RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/27/2016 5:51:00 PM

wings7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
Do you know about Alea Jacta Est series?

Very good and enjoyable series!

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Post #: 181

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/27/2016 8:46:52 PM

Jagdtiger14

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aaatoysandmore:

quote:

More ancient warfare games are needed. Turn based not Total War RTS type and better than Field of Glory at least the AI. I found EU:Rome refreshing as well even if Paradox made it. I just wish someone could make a grand campaign game turn based of Ancient Times/Roman Times like Total War but without all the RTS.

I would like to see the period 493AD to 711AD. Ostrogoths, Visogoths, Byzantium, Franks, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards, Alamans, Jutes, Saxons, Britons, Angles, Picts, Muslims.

Without using the AGEOD game system.

< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 5/27/2016 8:50:14 PM >

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Post #: 182

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/27/2016 9:05:34 PM

MrsWargamer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
If we don't unlock how to make war games 'neat' to a 13 year old, it will die with me. And there's really nothing you can do about it.

I�m not so sure complex wargames have been popular among 13yr olds at *any* time.

Maybe you were the only 13yr old girl owning Tactics II in a 300km radius?

I am pretty much sure I was the only 14yr old owning "Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich" in my city, and it�s a reasonably large city.

I've always been odd and rare. And in truth, in my entirely life, I've only actually met about 5 actual war gamers in person. But I live in a small rural town too. When I was 13, it was a different world for 13 year olds than it is today.

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Post #: 183

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/27/2016 10:30:23 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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quote:

I would like to see the period 493AD to 711AD. Ostrogoths, Visogoths, Byzantium, Franks, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards, Alamans, Jutes, Saxons, Britons, Angles, Picts, Muslims.

Without using the AGEOD game system

why ?
AGEOD system in my opinion is not bad at all..

< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 5/27/2016 10:35:00 PM >

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Post #: 184

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/27/2016 11:15:59 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
AGEOD system in my opinion is not bad at all..

For some reason, I don't care for AGEOD games either; I love how the games look, but after a few attempts I just don't enjoy them. Can't really explain why...

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Post #: 185

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 5:48:07 AM

Jagdtiger14

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quote:

why ? AGEOD system in my opinion is not bad at all..

Well, to be honest, I have not played any AGEOD game. Last year I was deciding on which WWI game to buy and was warned off any AGEOD game. The reasons I was given:
1. The interface is extremely difficult to understand.
2. Lots of crashes/code errors.
3. Learning a game system...I can understand learning the rules to the actual game, I just don't want to learn a gaming system.
4. Ageod has been around for a while now, and I understand its being updated or another version of it is being developed...maybe after that's completed I could give it a try if the reviews on it are good.

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Post #: 186

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 7:16:38 AM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

If we don't unlock how to make war games 'neat' to a 13 year old, it will die with me. And there's really nothing you can do about it.

I recall reading on BattleTech forum about a guy, who had got BattleTech game to entertain some kids who could have been 13 years old or close of that age. They played it and enjoyed of it. About half of the kids were girls and they played it too. He had divided kids into 2 teams: boys and girls. Girls won and "were howling like banshees". Children are from religious families and some of their parents don't like about this sort of entertainment. At least not guy's wife. Now guy has urge to rub his hands and laugh maniacally at front of certain people. That is what I can remember and I can't find the topic right now

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Post #: 187

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 10:38:07 AM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

aaatoysandmore:
quote:

More ancient warfare games are needed. Turn based not Total War RTS type and better than Field of Glory at least the AI. I found EU:Rome refreshing as well even if Paradox made it. I just wish someone could make a grand campaign game turn based of Ancient Times/Roman Times like Total War but without all the RTS.

I would like to see the period 493AD to 711AD. Ostrogoths, Visogoths, Byzantium, Franks, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards, Alamans, Jutes, Saxons, Britons, Angles, Picts, Muslims.

Without using the AGEOD game system.

Hear Hear!

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Post #: 188

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 5:39:03 PM

sIg3b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

When I was 13, it was a different world for 13 year olds than it is today.

Of course! I am just meaning to say it has never been easy to sell complex games for thinking people. Probably equally difficult for Avalon Hill back then and Matrix/Slitherine right now.

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Post #: 189

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 8:10:35 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

When I was 13, it was a different world for 13 year olds than it is today.

Of course! I am just meaning to say it has never been easy to sell complex games for thinking people. Probably equally difficult for Avalon Hill back then and Matrix/Slitherine right now.

I dunno when I was 13 I wanted every Avalon Hill game made and they were like $3.64 and my mom said they were too expensive.

If she'd only lived to see the price of games today.

Luckily though I got $3.00 to $5.00 mowing yards so bought as many as "I" could afford.

Bought the original "Guadacanal" from a friend for $3.00 man did I make mint off that game years later.

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Post #: 190

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 8:38:04 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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sound a bit strange to me, I almost always read enthusiastic reviews of AGEOD system wargames

< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 5/28/2016 8:41:27 PM >

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Post #: 191

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 9:02:18 PM

DonCzirr

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I have Rise of Prussia Gold on my Steam Wishlist but it's only due to my orientation towards anything Prussian ...

They (AGEOD) seem to have some reputation dings on them for stability in the past - so I will buy only at a discount.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 9:11:06 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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well, I own nearly all the AGEOD wargames and I never had stability problems with them

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Post #: 193

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 9:43:44 PM

DonCzirr

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Do you dare to say that customer reviews on Steam may contain inaccuracies or exaggerations?

Thanks for your input on that Hattori.

I love the Eras / subject matter they cover so I may give them more serious consideration going forward ...

Would you say that their games actually fit into the "Complex" category of this original post?

FYI - I don't mind complex at all - if the overall impact of the game is enjoyable ...

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Post #: 194

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 9:43:52 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr

They (AGEOD) seem to have some reputation dings on them for stability in the past - so I will buy only at a discount.

Could hardware and/or operating system be factor in here? Like how SPWAW fraks up only with certain processors and Windows 7?

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 5/28/2016 9:45:56 PM >

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Post #: 195

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 9:55:06 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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I know you are a lover of the Horses and Muskets wargames, and so you should absolutely like the AGEOD wargames of that same period..

I own and I have played both Birth of America and Birth of America 2 and they shine in my opinion.
also AGEOD American Civil War it's a great wargame.

about complexity, although not "monster" they are pretty adequate in my opinion.

I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames"..

< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 5/28/2016 11:14:11 PM >

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Post #: 196

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/28/2016 10:26:05 PM

DonCzirr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

I know you are a lover of the Horses and Muskets wargames, and so you should absolutely like the AGEOD wargames of that some period..
I own and I have played both Birth of America and Birth of America 2 and they shine in my opinion.
also AGEOD American Civil War it's a great wargame.

about complexity, although not "monster" they are pretty adequate in my opinion.

I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames"..

Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me

I have come to look at Wargames like TV shows these days ...

Sometimes you want something heavy and involved like Hannibal or Game of Thrones ... sometimes an old episode of The Office is just the right thing ...

Last night, I was playing Battle Academy 2 on the iPAD while watching TV with the family ...

Today I am playing CMANO for more complexity ... I'm loving the mix of complexities and subject matter currently available.

So - in general, I think the industry is doing well overall and I'm enjoying my hobby today as much as I did 10 or 15 years ago.

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 5:35:10 PM

sIg3b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I dunno when I was 13 I wanted every Avalon Hill game made and they were like $3.64 and my mom said they were too expensive.
If she'd only lived to see the price of games today.

Luckily though I got $3.00 to $5.00 mowing yards so bought as many as "I" could afford.

Bought the original "Guadacanal" from a friend for $3.00 man did I make mint off that game years later.

Ok, let me rephrase again. What I meant was it was just as difficult back then to *make a profit* selling complex games, and you sorta confirm that.

Think of all the great gaming companies that went under, even those who had cashcows: Parker (Risk), Milton Bradley (Axis and Allies), Microprose (Civilization), SSI,...

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Post #: 198

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 10:25:53 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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quote:

Think of all the great gaming companies that went under, even those who had cashcows: Parker (Risk), Milton Bradley (Axis and Allies), Microprose (Civilization), SSI,...

well.. I would not consider "Risk" and "Axis and Allies" under the same category of "Civilization"..
and anyway they are not at all "Complex Wargames..

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Post #: 199

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 10:28:17 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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quote:

So - in general, I think the industry is doing well overall and I'm enjoying my hobby today as much as I did 10 or 15 years ago.

I agree, I enjoy my Wargames and Strategy Games passion today (both in their boardgame and computer game forms) as much as I enjoyed it 30 years ago..

< Message edited by Hattori Hanzo -- 5/29/2016 10:32:39 PM >

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Post #: 200

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 10:31:00 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

I dunno when I was 13 I wanted every Avalon Hill game made and they were like $3.64 and my mom said they were too expensive.
If she'd only lived to see the price of games today.

Luckily though I got $3.00 to $5.00 mowing yards so bought as many as "I" could afford.

Bought the original "Guadacanal" from a friend for $3.00 man did I make mint off that game years later.

Ok, let me rephrase again. What I meant was it was just as difficult back then to *make a profit* selling complex games, and you sorta confirm that.

Think of all the great gaming companies that went under, even those who had cashcows: Parker (Risk), Milton Bradley (Axis and Allies), Microprose (Civilization), SSI,...

I'm not so sure it had so much to do with money as it had to do with "interest" and greed. Out of the thousands of people I became aquainted with and even schoolmates only 4 that I knew were interested in wargaming.

Sure money plays a part in that also, but, had there been more interest like say in a game of Monopoly or LIFE they wouldn't have disappeared so quickly. Avalon Hill was around a very long time as I recall. SSI not so much.

The thing is games are not like toilet paper. We don't "need" games as much as we need toilet paper.

On the other hand we can look at distribution centers like Electronic Arts an Activision and even Sega. They have been around a long long time. Ever since the Intellivision as I recall. They have absorbed a lot of these gaming companies and ended up deciding who stays and who goes. Like Hasbro with Squad Leader they never capitalized on the game sadly. If you want to call the crap they made with the Squad Leader name a Squad Leader clone ot the game Avalon Hill made you'd be sorely mistaken.

The best of times before corporate greed set in was in the 80's and early 90' before Windows 95. Look how many years we got by on Windows 3.1. Why do we need a new OS now nearly every 3 years?

There was a time when developers just made the games for the love of making them and not the money. The "Ultima's", many of the older SSI titles, Sid Meier's early developments and some of the best rpg's you ever played. Once animation and 32bit graphics took hold though they forgot about making 'great' games and then just got into making games for the money and boy did the bugs and unfinished games start to pour out. Patching is a "common" word now. There were two games over the years from 1982 to 1993 that I remember getting patches for in the mail. Ultima II and Master of Magic 1.31. Thas a lot of years and games I never needed a patch.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 5/29/2016 10:33:25 PM >

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Post #: 201

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 10:36:13 PM

aaatoysandmore

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

quote:

So - in general, I think the industry is doing well overall and I'm enjoying my hobby today as much as I did 10 or 15 years ago.

I agree, I enjoy my Wargames and Strategy Games passion today (both in their boardgame and computer game forms) as much as I enjoyed it 30 years ago..

Can't say "I" agree with that. It's just not the same anymore. What I see it totally different from what you see. Perhaps I have more hours into gaming than you over the last 30 years.

What I will say though is I enjoy 30 year old games better than I do today's games.

< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 5/29/2016 10:39:31 PM >

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Post #: 202

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 11:06:25 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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quote:

What I will say though is I enjoy 30 year old games better than I do today's games.

well, in this moment I'm playing the original "Master of Orion"..

and yesterday I played solo an old wargame from "The Wargamer" magazine: The Rise of the House of Sa'ud..

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8454/rise-house-saud

but I like to play also more modern war-strategy-games as Distant Worlds or AGEOD Birth of Rome..

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Post #: 203

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/29/2016 11:16:16 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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quote:

here were two games over the years from 1982 to 1993 that I remember getting patches for in the mail. Ultima II and Master of Magic 1.31.

in that same period (1992-1993) I remember to having received in my mailbox a FREE floppy disk with the last patch directly from the MicroProse USA (WOW, I was living in Italy that years..) for Master of Orion, DarkLands and another computer game that I don't remember now: sweet game memories..

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/30/2016 9:23:12 AM

CaptBeefheart

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Back around that time (maybe slightly later) PC Gamer would bundle a CD-ROM of game patches and demos in each issue. That was one of the few ways to update your games. As a result, games came out of the chute finished, unlike a lot of betas we see from some publishers nowadays.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/30/2016 4:02:40 PM

pzgndr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames"..

Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me

+1

Argh, back in the days when graphics were terrible, there was no such thing as a GUI, no tutorials on YouTube with somebody talking you through a game turn step by step, and the AI (ie, you) sucked playing the game. My God, it was beautiful...

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Post #: 206

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/30/2016 4:08:19 PM

Hattori Hanzo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames"..

Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me

+1

Argh, back in the days when graphics were terrible, there was no such thing as a GUI, no tutorials on YouTube with somebody talking you through a game turn step by step, and the AI (ie, you) sucked playing the game. My God, it was beautiful...

no YouTube yes, but there was the wonderful strategy articles on Computer Gaming World and/or PC Gamer..

and for the boardgames the Avalon Hill General magazines.. I still have my complete original collection

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Post #: 207

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/30/2016 4:17:50 PM

warspite1

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...or for us WIF fans there was the Canadian Wargamers Journal

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/30/2016 4:58:34 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

quote:

ORIGINAL: DonCzirr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo
I'm an old school boardgame "grognard" (55 years old) and I know exactly the meaning of "complex wargames"..

Ah ... from the old 3rd Reich in the Friend's Basement generation like me

+1

Argh, back in the days when graphics were terrible, there was no such thing as a GUI, no tutorials on YouTube with somebody talking you through a game turn step by step, and the AI (ie, you) sucked playing the game. My God, it was beautiful...

no YouTube yes, but there was the wonderful strategy articles on Computer Gaming World and/or PC Gamer..

and for the boardgames the Avalon Hill General magazines.. I still have my complete original collection

And if you don't..... http://www.vftt.co.uk/ah_mags.asp?ProdID=PDF_Gen

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 5/30/2016 5:00:37 PM >

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Post #: 209

RE: The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak - 5/30/2016 5:13:31 PM

sIg3b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hattori Hanzo

quote:

Think of all the great gaming companies that went under, even those who had cashcows: Parker (Risk), Milton Bradley (Axis and Allies), Microprose (Civilization), SSI,...

well.. I would not consider "Risk" and "Axis and Allies" under the same category of "Civilization"..
and anyway they are not at all "Complex Wargames..

Not even CivI was a complex Wargame. But those games were all cashcows.

Besides, Risk and A&A have certainly been used to get beginners interested. I�m not saying it always works. Even A&A type games have been a hard sell to my friends because they find them so complicated.

(in reply to Hattori Hanzo)

Post #: 210