Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dangun

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours
Since the LUKI story has ended, and I only got one comment from DV, I have decided to jump to the last turn.

Pity. I was really enjoying this AAR.
Being a noob, I don't (didn't) really know enough to comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

I deeply dissapointed by scale of criticism of Mktours gameplay. It is not his fault, that authours of WitE massively failed in logistical aspect of the game. Developments demonstrated in his AAR are not historical at all, but this wargame is far from being historical.

Initiall rampage that Wehrmacht can wreck blurs the picture once again - game is biased in Soviet favour.


I am far from liking the fact such fantasy advace is possible - it massivly limits enjoyment that can be taken from initial turns of the game, but lets be clear it has nothing to do with Mktours. So why all this fuss?


It is like in my game vs MT, it is good play vs bad one.

Due to poor logistical model my stupidity during first turn forced me loose 1/3 of industry in order to avoid loosing game in '41.
In this case Marquo could and should have done better and to be honest game was far, far from being decided.


And like 2ndACR said - crazy logistics is nothing new and it is really easy way to come to wrong conclusions about reasons of current situation in the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Thank you, Kamil
I deeply appreciate what you have commented. It is great character that you voice the concern about the unjustified criticism. I believe good players like you, MT, Saper could have good judgment and insight in this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

I fully agree that the game was far from over; but saw no point in continuing to counterattack, displace HQs, and encircle his lead units all to absolutely no avail. And if the things I managed to do upset his his timetable, than I dread to imagine where he would have been if I had not done those things.

Marquo

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Thank you, Kamil
I deeply appreciate what you have commented. It is great character that you voice the concern about the unjustified criticism. I believe good players like you, MT, Saper could have good judgment and insight in this game.

Well, I don't think the criticism concerning the logistics of this game is unjustified. The logistics of this game are way over the top. Some of the things (like airsupply on such a massive scale) that can be done in this game, are perhaps not even possible today. Nobody has questioned your ability or your character. Numerous people (me included) have praised you for your optimization of the engine. Yet, we shake our head at your achievements, because they should not be possible. You mentioned you are a good chess player. And this really shows. But this game has a clearcut historical background. So what we think is, if the engine can't be corrected, then it would provide for a better game, if people restrain themselves from optimizing a broken system to the top. MT, who you mentioned above, despite his use of airsupply, plays with a good number of house rules preventing some of the very ahistorical things of this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours
there are several threads regarding my playing, not just this thread, you could go to have a look and you would see some of the comments are very assaulting, and I just didn't fight back. it didn't deserve my time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp



This kind of isolation is not the common experience. I have gone through lots of AARs, but this kind of isolation (and getting away with it) is a first. Not to mention the time you had your motorized division isolated at Vyzhny Volochek, with 5 hexes between it and the next German units, which were also isolated. I haven't seen a game with a German player getting his spearheads cut off so many times, and getting away with it. Yes, people normally take the risk of getting spearheads cut off if the reward is great. But they do try to guard their flanks. On the other hand, you don't seem to give a damn about getting units cut off.



For example in this screen you just send them into Stalino with no flank protection for like 200km. These screens also highlight the logistics issue very well. In that first screen your units are cut off. Even if they aren't, they would have to trace supply over hundreds of kilometres, over forests, rivers and swamps. So in effect they shouldn't get any. Yet, due to airsupply, you have a good number of units with more than 25 MPs. That leading motorized division even has 42(!).

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

SigUp
I believe I have said in the AAR that it is a huge set back that I got the entire group of panzers being cut off, and the reports of the next turn did show many units have very low MP, it is certainly huge set back to my plan, otherwise I would have the whole panzer group to do a massive assault the next turn. I certainly make many mistakes in this game, not just this one, and I didn't deny them, I am very new to this game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

The second screenshot I don't get at all. Shouldn't Marquo have been able to build a wall of units between the spearhead and the main force? The gap between them is huge and he has tons of units nearby.

Also, I would like to know if Marquo ever actually attacked the spearheads. I see a lot of green triangles for moral but I would assume that supplies (not fuel) are very low and fatigue is very high. In my experience these units are easy targets for counter attacks. The actual displayed CV values mean nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

The second screenshot I don't get at all. Shouldn't Marquo have been able to build a wall of units between the spearhead and the main force? The gap between them is huge and he has tons of units nearby.

Also, I would like to know if Marquo ever actually attacked the spearheads. I see a lot of green triangles for moral but I would assume that supplies (not fuel) are very low and fatigue is very high. In my experience these units are easy targets for counter attacks. The actual displayed CV values mean nothing.

I did not have enough units to create a wall anywhere without the risk of another envelopment. And yes those units were repeatedly cutoff, and yes, I did counterattack spearheads successfully, and there was even one turn where I attacked HQs stacked with units and managed to displace 3 in one turn, but none of it mattered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

SigUp
I believe I have said in the AAR that it is a huge set back that I got the entire group of panzers being cut off, and the reports of the next turn did show many units have very low MP, it is certainly huge set back to my plan, otherwise I would have the whole panzer group to do a massive assault the next turn. I certainly make many mistakes in this game, not just this one, and I didn't deny them, I am very new to this game.

You didn't call it a huge setback, but this is of little importance. Despite that you still don't care about any semblance of flank protection, so you really just invite the Soviet player to cut them off. Why? Because you know that with airsupply you can keep them in reasonable shape, so no need to worry. Anyway, it is not really a setback if you are in Vyzhny Vylochek on turn 5, keep chugging on despite being way ahead of your supply lines in terrible terrain. That you think like this convinces me that our discussion can be concluded at this stage. You treat this game as Chess in the East and not War in the East, which is your perfect right. Just don't expect others to be happy seeing the engine get abused. Good luck in your future endeavors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Yes, and my point is what would have happened otherwise; he would have cleared the map by winter

quote:

time consuming, especially I am not a native English speaker, which means I have to spend more time and energy in doing it. So I am not going to post the reports of those turns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dangun

quote:

time consuming, especially I am not a native English speaker, which means I have to spend more time and energy in doing it. So I am not going to post the reports of those turns.

Understood.

What I found most interesting in this AAR was how many of mktours' units seemed to be 'taking a rest'.

A lot of units seem to be kept more than 2 hexes back from the front line for the purpose of having them accumulate MP (refuel). This is interesting because board wargames never give you an incentive to do this. It seems that for the GHC, a major attack every 2/3 turns is much better than constantly pushing at the Soviet front lines. In the few games I've played against human opponents their panzers have spent most of the time at 16-24 MP.

I am not sure what exactly about logistics and combat system makes this effective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dangun

I have a question for MKTours.

Why did AGN only turn north, after moving east of the Valdai Hills?

This is definitely not the shortest route.
If we assume for a moment that the goal is to cut the Leningrad rail line and reach the port of Svirtsa to cut all supply into Leningrad then there are 3 basic routes:
1) West of the Volkhov - from hex X64Y41 (just south of Livani, the furthest a panzer gets on turn 1) that's 98MP or 131 for motorised
2) East of the Volkhov, but west of the Valdai Hills - from hex X64Y41, that's 114MP or 165 for motorised
3) East of the Valdai Hills - from hex X64Y41, that's 138MP or 183 for motorised

You chose a route that was 40% longer. Why? I am interested.
I can see that you might encounter fewer EZOCs in this direction. But still, its the long way around.

Thanks

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours
I am still new to the game, so I am not sure if it is the best way, but I think I would keep doing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Kamil,

I have attempted to choose my words very carefully, and once again no one has criticized MkTours for his excellent gameplay, rather what the game engine allows a player to do with logistics.

We all play for different reasons, and fantasy advances based on poor logistical modeling is not for me. I enjoy historical simulations which allow one to play with approximate modeling of conditions.

I fully agree that the game was far from over; but saw no point in continuing to counterattack, displace HQs, and encircle his lead units all to absolutely no avail. And if the things I managed to do upset his his timetable, than I dread to imagine where he would have been if I had not done those things.

Marquo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

Perhaps my one contribution to this game was to present historical evidence against the use of level bombers as flying gas cans. MK Tours mastered the art of logistics to perfection, and the new patch stifled was he was doing as evidenced in this AAR. Extended Lvov coupled with the trans-Roumanian express and flying fuel tanks is now a ting of the past.

Marquo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mktours

Mark,
I think you got the main reason of why you lose this game wrong. In my game with DarbyMcd, we have a house rule of not allowing air-supply from LW bombers, but I still won.
The game is in favor of the soviet side even with the LB air supply, many good axis players like Michael T never doubt of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

Perhaps my one contribution to this game was to present historical evidence against the use of level bombers as flying gas cans. MK Tours mastered the art of logistics to perfection, and the new patch stifled was he was doing as evidenced in this AAR. Extended Lvov coupled with the trans-Roumanian express and flying fuel tanks is now a ting of the past.

Marquo