFB) watching a platoon of my Tanks and 3/4 taking part in the Marine Corps' Warfighting Lab Urban experiment GREAT SH**!! BUT....How about the Flamethrower, or the Flame Tank. ------------------ 1stSgt Semper Fi "Steel on Target" Company B 1st Tank Bn

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Post #: 42

- 2/8/2001 6:28:00 PM

Arralen

Posts: 827
Joined: 5/21/2000
Status: offline

The G-11 is a radical improvement - especially as it is able to fire a 3-shot burst into 60mm cirlce at 500m (or something like that), using caseless 4,47mm highspeed ammo - no, armorpiercing it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by orc4hire: Sorry Arralen, that performance doesn't qualify as a radical improvement. Compare the issue weapons of 1840 (single shot black powder muskets, the same basic design as had been in use at the beginning of the century) to the issue weapons of 1900. Now _that's_ a radical improvement in the same span of time as we're looking at.

Just the question what the word "radical" means... Besides, I haven't seen any other gun than the G-11 (and maybe the Steyr Flechette) fire automated 3-shot bursts (and 3 shot only from one pull of the trigger), where the 3rd shot is out of the barrel before the recoil starts to hit the shooter .. it's something like 2000 rounds/minute .. And it's defintily intended that the three shot go into 60mm (or even 80mm) circle instead "all through the same hole" .. chance of doing significant damage is much greater that way. But you're right if you say that the G-11 is still "an ordinary rifle" - really radically changed design you'll find with the Steyr Flechette ... Arralen

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Post #: 43

- 2/8/2001 10:09:00 PM

orc4hire

Posts: 149
Joined: 7/31/2000
Status: offline

Radical: 1. fundamental, basic. 2. carried to the farthest limit, extreme. The switch from smoothbore muskets was radical; it dramatically increased range and accuracy with no performance drawbacks, and drastically changed battlefield tactics. Same with the change from black powder to nitro powder. I can't see placing making ammo slightly more compact, and increasing the cyclic rate a bit, in that same category. Remember, it's the _effect_ that has to be radical, not the design itself. If someone managed to make a rifle out of pudding, that would certainly be different, but if it didn't shoot any better than an existing rifle it wouldn't be much of an advance.

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Post #: 44

- 2/9/2001 12:44:00 AM

USMCGrunt

Posts: 174
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: Yarmouth, ME, US
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by 1stSgt USMC:

Grunt your on the Next Range Detail!! I may have missed it. My apoligies I just rolled in from Victorville Ca (George AFB) watching a platoon of my Tanks and 3/4 taking part in the Marine Corps' Warfighting Lab Urban experiment GREAT SH**!! BUT....How about the Flamethrower, or the Flame Tank. [/B][/QUOTE] Range Detail? Great!!! Always looking to add that 6th award bar to my expert badge. ------------------ USMCGrunt -When it absolutely, positively, has to be destroyed overnight.

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USMCGrunt Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?" But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll! -Rudyard Kipling-

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Post #: 45

- 2/9/2001 6:18:00 AM

Hauptmann6

Posts: 121
Joined: 5/11/2000
From: Portage, MI
Status: offline

The M3 Greyhound would still be usefull as a recon vehicle, fast with an ok gun(not real good pen wise, but it has canister).

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Post #: 46

- 4/10/2001 5:49:00 PM

Tortfeasor

Posts: 137
Joined: 9/4/2000
From: helsinki. Finland
Status: offline

Have you folks forgoten the Moltov coctail. If I remember it right when it`s produktion started first in finland, they emptied first the Koskenkorva bottles (booze) then they fild it with taar and other things. So I think the Moltov coctail works effectively today and same dos the Booze. :) ;) :D :p :( :eek:

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Post #: 47

- 4/10/2001 7:52:00 PM

Major Ed

Posts: 51
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Jackson, MS USA
Status: offline

I believe the explosive C-4 was formulated late in WW2 and is still in use today, also TNT has been around since the 1800's and has not changed. We can't forget napalm (basicly gasoline with with ingredients to make is stick to anything it touches). We also get one of our most famous movie quotes from it: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" And last but not least who can forget the battleships Iowa, New Jersey, Missouri and Wisconsin. 16 in guns may not be the biggest ever carried but with the rocket assisted projectiles they are some of the longest ranged guns ever.

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Post #: 48

- 4/12/2001 6:36:00 PM

JTGEN

Posts: 1279
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline

Well said Tortfeasor. The alcohol works still great and all the other components are widely available. It is everymans weapon. It is also widely used but the ones they use in telly only have gasoline in them. So they are not as good. But it is good to know a tank killing weapon you can make home in case you need one. Althoug somebody might think it is treason to use the Stolichnaja botle that I have at home. I think the old battleships and their guns are not valid any moore. They sure are effective but they take too many men to do the job and still need to get too close to the target in comparison to their size.

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Post #: 49

- 4/13/2001 1:42:00 AM

murx

Posts: 245
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline

I want to give some clarifications on the G-11. orc4hire, that weapon works - the only thing that they couldn't manage was full-auto with a 50 round clip. They couldn't find out why the weapon jammed between the last ten shots on many trials. So they just cut the clip to have only 40 rounds :) and full auto works fine. And Arralen, the Bundeswehr didn't supplied that weapon not because it is expensive but it's unusual ammo; Germany as part of the NATO uses only munition that every other member of the NATO can use (the 120mm tank gun in the M1 Abrahams is the same as the French Le�lerk and German Leopard 2, the 155m artillery ammo can be used by every member and so on down to the infantry weapons). To have a weapon that uses completely different ammo would put additional logistic problems to combined actions. And the discussion over 'radical' improvement... So you said that upgrading from smoth bore to rifled bore was radical ... (so the new smoth bore 120mm cannon is a fallback ?? just joking). The G-11 uses an octagonal bore that way the bullet doesn't loose as much energy as a bullet looses in a rifled bore. Caseless ammo is IMHO as radical as improving from powder and ball loaded guns to cartridge loaded. The ammo is much lighter so a soldier can carry three times the ammo. No need to hide/pickup the cartridge cases in covered ops - there is no trace that a soldier was there and fired a weapon. No hot cases that might hit you or another squadmember. There is no need to have a clip and fill it by hand - the clip for the G-11 carries 80 rounds (2 x 40) and the empty clip is very leightweight in comparision with clips for the G-3, not even mentioning an empty 50-round MG belt...; so the ammo is always distributed clipwise and not a box with loose cartridges. The weapon itself is KISS - keep it simple stupid - meaning the whole fire mechanism is enclosed and no objects can get into it nor can the soldier open the mechanism and by accident break it. The weapon is very reliable and even mud wont really hurt the weapon. Another thing is that the weapon is 'self cleaning' - for all who served for one or another army, remember the weapon cleaning after firing the weapon; the G-11 doesn't need that - each shot will make sure that it bore and mechanism gets a cleaning gas blow. The short and lightweight overall design is well balanced - it is short and light enough to not hinder the soldier - on the other hand long and heavy enough to have a good and accurate hold on the weapon itself. Together with the build in scope and the accuracy of the weapon in single and burst mode it is IMHO a radical improved weapon. murx

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Post #: 50

- 4/14/2001 2:45:00 PM

Gloo

Posts: 272
Joined: 4/4/2001
From: Chapelle-Guillaume
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by jerrek: lets see if any ww2 equipment would still be of use on a modern battlefield...

Well, let me think... :rolleyes: I'd say men perhaps? They're still ready and willing to kill... .

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Post #: 51

- 4/14/2001 11:58:00 PM

ARIS

Posts: 294
Joined: 10/22/2000
From: Greece
Status: offline

Some kamikaze's too... I think I saw some really old Russian equipment in the war at Yugoslavia. Also the 40mm Bofor guns that are used in the Greek army, aren't WWII weapons?

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Post #: 52