RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed.

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 7:55:10 PM

HITMAN202

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Your're right Sillyflower. I was looking at other AARs to compare losses and get some insight to armanent expediture and in cpt flam-morvael, flame said his armanent points were out on turn 13. I didn't have losses to compare but the turn 11 OOB's ... HIT-PRO/cpt-mor were comparable... Axis 3.401/3.427 (armor about the same) ; Soviet 4.612/4.693. I'm not out of armanent points yet, but my dilemma feels less threatening with cpt flame's similar problem while having 26,000 fewer casualties. His opponent's casualties were about 70,000 fewer than yours (3-1 loss ratio.)

I'll cut back Toe on weaker infantry units this turn. Usually I wait until 15-16 turn to do so.

Thanks for your help. Your're still my enemy Englishman. Sean I'm not forgetting; your're persona non grata also.

gingerbread I agree with your beef with me about not putting out numbers. I struggled to get the same info from other AAR's. I'll include those in some organized format soon. Thank's for your're rebuke and remarkable clairvoyance.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 8:13:11 PM

HITMAN202

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smokingdave, get in the back seat with MT, gingerbread (I take back my apology), and whoever else wants to wrangle with me. I'm still waiting for some handicap from THEPRO'S. Come to my aid Flaviusx. The nerve of you to take advantage of me Siilyflower. How dare you ask to be paid when you accepted my challenge. Your're going to need your best courtroom cleverness to explain that one , counselor.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 8:23:27 PM

HITMAN202

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All right. Now for AGC. Remember I depleted it of armor. So don't expect a lot. Even worse they followed Flaviusx's axioms for best AGC play for the Soviets.

Remember I secured a nice pocket all the way to Minsk and got my infantry quicly marching to the Smolensk landbridge.

The start of the 5 th turn.

[image][/image]

THEPRO'S did little to defend the landbridge. But they strongly held the bend in the Dnepr and started to construct a formidable D-line just west of Vzayma.

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< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/23/2013 8:31:14 PM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 8:49:15 PM

HITMAN202

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The start of turn 8. I barely hit the D line west of Vzayma on turn 7 and THEPRO'S begun a deliberate, planned, slow withdrawl. Not really a withdrawl, but they concede hexes that would be impossible to strongly hold by throwing in a weak unit that I would be forced to displace.

[image][/image]

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:03:02 PM

HITMAN202

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The serious grind begins. I have no space to use the few AGC Pz's to make sweeping moves, but use them to herd retreating units to rout. That is the new technique I'm learning and you have to master it to have any chance of success.

Start of turn 10

[image][/image]

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< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/23/2013 9:04:50 PM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:15:59 PM

HITMAN202

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The last 2 turns I have been forcing 10-18 routs a turn and the pace continues . It's a bloody grind. I have experienced this in front of the Neva and in hexes close to Moscow, but not on turn 9, 11 hexes from the Kremlin.

The ARR is caught up. The start of turn 11 AGC.

[image][/image]

Outlined are the hexes they concede, but because of the possibility reserve activation they have to be strongly attacked. THEPRO'S don't even try to defend clear terrain.

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< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/23/2013 9:19:09 PM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:33:23 PM

HITMAN202

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Completion of AGC turn 11. Red hexes taken. Black held. AGC with 11 Pz (4 made their way back home via AGC/AGS linkup) and 46 infantry. Twenty-one infantry had 13-16 MP's !!! I've never had experienced this before. So far I've only done 1 HQBUP (AGN T5) and I see the benefits of limiting them. Sapper's belief that they are to be avoided is spot on IMO.

[image][/image]

Heavy casualties... Axis 8,000... Soviets 30,000 with 15 units routed (some noth of screen.)

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< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/23/2013 9:36:52 PM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:45:39 PM

HITMAN202

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[image][/image]

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:47:00 PM

HITMAN202

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[image][/image]

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:47:46 PM

HITMAN202

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[image][/image]

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 9:49:49 PM

HITMAN202

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[image][/image]

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 10:58:02 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

The nerve of you to take advantage of me Siilyflower. How dare you ask to be paid when you accepted my challenge. Your're going to need your best courtroom cleverness to explain that one , counselor.

Simples. You called us Pros and the definition of pro is someone who is paid for what he does. If you had not called us pro's, no remuneration would have been asked for. QED

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/23/2013 11:43:31 PM

gingerbread

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So you're not playing pro bono?

Hitman, how far from Smolensk is you AGC rail? By T11, it should be at or very near.

I assume that total losses were polished quite a bit by the T11 numbers. Very interesting game - I have not seen many with an Axis grinding strategy. Attrition should be and is a powerful auxiliary tool so get those southern minors in contact.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 12:18:43 AM

HITMAN202

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AGC's FBD ended it's turn in Smolensk turn 11. It moved without problems. Should be at it's max westward progress. Gingerbread, I'm puzzled what you are saying about the German allies and attrition ???

Silllyflower, I knew you would put a spin on what I said. And demanding payment again in front of so many !!! And I bet you wouldn't share it with Blephegor !!!! Where's the moderator ???? Where's my lawyer ???

[image][/image]

Still have the problem. I've been thinking about what to do since your advice, Pelton. I'm planning to start my pre-blizzard prep by railing all airbases and their HQ's north of the blizzard line to safety (except two HQ and 4 airbases full of fighter I'll keep spaced apart in AGC) starting turn 16 or so and at that time transfer 200 bombers and 100 fighters to mess with Odessa's port. I'll wait to see what then happens.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 12:20:02 AM

smokindave34

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Hitman - I am also playing the Pro's....one thing that I have been paying dearly for is not capturing enough Reds in '41. I see you have only slightly over 1 million Bolsheviks in POW camps back in the Fatherland. I know this is easier said than done but you need to capture and destroy some more Soviet counters or you are going to face hordes and hordes of units in '42. If you think the reserve activation is bad now wait until summer '42! Good luck my axis brother!

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 12:42:39 AM

gingerbread

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202
Gingerbread, I'm puzzled what you are saying about the German allies and attrition ???

The parts of the front painted blue are where the Soviets are not taking any attrition losses. My suggestion is that you use the minors for that job (unless you have spare Germans). Your guys will also take attrition, but it's still another straw to break their back. Keep in contact during mud to limit the Soviets' recovery.

Why do you want to fight the snow turns with out air support?

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 12:49:53 AM

HITMAN202

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How do you form pockets when Soviet units retreat on top of adajacent units ?? Forget hasty attacks (unless you have a loner retreated and you bet against reserve activation.) I think I'll have 2.5 -2.7 mill Soviet casualties by blizzard but will have lost 7-800,000 troops myself.

I think there will be a rule change soon to slow down the Soviet bear. Offer any advice you see fit, my man and namesake. I want to see MT smile.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 1:01:01 AM

Peltonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

How do you form pockets when Soviet units retreat on top of adajacent units ?? Forget hasty attacks (unless you have a loner retreated and you bet against reserve activation.) I think I'll have 2.5 -2.7 mill Soviet casualties by blizzard but will have lost 7-800,000 troops myself.

I think there will be a rule change soon to slow down the Soviet bear. Offer any advice you see fit, my man and namesake. I want to see MT smile.

Its very easy to keep loses under 2.75 million as SHC now vs anyone. A 5 + million blizzard O by SHC is normal now.

I would say your doing fine, the key will be surviving the blizzard with good over all moral. Which is impossible vs a good SHC blizzard player.

IF you can survive blizzard with high morale you can get some pockets, but mostly farm morale.

expect this game to look like this IF you can get through winter in good shape.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3146387&mpage=7

If you don't you will be toast in early 44.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 1:28:12 AM

HITMAN202

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I understand your point and agree, but there's a ton of cities to garrison. He's only got 10 units or so in that expanse and they are retreating.

You got only 4 turns of snow starting roughy 10 turns from now. Since you attack less effectively in snow and THEPRO's have 10 more turns to form their own version of a Maginot line I don't see a great winter offensive coming down the pike. I haven't fully decided my plans (I'm considering something very different to what I had intended), but I do know that blizzard prep is under appreciated and ends up being a Chineses fire drill for most.

I'll digress a little. I think Pelton's view of German victory (or draw as the game definitely favors the Soviets presently... again I think big changes are coming in future patches) is correct... Army management skill is more important than fighting prowness.

Handing blizzard effectively can save tens of thousands of troops; each a body that the Soviets have to walk over to get to Berlin. Look what you have to do, (and my list will be missing stuff)

1) Plan fall-back lines (ie forts in the south)

2) Cut Toe back (I'm also messing with Hq Toe.. (a little)

3) Evacuate non essential troops, Luftwaffe, SU's

4) Evacquate key quality troops.

5) Reorganize all Army Groups.. a bigger problem than people realize

6) And plan how to get them back by late February.

A winter offense isn't high on my priority list. am I wrong ???

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/24/2013 1:32:42 AM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 2:13:18 AM

smokindave34

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Be careful with withdrawing your quality troops. Keep the panzers close to the front in urban areas - that way they won't lose morale and take unnecessary losses but they will be close enough to the front to support some limited counterattacks in January/February. Parking some units in Germany/Poland is O.K. but keep a quick reaction force near key areas of the front to push back those pesky tank brigades.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 2:49:14 AM

HITMAN202

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I've played only one blizzard and ran, but didn't get pressured. Dave there is so much to do to avoid problems pre-blizzard , thinking about a winter O is short-sighted. You can only attack 3 turns in winter. The last you got to run !!!

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 5:48:41 AM

Michael T

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quote:

I think there will be a rule change soon to slow down the Soviet bear

Do you know something we don't? I hope your right though....

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 10:06:12 AM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

So you're not playing pro bono?

Sadly we are. Probably as well, as we would have had to let him win if he was paying.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 10:28:17 AM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Silllyflower, I knew you would put a spin on what I said. And demanding payment again in front of so many !!! And I bet you wouldn't share it with Blephegor !!!! Where's the moderator ???? Where's my lawyer ???

Seems to me I should start billing your various advisors too.
Anyway, I am driven by logic, as you know. I have to share equally with Sean as you call us both pro's. Now, if you rename the game Hitman v the Pro and the Canuck or somesuch, I would not have to share the proceeds which would halve the price.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 11:58:10 AM

Belphegor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Silllyflower, I knew you would put a spin on what I said. And demanding payment again in front of so many !!! And I bet you wouldn't share it with Blephegor !!!! Where's the moderator ???? Where's my lawyer ???

Seems to me I should start billing your various advisors too.
Anyway, I am driven by logic, as you know. I have to share equally with Sean as you call us both pro's. Now, if you rename the game Hitman v the Pro and the Canuck or somesuch, I would not have to share the proceeds which would halve the price.

That's right, keep looking to the north. Ignore the man behind the curtain.

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/24/2013 1:38:23 PM

gingerbread

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I understand your point and agree, but there's a ton of cities to garrison. He's only got 10 units or so in that expanse and they are retreating.

You got only 4 turns of snow starting roughy 10 turns from now. Since you attack less effectively in snow and THEPRO's have 10 more turns to form their own version of a Maginot line I don't see a great winter offensive coming down the pike. I haven't fully decided my plans (I'm considering something very different to what I had intended), but I do know that blizzard prep is under appreciated and ends up being a Chineses fire drill for most.

I'll digress a little. I think Pelton's view of German victory (or draw as the game definitely favors the Soviets presently... again I think big changes are coming in future patches) is correct... Army management skill is more important than fighting prowness.

Handing blizzard effectively can save tens of thousands of troops; each a body that the Soviets have to walk over to get to Berlin. Look what you have to do, (and my list will be missing stuff)

1) Plan fall-back lines (ie forts in the south)

2) Cut Toe back (I'm also messing with Hq Toe.. (a little)

3) Evacuate non essential troops, Luftwaffe, SU's

4) Evacquate key quality troops.

5) Reorganize all Army Groups.. a bigger problem than people realize

6) And plan how to get them back by late February.

A winter offense isn't high on my priority list. am I wrong ???

[Super short version] Yes.

[Short version] If you give (as in gratis) the Soviets 7 turns (4 mud, 3 snow) of pre-blizzard recovery time, it will not matter what your preparations. You will get owned.

[Normal, perhaps slightly verbose version] It's a bit like pool - if you only focus on shooting the balls into the pockets, you're missing out on the safety play dimension of the game. Got to make it hard for your opponent to score. You would hand over the initiative and they could choose to go aggressive or they could choose to pick the low hanging fruit only and at the same time build a monster army that you will not get anywhere against in '42. You must keep the pressure up, that means selective attacks during mud as well (though not using Pz). Units eliminated during the snow offensive will not come back for free!
/end answer to question - rail destruction is covered in AP class, but you have not applied as of yet.

The 15 routs is an excellent indicator of the current state. Routed units will rally, but they will not get replacements while routed, so they are out for at least an extra turn. The conversion to 41b rifle division is still ongoing so the individual unit strength will get lower as well.

One thing I noticed about that AGC post-combat T11 screen shot is that there were a lot of ?-units behind their line - are you skipping on brushing your teeth/doing recon?

Don't mess with the HQ's - you are & will be short ARM, not men and Support Squads use men.
Read up on Winter Mitigation and fill those spots before you drag stuff all the way back to Poland.
Odessa's size 15 Port will need 94% damage to become unusable ( < 1 effective point), a very wasteful use of air assets. 3-4 good ID should do the trick. What are your plans for the Crimea?

Lastly, to anti-paraphrase the Sergeant in HSB: Remember to have fun!

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/25/2013 7:13:18 PM

HITMAN202

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Your insights are great. That last advice is what it is all about !!

The recon. Belphegor (who handles THEPROS air stuff) has set something up that is killing me. When ever I fly missions with fighter support I face no fighter interdiction. But anything unescorted gets hit hard. How does he do it?? I've stop refueling mech units if I can't get fighter support. I try to stack 3 airbases a hex with at least one airbase with fighter units. I select that hex prior to hitting the air supply button to arrange for fighter support. Then I select the air units for that mission. It helps as long fighter support is available.

That's the issue with recon. Because I send no fighter support with recon (need it for ground support and resupply missions) he is killing me. So far this game he has shot down almost 400 recon planes. I'll show it when I finish the turn tonight. So I've backed off recon some.

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/25/2013 7:15:34 PM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/29/2013 6:21:55 PM

HITMAN202

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TURN 12 is finished with frustration in AGC.. but first the recon issue

[image][/image]

As I mentioned Blephegor is able to interdict all Axis missions without fighter escort, including recon. He has hit it hard. But to me recon planes are such an abundance... but I am not going to needlessly waste them

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< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 3/29/2013 6:33:55 PM >

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/29/2013 6:42:10 PM

HITMAN202

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AGN....I do believe without the Volkov this front would break in 2-3 turns. I caused 20,000 or so casualties in AGN. A big contribution to the casualties (routs) were that retreated units south of the Neva where forced into a smaller retreat zone formed by the Volkov. I cleared the hexes in front of the Neva to start the direct attack on Leningrad.

[image][/image]

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RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sil... - 3/29/2013 6:49:44 PM

HITMAN202

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AGS is going to get interesting. THEPROS have only so much space to surrender in front of Stalino and in the open terrain my Pz reign supreme. They will stand and fight. I also got to the Crimea.

[image][/image]

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