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RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 12:56:41 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 1:59:49 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 2:13:40 PM   
lecrop


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RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 2:50:05 PM   
John 3rd


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Post #: 34
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 3:31:32 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I AGREE! That skipper deserves the "Order of the Rising Sun"!!!!!

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Post #: 35
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 3:34:29 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline 		That was awesome!

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(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 36
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 3:52:15 PM   
Grollub


Posts: 6674
Joined: 10/9/2005
From: Lulea, Sweden
Status: offline 		Had somehing similar in one of my earlier games. Two AM escorts forced a an IJN sub to the surface. They couldn't hit anything ... so the escorted tankers decided to join the fun ...

End result; Three tankers taking one penetrating hit each causing "Fuel cargo burning". They sank.

Oh, and the sub sank too ...

ETA; Great fun with your little "battle AAR"

< Message edited by Grollub -- 3/4/2013 3:53:57 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 4:00:50 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grollub

Had somehing similar in one of my earlier games. Two AM escorts forced a an IJN sub to the surface. They couldn't hit anything ... so the escorted tankers decided to join the fun ...

End result; Three tankers taking one penetrating hit each causing "Fuel cargo burning". They sank.

Oh, and the sub sank too ...

ETA; Great fun with your little "battle AAR"



to me this is pretty much a flawed routine (sorry to say). Why? Because you probably will never ever see a sub scoring so many hits when attacking a convoy submerged, but when the sub is so badly damaged that it is forced to surface it suddenly gets the chance to fire at each and every ship that is firing at the sub. Thank god this doesn't happen often but when it does, it is time to shake your head.

Sub being in sinking condition suddenly taking out halve a dozen ships, something not possible when being undamaged because then you don't get a "gun duel" with the whole convoy during the attack. Hell yeah!

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/4/2013 4:01:14 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 9:32:33 PM   
dcpollay


Posts: 532
Joined: 11/22/2012
From: Upstate New York USA
Status: offline 		To play devil's advocate here (or maybe just stir up trouble ....While the result seems a bit out of whack at first blush, here's my take on it:

The submarine attacks the routine (automatic?) convoy. He is able to make the contact because the sub has a highly skilled, aggressive commander (more likely if this was a PBEM/human Japanese player). He hits his target, and the escort counterattacks. Two hits with a depth charge is not enough to sink a sub in this game. I've had subs take 4-5 hits and not be forced to the surface. I do think subs are a little too sturdy, but it is what it is. However, in this case, the sub comes up, but not critically damaged or nearly sinking. Once on the surface, the sub starts its diesel engines and finds itself with superior maneuverability vs. AKs, superior firepower (torps and 5.5 inch guns vs. 3 inch), and superior gunnery. The convoy ship commanders are probably all bottom-of the barrel if set up by the automatic system, or not specifically assigned by the Allied player. What is a highly skilled, aggressive sub commander to do?

The answer is probably not "run away." As always, there are a lot of specifics we don't know about the battle, but I think there's a lot of room for this to be a reasonable result.

Any other thoughts on this?


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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 39
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 10:13:30 PM   
Chickenboy


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Post #: 40
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 10:19:51 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Mustard

To play devil's advocate here (or maybe just stir up trouble ....While the result seems a bit out of whack at first blush, here's my take on it:

The submarine attacks the routine (automatic?) convoy. He is able to make the contact because the sub has a highly skilled, aggressive commander (more likely if this was a PBEM/human Japanese player). He hits his target, and the escort counterattacks. Two hits with a depth charge is not enough to sink a sub in this game. I've had subs take 4-5 hits and not be forced to the surface. I do think subs are a little too sturdy, but it is what it is. However, in this case, the sub comes up, but not critically damaged or nearly sinking. Once on the surface, the sub starts its diesel engines and finds itself with superior maneuverability vs. AKs, superior firepower (torps and 5.5 inch guns vs. 3 inch), and superior gunnery. The convoy ship commanders are probably all bottom-of the barrel if set up by the automatic system, or not specifically assigned by the Allied player. What is a highly skilled, aggressive sub commander to do?

The answer is probably not "run away." As always, there are a lot of specifics we don't know about the battle, but I think there's a lot of room for this to be a reasonable result.

Any other thoughts on this?



Those are my thoughts as well. Not necessarily realistic, but given what I know about the game engine (and especially the commanders point that you brought up), I don't think the result is entirely unreasonable.

If any kind of heavier escort had been present (say, a DD), with the changes in commander quality and sheer weight of armament that entails, the sub would've been sunk on the surface in pretty short order.

(in reply to dcpollay)
Post #: 41
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 10:25:53 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Your description comes close Colonel Mustard.

Anyways, that such events are the result of a slightly flawed routine is a nobrainer. About every vet who posted in this thread knows it, even those with a lack of humor.

The result is partly because of the way torp firing sequences are implemented in surface engagements (pretty similar to guns), and partly because of the extreme exp/skill/agg delta of civilian ship crews
and commanders to the sub crew/commanders.

In addition I strongly suspect this issue got more prominent with the introduction of the split torp tube system (during one of the early patches) that allowed a sub to fire a lot more individual salvoes
than what the game was initially designed for. A classic drawback of stuffing one hole in the system while opening one on the other end.


But TBH I kinda like such rampages, it keeps the players honest when setting up convoys, because they need to consider adding one or the
other surface combatant for such occasions. With a DE/PF or DD in a convoy that stuff does not happen.

Problem solved, and convoy setups get a bit more realistic.



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Post #: 42
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 10:28:02 PM   
Insano

 

Posts: 228
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From: Joplin, Missouri
Status: offline 		realistic or not - that was fun!

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 43
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 10:41:53 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I just had my Allied DDs within a Bombardment TF get two hits on a RO sub forcing it to the surface. Instead of dealing with the DDs, she was hit at least 6 times by 8" shells from CA Exeter. Of course she sank.

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RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/4/2013 11:03:58 PM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

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From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline 		I do change all of my US and Brit merchant captains. Both countries have lots of good captains available. I feel a captain with about 50 or so ratings will command better than one with 15 ratings.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 45
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/5/2013 4:38:21 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Of course it is out of whack. But who the hell here does not enjoy the ride?

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Post #: 46
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/5/2013 4:50:00 AM   
panzer cat

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 10/2/2011
From: occupied Virginia
Status: offline 		Yes it is exciting, but I've never had a sub escape.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 47
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/5/2013 6:21:50 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1673
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		that's a few doughty warriors onboard I-21. usually when a sub is forced to surface, she's toast - already too badly damaged to launch torps or fire shells effectively. sanch has given us snaps from his movie, would be interesting to learn I-21's day/night ratings, & her commander's stats.

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 48
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/5/2013 8:14:54 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I just had my Allied DDs within a Bombardment TF get two hits on a RO sub forcing it to the surface. Instead of dealing with the DDs, she was hit at least 6 times by 8" shells from CA Exeter. Of course she sank.



Long ago in an AAR far away....



quote:







This sub torpedoed the Repulse on her way to bombard batavia ..

Sub attack near Oosthaven at 46,97

Japanese Ships
SS I-165, hits 4

Allied Ships
BC Repulse, Torpedo hits 1
CL Dauntless
DD Inconstant
DD Isis

SS I-165 launches 4 torpedoes at BC Repulse (one torpedo hits amidships)
I-165 diving deep ....
DD Inconstant fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Inconstant fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Inconstant attacking submerged sub ....
DD Inconstant cannot establish contact with SS I-165
DD Inconstant fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Inconstant attacking submerged sub ....
SS I-165 eludes DD Inconstant by hugging bottom
SS I-165 forced to surface!
BC Repulse firing on surfaced sub ....
Sub slips beneath the waves



Was an epic battle. Several times it looked like the sub would escape, then finally forced to surface and
hit in the face by a salvoe from Repulse.

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Post #: 49
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/5/2013 10:46:08 PM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3890
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline 		I agree this stuff is borked, but rare enough not to be irritating.

I had a similar battle in my game with Cuttlefish where I-9 tangled with a convoy near Perth. She wreaked havoc once surfaced, but not as much as happened here. However, the plucky sub did live to tell the tale in that instance, which was awesome.

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Post #: 50
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/6/2013 6:07:22 AM   
sanch

 

Posts: 421
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
I AGREE! That skipper deserves the "Order of the Rising Sun"!!!!!


But it will be a posthumous award!

To answer a couple other points ...

It's a PBEM game - October, 1942; DBB C.

And no, it had never even occurred to me that I should replace xAK captains. Oh joy, another click-fest!

And the xAK that scored the sinking hit - its day experience went from 15 to 55. I'll keep this one around for a SCTF, or at least an invasion convoy.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 51
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/6/2013 8:39:00 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:


And no, it had never even occurred to me that I should replace xAK captains. Oh joy, another click-fest!



I would never ever waste time and PP to exchange skippers of civilian ships.

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Post #: 52
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/6/2013 9:07:12 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
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From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

And no, it had never even occurred to me that I should replace xAK captains. Oh joy, another click-fest!


Don't do it man... waste of PP's and good captains can't dodge torpedoes any better than bad captains can.

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You understand now, Why you came this way

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Post #: 53
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/7/2013 2:03:22 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Just had the opposit happen - RO-67 follows a convoy into shallow water (Apr 43) - not a good move

Submarine attack near Deboyne Islands at 102,135

Japanese Ships
SS RO-67, hits 27, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
xAK Henry J. Raymond
DE Austin
xAK William S. Young, Shell hits 1
xAK Walter Reed
xAK Owen Summers
xAK Matthew P. Deady

SS RO-67 is sighted by escort Gad Zuks time to Dive
RO-67 bottoming out .... (Oh bugger, things are going from bad to worse)
DE Austin fails to find sub, continues to search... maybe just maybe...
DE Austin attacking submerged sub ....Drat and double drat!
SS RO-67 forced to surface! man the guns!
DE Austin firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
DE Austin firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
DE Austin firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
DE Austin firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
DE Austin firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK William S. Young firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Walter Reed firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Owen Summers firing on surfaced sub ....
xAK Matthew P. Deady firing on surfaced sub ....
Sub slips beneath the waves Que the somber music!


I don't follow the animations in game but this was a bad day for RO-67 and a good day for my convoy!

B

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 54
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/7/2013 2:33:57 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:


And no, it had never even occurred to me that I should replace xAK captains. Oh joy, another click-fest!



I would never ever waste time and PP to exchange skippers of civilian ships.


Rarely would it cost any PPs to change them. I can usually find a free exchange. I feel the crew will
gain experience faster that way and maybe be able to spot the sub before it can fire.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 55
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/7/2013 12:09:51 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:


And no, it had never even occurred to me that I should replace xAK captains. Oh joy, another click-fest!



I would never ever waste time and PP to exchange skippers of civilian ships.


Rarely would it cost any PPs to change them. I can usually find a free exchange. I feel the crew will
gain experience faster that way and maybe be able to spot the sub before it can fire.


Might save some Victory Points...but..I frankly lack patience for that!


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Post #: 56
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/7/2013 2:29:29 PM   
guytipton41


Posts: 351
Joined: 2/26/2011
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:


And no, it had never even occurred to me that I should replace xAK captains. Oh joy, another click-fest!



I would never ever waste time and PP to exchange skippers of civilian ships.


Rarely would it cost any PPs to change them. I can usually find a free exchange. I feel the crew will
gain experience faster that way and maybe be able to spot the sub before it can fire.


Hi Cpt Sherwood,

What do you mean by a free exchange? I just fooled around with some merchant ship captains and I didn't notice any changes that were free.

Cheers,
Guy

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)
Post #: 57
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/7/2013 3:20:41 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		There is no 0 PP commander exchange. Check the top row when highlighting a new commander, it will always read at least '1'.

The cost/benefit calc simply does not hold for civilian ships. Before you start doing this rather check the escorts. Your chances of changing the outcome of engagements improve dastically when focusing there (DE, PF, YP, PC, PG, YMS, AM, SC, PB,....).

If an xAK gets Under attack it usually doesn't matter much if driven by a 20 or 50 nav skill skipper, it is toast with a high probability. And if you want to change enough to make a (tiny at best) difference, you spend so many PP that you could buy out a division instead.

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Post #: 58
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/7/2013 4:04:48 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		changing xAK/xAP skippers is both a waste of time and a waste of pp

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Post #: 59
RE: Another Routine Convoy versus Sub Battle - 3/10/2013 1:32:36 PM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		That was a monument to detailed posting!

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Post #: 60
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