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Oh oh...here it comes... - 1/4/2003 8:04:02 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		Mon ami Goblin, vous avez été insultés! :eek: lol

or

Mein Freund Goblin, wurden Sie beleidigt! :p

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Post #: 31
- 1/4/2003 8:08:19 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		Orzel: Why do I get the feeling that you're sitting back with a bucket of popcorn? :D

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Jim NSB

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Post #: 32
Who me??? - 1/4/2003 8:18:47 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		:D

I'm just letting Goblin know that he's been challenged...that's all.

Now where is that melted butter and salt? :p

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Post #: 33
Pop Corn? - 1/4/2003 10:50:59 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Beurre? Sel? On n'emploie pas ces derniers en mangeant du fromage

Sie essen an der großwienner Hütte

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 34
Eating Cheese??? - 1/4/2003 12:16:10 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		Qui a indiqué quelque chose au sujet de manger du fromage?

Assez de crapola, de défi Goblin à un duel et écrivez en anglais! :p


ps.... aus mit Ihnen rascal! :D

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Post #: 35
Pig Latin - 1/4/2003 9:55:41 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Ihay, I'dway ovelay otay ayplay Oblingay HAY2HAY. Ehay earsway
ishay underwearway onway ishay eadhay andway ashay oatgay
oofshay insteadway ofway eetfay.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 36
- 1/4/2003 10:44:10 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B] The country characteristics do not appear to do much. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'd have to say I disagree G. As many have mentioned, there's some intangible buried in the code that gives this setting some weight. And no, I can't prove it :D

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Post #: 37
- 1/4/2003 11:16:20 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I didn't say that they do nothing, I said that they [I]appear[/I] to do nothing. The Germans still get swarmed under...

Goblin

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Post #: 38
- 1/5/2003 2:44:25 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		This is unintentionally deteriorating into a pissing contest (maxima mea culpa!); let's get it back on track and into the spirit of this productive discussion board.

Here's a couple of reasons why I feel the higher experience rating, and [I]possibly[/I] the country characteristics, of the German forces justifies their cost.

-GE's resistance to suppression and ability to rally (compared to the SO) gives each unit a higher chance of being available and combat effective. I believe this is worth extra points on the price tag. If you wipe out a lone SO crewman every unit within 2-3 hexes sustains suppression, and we all know how the change from 0 to 1 suppression affects a unit's performance.

-GE troops higher chance to op-fire, even if they're retreating/routed. Has anyone ever passed up an 'iffy' shot on a fleeing Tiger because they all but expected it fire back...and at a higher hit %? When you see a crew abandon an [I]undamaged[/I] tank, how often are they wearing black uniforms?...I know we all have the same page in our personal tactics book: 'how to defeat a KV in 1941'. :D

I'm saying this without any rancor or sarcasm: tell me some specifics! I'll look for them in ongoing games or test them out; if I see them I'll thunk my forehead and say "$hit, how'd I miss that!". Since I first saw this mentioned in another thread I've been [I]trying[/I] to see it. Yes, I feel some Allied units a underpriced ...many in fact, but I still don't see the need for wholesale revision. If you feel its not worth your effort I'll accept that too.

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Post #: 39
- 1/5/2003 6:01:07 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		tracer,

No one is arguing that the higher experience German units shouldn't cost more! True Troop ON, however, adjusts for the experience, morale, etc of a given unit, raising or lowering the prices with the stats.

The problem right now is that the German stuff is so much more expensive, at the listed encyclopedia cost. Compare the encyclopedia prices. These are for units of the exact same experience value. These prices are what the comp adjusts [I]from[/I] .

Now the Soviet, American, etc equipment costs alot less [I]before[/I] adjustment by True Troop. After adjustment, the pricing imbalance is huge (especially if the T34 or M4 are considered, they get a discount on these tanks). In '44, ten T34/85's cost just 690! Ten PIVj's cost 1040, and the experience difference means squat. Multiply that out over a 5000 point game, and you will see what I mean.

The Soviet player can buy an infantry company to suppliment his tanks for the same price.

We are pointing out that the German player appears to be penalized TWICE for units. Once by base pricing, because they are more experienced units (the base pricing is for the same experience regardless of nationality though), and once by True Troop.

In contrast, the Allies have lower pricing at the base level, get a massive discount by True Troop (Leo even admitted that it was large), and then get a price break for their most common tanks. Their experience differs by only 5 in 1944, so there is no difference in performance.

I believe someone thought that US and Soviet units were not as good as German units experience wise, and set their prices lower, forgetting that True Troop already does this. Then, when Leo adjusted all national stats, it made it worse (because of the experience differences for each country), especially combined with the pricing breaks.

Hope I explained it better than we have so far.:)

Goblin

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Post #: 40
- 1/5/2003 9:24:46 AM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]
The problem right now is that the German stuff is so much more expensive, at the listed encyclopedia cost. Compare the encyclopedia prices. These are for units of the exact same experience value. These prices are what the comp adjusts [I]from[/I] .

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

So your beef is that the game is unfair to the Germans?

I would guess that someone has a axe to grind against them.

The simple solution is just play anyone instead of the Germans, letting the newbees that don't know better take them.
thanks, John.

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Post #: 41
- 1/5/2003 9:28:01 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Thats not quite how I would describe it, or the solution I would use. I am starting to spot 10% (for starters) for the Germans I play against. I don't know if this is high or low or just right, but I aim to find out. The other way to do it is to set the stats the same for both nations, which brings the prices a little closer.

Goblin

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Post #: 42
- 1/5/2003 9:44:42 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		I see all your points but I've always just accepted that the better (in-game) performance of the German tanks warranted the higher prices. I do agree that the cost of some SO/US units need to be increased [I]somewhat[/I] from their new H2H values; maybe what didn't sit right with me was the arbitrary '10%' figure added to a German players points. During certain time periods this can be unfairly exploited, causing the opposite of its intended effect. Perhaps if some 'qualifiers' were added?

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Post #: 43
- 1/5/2003 9:49:15 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]
I believe someone thought that US and Soviet units were not as good as German units experience wise, and set their prices lower, forgetting that True Troop already does this. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, Panzer Leo [I]is[/I] German; can't blame him for rooting for the home team. :D :D

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Post #: 44
- 1/5/2003 9:59:23 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		Almost forgot:

A Goblin should drink plenty of water and take 600mg of ibuprofen three times a day :)

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Post #: 45
- 1/5/2003 10:21:49 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Water? Then a Goblin would be grumpy. Sissy.

Goblin:mad:


;)

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Post #: 46
- 1/5/2003 8:13:40 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]A Goblin has the flu [/B][/QUOTE]

WTF? :confused: I was referring to this! :D

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Post #: 47
- 1/5/2003 8:41:34 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I know that. A Goblin drinks manly coffee, and recommends it 4 out of 5. Water=sissy!

:D

Goblin- A Goblin dares dehydration:mad:

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Post #: 48
- 1/5/2003 8:52:25 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		Oh, I thought you meant [I]me[/I]! Cuz the only person who knocks me around is Mrs Tracer...constantly :D

Sorry for the confusion: I worked 50 hours last week and am having trouble getting out of pharmacist mode :rolleyes:

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Post #: 49
- 1/5/2003 9:17:39 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B]Cuz the only person who knocks me around is Mrs Tracer...constantly :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Sissy!

A Goblin is master of his cave! I rule the roost here!

If Orzel says otherwise, ignore him. I heard he drinks.;)

Goblin

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Post #: 50
Coming Soon.... - 1/5/2003 11:00:38 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		a candid interview with Mrs. Goblin! :cool:

Yes, be sure to keep an eye out for this special news piece....and learn the shocking truth behind the myth! :)

"Goblin: Legend in his own Mind" lol :D ;) :p

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Post #: 51
- 1/5/2003 11:09:34 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I'm guessing Wild Turkey. Maybe large volumes of homemade stuff.

Goblin:rolleyes:

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Post #: 52
Here's a peak at the story behind the scenes!!! - 1/5/2003 11:15:52 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		Transcript of conversation held 12/28/02

Orzel says:
yeah...was going to let you know that I just sent you the turn..
Goblin says:
****....
Goblin says:
I can’t stay long…my wife set the kitchen timer for twenty minutes and it’s already down to 7 minutes left. L
Orzel says:
lol
Orzel says:
you can always surrender...my boys are gracious captors
Goblin says:
I might have to.. the wife has a pile of dishes a mile high for me to wash before I have to go to bed.
Orzel says:
that bad eh? Well...it could be worse...
Goblin says:
Yeah, maybe I guess. Though next week I might be on the forum a bit less because we enrolled in dance lessons.
Orzel says:
Dance lessons? What the Hell? LMFAO!!!
Goblin says:
OK, I have to go now. The timer just went off!

Yes...shocking, isn't it?!?!?!? :eek:

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Post #: 53
- 1/5/2003 11:18:44 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Wow, that thunderstorm that was hovering over me just went West, against the wind, in a hurry!:eek:


Goblin

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Post #: 54
LOL... - 1/5/2003 11:22:10 PM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		really! :eek:

I'll be back in a minute...have to put those lightening rods up on my neigbors sheds again! :p Perfect decoys!!!

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Post #: 55
- 1/5/2003 11:40:50 PM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		[IMG]http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/upload/goblin1.jpg[/IMG]

:D :D :D

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Jim NSB

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Post #: 56
- 1/5/2003 11:52:15 PM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		Ouch. And tracer scores!

Goblin:mad: :eek:

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Post #: 57
Tracer has the puck at center ice... - 1/6/2003 12:01:05 AM   
Orzel Bialy


Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline 		he winds up...a slap shot....AND HE SCORES!!! :D

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Post #: 58
- 1/6/2003 12:22:19 AM   
tracer


Posts: 1865
Joined: 11/22/2000
From: New Smyrna Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		You must have noticed the hat trick of smileys

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Post #: 59
- 1/6/2003 3:06:58 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B]I see all your points but I've always just accepted that the better (in-game) performance of the German tanks warranted the higher prices. I do agree that the cost of some SO/US units need to be increased [I]somewhat[/I] from their new H2H values; maybe what didn't sit right with me was the arbitrary '10%' figure added to a German players points. During certain time periods this can be unfairly exploited, causing the opposite of its intended effect. Perhaps if some 'qualifiers' were added? [/B][/QUOTE]

I still contend that the best way to determine who the best player is is to have both sides have equal points and have that mean that the [I]equipment[/I] is balanced. That way the player who uses his equipment properly/better will win the game.

Why can't this be accomplished? Does anyone seriously disagree with Goblin's excellent explaination of the current problem with H2H?

By the way Goblin, thanks for carrying the torch for this stuggle. You understand the situation better than I do and I appreciate your efforts.

Now if Panzer Leo would only chime in here...

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Post #: 60
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