RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 12:35:21 AM

Bearcat2

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I do not think so; but it may be possible. It depends on the firing mechanism and which type of HE rd. The possibility of dropping a grenade into a loaded gun is remote to begin with. It only takes a sec to load, so they are unloaded until they get a target so that the proper ammo is loaded.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 1:40:39 AM

budman999

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Speaking as an artillery man - generally artillery shell fuzes are armed after two things happen: a certain amount of force is generated on the fuze as well as a certain segment of time has to pass.
I would think that a tank gun shell would follow similar safety principles.
As well the gun barrel of any modern cannon is more than capable of handling a typical grenade explosion.

< Message edited by Budman -- 4/5/2013 1:41:57 AM >

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 1:48:23 AM

Jonathan Pollard

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According to the Cavalry Field Manual (1941-42), "Grenades, available to all elements of Cavalry, are effective weapons for use against mechanized and armored vehicles." [p.148]

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/docrepository/FM2_15.pdf

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 2:08:16 AM

wdolson

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I recall in Band of Brothers at Normandy a team from the 101st were tasked with taking out some artillery pieces behind the beachhead. When they got to the guns they dropped grenades down the barrel to disable them. From what I've read the depiction in the mini-series was very close to the way it actually happened.

I think one of the guns was back in operation the next day, but the rest were permanently knocked out by the grenades.

The fragments from the grenade would bury themselves in the walls of the barrel. At minimum the barrel would need a thorough cleaning before being used again. I would think the blast could also weaken the barrel depending on where it is in the barrel. At the bottom of the tube would be in the strongest point which is designed to take a blast, but in the middle of the barrel it could weaken the walls of the barrel.

Bill

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 2:17:37 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I recall in Band of Brothers at Normandy a team from the 101st were tasked with taking out some artillery pieces behind the beachhead. When they got to the guns they dropped grenades down the barrel to disable them. From what I've read the depiction in the mini-series was very close to the way it actually happened.

I think one of the guns was back in operation the next day, but the rest were permanently knocked out by the grenades.

The fragments from the grenade would bury themselves in the walls of the barrel. At minimum the barrel would need a thorough cleaning before being used again. I would think the blast could also weaken the barrel depending on where it is in the barrel. At the bottom of the tube would be in the strongest point which is designed to take a blast, but in the middle of the barrel it could weaken the walls of the barrel.

Bill

They used thermite grenades. And, while it apparently was not remembered for certain, the belief is that they used them to fuse the (sorry I don't know the proper names) traversing and elevating mechanisms used to aim the guns.

I have personally wondered if the thermite grenades might have been used to destroy the interrupted screw (is that the right term?) that seals up the breach.

EDIT: Come to think of it I was recalling the story of the Rangers who had to go and find the guns they expected to find in bunkers overlooking the shoreline.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 4/5/2013 2:41:50 AM >

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 2:48:43 AM

Blackhorse

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A few comments on the observations above:

1. Most modern tanks carry few true HE rounds. The most common anti-tank rounds are inert, except for the propellant. Most tanks also carry HEAT, which is designed to detonate after a distance, on impact, with the blast going directionally forward. So even if a grenade triggered a sympathic detonation, most of the blast effect would head down the barrel.

2. Depending on doctrine, tanks have been known to travel with a round in the tube. On exercises in West Germany in the mid-80s, practicing against a Warsaw Pact invasion of the Fulda Gap, US tanks might 'battle carry' sabot. The theory was, enemy tanks (or helicopters) were the main threat, and a round in the tube might enable you to engage first. If a lesser threat appeared first, we could fire off the sabot anyway, then load the most appropriate ammunition.

3. A thermite grenade down the tube would definitely hurt a tank. If it settled at the base of the tube, it would eventually fuse the barrel and breechblock. More effective than a fragmentation grenade, I think. But it would take some time.

4. Grenades were considered effective against tanks in WWII -- US infantry doctrine was to get a bundle or a bag of grenades and try to throw them against the side of an enemy tank to break the track, or blow off a roadwheel. Not for the faint of heart.

5. witpqs: interruptor screw, methinks.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 2:06:29 PM

veji1

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Assuming this video is legit one would also have to account for poor maintenance of syrian equipment, insufficiently trained crews, etc. opens up the possibilities of damage.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 2:55:20 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

2. Depending on doctrine, tanks have been known to travel with a round in the tube. On exercises in West Germany in the mid-80s, practicing against a Warsaw Pact invasion of the Fulda Gap, US tanks might 'battle carry' sabot. The theory was, enemy tanks (or helicopters) were the main threat, and a round in the tube might enable you to engage first. If a lesser threat appeared first, we could fire off the sabot anyway, then load the most appropriate ammunition.

tanks would engage helicopters with their main gun?

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 3:29:45 PM

Tophat1815

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

2. Depending on doctrine, tanks have been known to travel with a round in the tube. On exercises in West Germany in the mid-80s, practicing against a Warsaw Pact invasion of the Fulda Gap, US tanks might 'battle carry' sabot. The theory was, enemy tanks (or helicopters) were the main threat, and a round in the tube might enable you to engage first. If a lesser threat appeared first, we could fire off the sabot anyway, then load the most appropriate ammunition.

tanks would engage helicopters with their main gun?

Yes that is correct. Low flying helo's trying to use ground cover,trees,terrain elevations any obstacle to stay out of line of sight,stay under effective shoulder fired anti-air missiles and combat air patrols/sweeps ability to engage find themselves in the engagement bubble of a tanks main gun. That is one reason for a tank to sashay about with a HEAT round up the spout.

Example: Armor column moving up to "the line" is interdicted by helo that pops up from tree cover to launch ATGMS,if the helo is within 35 to 50 degrees of elevation tank engages with main gun.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 3:57:22 PM

morganbj

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This is, of course, the correct answer.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 5:24:36 PM

Gunnulf

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Its a T72. They have an autoloader which would almost certainly have a HEAT round loaded (not much call for APFSDS in that conflict..). My read (albeit as an infantryman with some Arm Inf experience) that the sequence of events is the guy puts a grenade down the spout but its relatively contained the first time, perhaps some structural damage. You then hear the crew capping off with their co-ax MG at the unseen threat. Once they stop the little David has another go. Either this time the breach is weakened, or I suspect more likely the crew are going though stoppage drills trying to work out whats wrong. Either way the explosion obviously sets off a secondary internal explosion turning into into a roman candle. Fatally bad drills on the part of the tank crew operating without infantry support & buttoned up with limited vision no doubt due to sniper threat.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 7:52:25 PM

Sardaukar

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The amount of "Allahu Akhbar" on that vid is impressive.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/5/2013 8:11:08 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

The amount of "Allahu Akhbar" on that vid is impressive.

Lots of "candybar" warnings on these sorts of vids.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 12:11:52 AM

Bearcat2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

2. Depending on doctrine, tanks have been known to travel with a round in the tube. On exercises in West Germany in the mid-80s, practicing against a Warsaw Pact invasion of the Fulda Gap, US tanks might 'battle carry' sabot. The theory was, enemy tanks (or helicopters) were the main threat, and a round in the tube might enable you to engage first. If a lesser threat appeared first, we could fire off the sabot anyway, then load the most appropriate ammunition.

tanks would engage helicopters with their main gun?

The last station in our tank qualification runs was a shot at a "helicopter" [actually a piece of wood that looked like a basketball backboard on a pole that was raised]
The preferred rd was a HEAT rd at that time. I was able to put a hole in it at about 2,000 meters while the tank was moving.[I got lucky]

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 5:29:26 AM

btbw

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Video is fake. Tank crew dont move anything outside tank. Dont move turret, dont move barrel, dont use AA MG. During work of autoloader barrel must move to certain angle, after that BC give inclination on computed angle. Ammo in T72 dont detonate in that matters like on video if source is outsided of tank.
My opinion - old or disabled tank was charged with HE inside and detonate it remotely.
Here real video of implosion T72 from real hit. All parts of tank moved with explosive stress, alot of smoke and cyclic detonations of different ammo parts.
http://youtu.be/x2TLS1sqMl8

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 3:24:55 PM

witpqs

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Big difference!

Although I must admit I kind of like the way they are training their people in the faked up video - to go stand in front of the tank!

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 6:33:40 PM

Chickenboy

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Not so. I've seen video of a dozen or more T-72s going 'roman candle' from a penetrating round into the turret. Some of them blow the turret completely, but an enflagration like that seen in the video is more common. The lack of response from the crew could be due to their incapacitation. The difference in flame volume could be due to a difference in ammunition stored in the turret between the two example tanks.

I doubt very much the video is fake.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 4/6/2013 6:35:57 PM >

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 7:08:54 PM

Symon

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It will sound sort of odd, but artillery propellant is slow-burning, a deflagration model. Pressure in the tube follows the square law of time-distance-expansion.

Grenades, and C4, and mines, and arty bursting charges, use prompt propellants, a detonation model. Local pressure is prompt and does not depend on time. A lot of bad things will indeed fracture a gun tube. If the charge is big enough it will burst the tube confinement. Smaller charges can maybe introduce kinks. Yeah, just try shooting a round out of a kinked tube.

Just a bit of reality for the discussion. Been there, done that, professionally.

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 8:02:35 PM

Bearcat2

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On another site, a Syrian who also knows English, translated what they were saying on the video:
�Starting from 0:05 a man behind says "do it" then the man throws the grenade and we hear 2 other men behind saying "No" followed by "it fell outside" but another man says "it's in it"
�Then after the tank fired/grenade exploded (i don't really know) ,a man behind says "Shoot the rocket,shoot the RPG" , another man behind says again "it fell outside"
�The man who threw the grenade comes near and a man says "take it,wait remove it,remove the black thing and throw it away."
�After the tank was destroyed they are just shouting "allahu akbar" with one behind saying " they've been burnt"
�Then a man close out the video "Hamza the lion of god division and the division of the martyr Abdullah Bakar,destroying the tank -72- (i think he means the T-72) to support the Hyena division".

Here is a another video where the rebels drop a nade down the hatch, it starts with 2 fighters on the tank, one drops a nade down the hatch, 2 crewmen come out of the tank, a muffled explosion[hard to hear]
and then there is a little smoke that comes out of the hatch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJs2Fhb6mxY&feature=youtu.be&t=45s

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 4/6/2013 8:19:11 PM >

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RE: OT - Guy throws a grenade down the barrel of a tank - 4/6/2013 10:34:51 PM

Chickenboy

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Here's one of a pair of T-72s working an urban area. About 7 minutes in, the lead suffers a catastrophic hit, blowing the turret off of the vehicle:

http://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/antitank-weapons/death-of-an-saa-t-72-tank/2255200979001/

I assume that the RPG / ATG used in this case incited detonation of stored ammunition in the turret.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 4/6/2013 10:35:20 PM >

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