HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (Full Version)

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HITMAN202 -> HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:00:59 AM)

I finished two server games the last month, so I wanted another challenge. Sillyflower (yes, THE Sillyflower) had a challenge out, so I inquired and was surprisingly accepted; with a compatriot of the Brit included. Blephegor would complete the tag team. I wanted a server game, but their gamestyle wouldn't allow it (apparently they divide responsibilities and group-think moves.. it also helps the wear and tear of the longhaul) so a PBEM against THEPRO'S begun !!!

Now I'm a realist. I'm learning a lot about WITE and have played more than a handful of games (all but one discouragingly ending before the 20th move for a variety of reasons ... all by my opponenets (except one) but to face such a formidable twosome, well you just got to expect the worse. Yet I know I would get a game that would not be abandoned. So the conflict ....

... is at the Soviet's 11th move. And it's been an eye-opener. I've been puzzled by some of the recent games where the Germans have been stopped in their tracks in front of Moscow and even Leningrad. Yes Leningrad !!! Also I'm been puzzled by the hoards of units the better Soviets throw infront of the Axis invaders in the first 4-5 turns. I hadn't seen that personally.

So the game started near the end of January. (We agreed to a slow pace.)

My opening consisted of 1) AGN ... no Riga Gambit (in some test runs I discovers it fails around 30% of the time) with good lanes for the infantry and hexes converted north of the Daugava, 2) AGC ... a solid pocket extending to Minsk with a second one around Brest, and AGS with the classic Lvov pocket with 7 units in Rovno included. MT is correct to state that the key on turn one is herding units into isolation and the best measure of it is to limit the total number of Soviet disruptions outside of pockets to twenty; and I achieved it.

A quick summary of the first ten turns.

AGN pretty much paints the reality of playing against the elite Soviet players. In learning WITE I played the Leningrad scenario a lot. I mean a lot. And since Leningrad is the objective I learned to put on the afterburners... in fact I feel I have it down to a fine art ... to go straight to St. Petersburg on a straight line.



Start of turn 4.. Pskov taken. First time of done it. And against THEPRO'S !!! I had great lanes for my infantry and (can't download more than one image a post ???)






HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:05:56 AM)

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/9FD6659462754FAAB0250E13D3E7A529.jpg[/image]

(I'll learn to put more than one image on a post)

That's pretty good progress !!!



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:13:23 AM)



Start of TURN 5

[image][/image]

I'm getting more excited !!! In my 6 previous games (all as Axis) I've never been this far advanced. I've got 14 infantry divisions at or noth of Pskov !!! No bull. I have the 6 AGN Pz divisions and the 4 in XXXIX Corp (AGC) leading the way.

[image]local://upfiles/40137/C9D12DBFA2B74F9190760112E042A851.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:20:43 AM)

[image][/image]

Dudes, I'm really getting excited. Look at my postion !! Great advance right up the gut with a HQBUP done on turn 5 hitting them hard. I'm getting a little cocky. I almost sent a little taunting E-mail to Sillyflower telling him that he (and Sean) were facing some real heat. But I looked north...

[image]local://upfiles/40137/026637E16E3E4E969DCED5DE56F7B97E.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:45:44 AM)


And it didn't go real well. I only breeched three hexes across the Luga and found my forces huddled in an inoperable chaos. The advantage of a such a massed attack (I'll coin it the "Fist Method") is that as it over-runs the D infront of it, the attack fans out laterally and threatens to overwhelm the center by envelopment as more and more defenders rush to the center to stop the "Fist." But if the attack doesn't overwhelm the center (or at least put a huge strain on it) you get a not-too-small logjam. I produced a good one.

Now in self-defence I did have a crappy MP turn. It really sucked. But the MP cost is heavy is the marsh (which 1/3 of the terrain is there) and that compounded the problem. In theory what I did sounded good (and has worked), but against the elite Soviets.... forget it. Also the terrain pretty much prevents any "fanning" out to the East (a little problem there called Novograd.. which is still Soviet controlled turn 11.. the story will get worse.

[image]local://upfiles/40137/43FBEB33A0DE4FA6BEB76561729D687C.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:59:57 AM)

I got my pictures out of order, but at the start of my 6th turn I looked north at Leningrad and saw

[image][/image]

Count them !!! Over seventy Soviet units (not air counters or empty HQ's). I've never experienced this before. I saw it in some recent "elite" matchups, but goodness gracious. How could so many units be funneled to just one area. ???? I'm glad I withheld a snide comment to Sillyflower.

So the Leningrad slog thru level 2 fort after level 2 fort began. And by the way, it got to be level 3 forts on turn 10 !!!

[image]local://upfiles/40137/7B9C90B350A244FAAA704AB59AF85D8E.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 1:24:13 AM)

[image][/image]
Start of the 9th. I obviously swung north up the west side of the fort network on turn 7 and begun the grind. There is some good happening. Every turn I take 5-7 hexes and rout 5-6 healthy units. I didn't mention it but in the first 3 turns I replaced the I and II and XXIII Infantry Corp with Model, Rendulic, and Weis and loaded theem with SU's up the derriere.

The objective good of what's happening in AGN 1) Leningrad is going to fall (I hope). The inclusion of XXXIX PZ Corp has added 1-2 extra captured hexes a turn and the likely fall of the city. Without it I don't think Leningrad will fall. Also 2) forcing the Soviets across the Volkov will shore up a front that the Finns will stabilize. 3) Attrition is hitting the Soviets. I'm causing more and more casualties with each attack every turn, so all is not lost.

[image]local://upfiles/40137/E2AEBD0A5AA142049623B68336E1C2B3.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 1:53:37 AM)



AGN START 11 TURN

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/8287177757324346BA1EA57DECB72F20.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 2:31:55 AM)

[image][/image]

Starred hexes captured.. seven . Soviets gave up one hex. The front was breeched to two empty hexes. So a total of 10 hexes captured in AGN. 15 or so hexes remain west of the Volkov.

8,000 Germans, 26,000 Soviet Casualties. 12 units routed. 23 infantry div and 10 Pz at the battle front. Nine units made two deliberate attacks each.

Last three turns there have been + 30 units routed. Without the Volkov I bet this front would breakdown in 3-4 more turns.

Planning to send PZ Corp XXXXIX back to AGC.

I'm seeing situations now in which Reserve activation hurts the Soviets when they have a weakened front (I think.) Let's say you have a 7 German div attack (100,000) versus a 3 weakened, low morale Soviet div in a hex (35,000). Odds that would be 3.5-1 or higher would still be greater than 2-1 with 1 unit activated (or even maybe 2). Though additional German casualties would occur, so would more Soviets with the chance that activated units would rout. Activation would increase Soviet casualties and increase routs. Am I wrong ??

[image]local://upfiles/40137/4A5D005E5AD44903A748A6895F2C4E86.jpg[/image]



Michael T -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 9:58:53 AM)

Hitman, the world wonders what's happening in the Centre and South???



smokindave34 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:26:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Hitman, the world wonders what's happening in the Centre and South???


Yes - with the extra armor supporting the drive on Leningrad what have you had to give up in the center/south?



carlkay58 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 12:59:21 PM)

But if Leningrad falls the Soviets automatically surrender - right?

[:D]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 1:56:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

with a compatriot of the Brit included. Blephegor would complete the tag team.

I don't know which is worse - calling me 'Brit' instead of English (preferably)or British, or calling Sean one as he is Canadian.

Never mind. Geography is seldom a strongpoint for Yanks.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 2:24:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I wanted a server game, but their gamestyle wouldn't allow it (apparently they divide responsibilities and group-think moves..


The server doesn't allow multiplayer (see support thread) so we have to use PBEM. I take north and middle and Sean South + airforce. This does mean keeping more in the South than most as I can't take all the fake cardboard. Still, as only 1 opponent has got to March 42 so far that's not caused a problem. We do adjust later to ensure fairer shares.

Not much of a game if we don't let Hitperson take something.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 2:30:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202


Now I'm a realist. I'm learning a lot about WITE


Though I hate to admit it to his face, Hitperson is one of the most thoughtful players I have met during my 40 years of wargaming. All I have to do now is to convert him to having a PC name and to change that avatar. I have suggested more appropriate alternatives on another thread:

www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3282360

The only real weakness in his play is that, like all members of his profession (and I have worked with many over the last 25+ years), he is at heart too nice a man to be able to master trash talk.




HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 3:16:51 PM)

carlkay 58 (now I can relate to a guy that likes numbers :) :) ) .... since I'm playing THEPRO'S ( my coined appellation for the tag team is more respectful than derogatory ... that's until I start losing badly), I had expected some handicap and since they granted none will ask for a 5 point permanent reduction in Soviet morale for the rest of the game when the Vienna of the North falls. Look, Flaviusx has been beating up on MT for recently whipping up on two of the better WITE players (Bobo in the process and M60 in postmortum ... Pelton I didn't list you here, but in '41 he did take you behind the woodshed) without giving some handicap, so I expect him to similarly berate Sillyflower. An aside ... don't misinterpret my comments toward Sillyflower ... I've been both impresssed and delighted by the banter we've exchanged in our e-mails, so I want to fan the fire, so to speak.)

Seriously if the Axis fail to taKe Leningrad in "41 they'll probably be forced to retreat back to Riga during the blizzard (the Volkov does freeze) and have a thin front stretched further without the help of the 20 or so Finnish divisions.

smokingdave 34... (another number guy !!!) a lot and even more when you see what I sent south to AGS. But IMO AGC isn't fertile ground for their use with there being little space for them to run in.

MT... I don't have a Photo Shop to steal from my wife and it's so slow (and painful) to use Paint (I promise I'll improve the quality of this AAR in the future with some software) so your're just going to have to be patient. I want to show how my play has had to completely change (and smokingdave I will play differently in the future) and I have 9 turns to catch up on.

Now Sillyflower, you chided me for calling you English and clearly identified your heritage as "British." What should I call you ??? And me a Yank ??? They kicked ass way back in 1776-80. Some people never forget a Yorktown. And geography ??? Considering that Britian once was an empire, geography should never be taught in London. It would hurt the youth to see what has been lost.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 3:26:36 PM)

And trash talk ??? With a wife of 33 years, 5 daughters (one son) and 15 or so female employees, trash talk would not be a good skill to have in my present circumstances, Sillyflower. I got enough estrogen driven emotions to encounter daily. You will find that I'm a quick learner (even if I don't have a good teacher.)



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 3:40:12 PM)


So much small talk. I don't want to get a warning from this site's moderator to cut it, so to the real issue at hand...

AGS first. I wanted to show smokingdave how much I depleted ADC of Pz's.


Rember these screen shots are at the start of each turn.

[image][/image]

.THEPRO'S ran, ran, ran, and ran. Remember I made a good Lvov pocket and Rovno addition (almost didn't work) and the Soviets hung a little to close on move three. MT didn't like what they did. Three hexes further back would have been better

[image]local://upfiles/40137/2511477251CD4EB7922DAC0FBE7CB2D0.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 3:44:11 PM)

They fell back

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/C005F1AE038E47C0B8B0444499A597FA.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 3:50:32 PM)

OOPs duplicated it

[image][/image]

Where are all these units coming from ??? Remeber my shot of AGN ???

[image]local://upfiles/40137/7FF3C3236FBE4052AFBA0A9DC677BB07.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 3:55:47 PM)

I took the Dnepr (it was given to me.) Run, run, run

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/D170817AF9E447A3ABF97B466F4F68AD.jpg[/image]



gingerbread -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 4:06:49 PM)

Quit teasing with all these pictures of pretty counters, where are the numbers? OOB & losses, including #units lost.

GE ARM pool could also be of interest.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 4:14:38 PM)

I did get a little pocket..

smokingdave, about AGC... well .... I took 5 divisions and 1 reg south. Well here's why 1) I made a Brest Litovsk Pocket with two, caught 6 routed units, and sent them south to... well they did nothing. Should have sent them north. 2) Of course 2 div and 1 reg helped to make the big Lvov pocket, and 3) I need a div to secure the mini Rovno pocket, which was a near failure.

I know dave (do you know that HITMAN and SILLYLOWER have similar forenames), that's 9 divisions and 1 reg. Two of the group that were sent south was a mistake. And I did have an oppotuity later in AGC. All hindsight.

Pz's in AGC sit on their hands until turn 7 or so. There's not a lot to do with them as the supply is so poor. But with the ability to gas up Mech units now, it was a mistake. But just 2 divisions. I needed to secure the Rovno pocket (IMO a big deal) and the 4 that went to AGN were needed. Would I play different now ??? Yea, a lot different. My next opponent will discover !!!

[image]local://upfiles/40137/1DE94B6AA4B249EC93A9C48A7B9636D8.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 4:28:56 PM)

Gingerbread, get in the back seat with MT. It'll come. Armanent Points have never a problem with me. I put all TOE's at 55 at the start (except Inf,Pz,Infantry) . But I do have a problem now (how did you suspect it ???) They're at 1000 ??? What am I doing wrong ??? I"ve never faced this before. ??!! I'm glad you asked.

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/5254E803A8C24353A54C56E664073EBF.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 4:42:49 PM)


Start of move 10... THEPRO's decided to make a stand at D and Z town on the Dnepr.

[image][/image]


About Gingerbread's comments about "pictures and pretty counters." He's right, but one of the big attractions to WITE is that it is very esthetic. The colors of the board and it's layout, the pieces and their colors and shades, and the 2-D panorama it creates. It's very pleasing.


[image]local://upfiles/40137/06CD36D4B1424A5C9BD36133F046EC6D.jpg[/image]

How to I take that red=star hex. Crucial for the pocket.



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 4:58:54 PM)

Now we are up tp date. (Sillyflower, in fact just sent me the Sov 11th turn.. took a glance at it.. unusual.. it looks like he's softening up the front in AGN or AGC, or is it that the attrition is softening up the two fronts. The defense CV's are way down.. later)

Start turn 11 ... THEPRO'S should have vacated the Dnepr. Nice pocket. Took the key hex just south of Z-town the hard way; from the east.

[image][/image]



[image]local://upfiles/40137/38A57DBF760244CCA10AC75CB45EB07A.jpg[/image]



HITMAN202 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 5:03:23 PM)

Completed 11th turn. Chasing, chasing , chasing...

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/40137/AFD6F00E58684927B2FF9AD095010227.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 5:17:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202



Now Sillyflower, you chided me for calling you English and clearly identified your heritage as "British." What should I call you ??? And me a Yank ??? They kicked ass way back in 1776-80. Some people never forget a Yorktown. And geography ??? Considering that Britian once was an empire, geography should never be taught in London. It would hurt the youth to see what has been lost.


I'm sure I have never chided anyone for calling me English. As for geography, I went to a school that didn't teach it as it was not a proper academic subject, but even I know you Yanks are still colonials really, even if you are now self-governing. 1776 was no different from letting a child leave home. Why else does our Royal Family make y'all go weak at the knees? You even tolerate Fergie for Heaven's sake.

Smokindave is our long-term opponent I mentioned. Up to Aug '43 now.

Don't blame your lack of trash talk on oestrogen. Rosanne Barr can give you lessons even if it is one of those 'don't try it at home' things. Or 'home and work' I should say.



sillyflower -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 5:23:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Armanent Points have never a problem with me. I put all TOE's at 55 at the start (except Inf,Pz,Infantry) . But I do have a problem now (how did you suspect it ???) They're at 1000 ??? What am I doing wrong ??? I"ve never faced this before. ??!!




Assuming you set TOEs right it's due to v high losses in your mobile units, plus AGN and AGC grinding.



smokindave34 -> RE: HITMAN202 versus THEPRO's Sean is welcomed ... Sillyflower is allowed. (3/23/2013 7:48:52 PM)

Still looking for screenshots of the center.....maybe there is some secret axis plan the Hitman is holding back on sharing?



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