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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War

 
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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/26/2013 10:56:03 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Do the math and you'll see even 1941 is difficult. Unless you assume an absolutely wide open western border will be ignored by France and the CW in 1940.



Yeah, I did some quick calculations, and yeah, if the Soviets really concentrate on it, they can completely prevent a 40 barb. 41 stuffing I'm more familiar with, but I've always been a little leery of doing it myself, I had two very bad games, one where I got that small chance where it flubbed in S/O 41 and got my army wiped out, and a second time where I got caught trying to pull back in 42 with half my army at the border and half further back. (Who attacks the Soviets in the winter!?)


To Numdydar: Germany in a lot of ways drives the game. They really have the most strategic options, and a good chunk of Allied planning is "Stop whatever we think Germany is going to do."


So the usual plans are one of

1) The "Historic" plan. Knock out France, knock out your neighboring minors, try to attack the Soviets in 41. If the Soviets successfully prevent the DoW, you'll have to do it in 42. This in a lot of ways is where a successful stuffing of the border hurts the most, if you're not set up to react well, you're in a bit of trouble. You'll be behind on your schedule, although it's still possible to kill the Soviets if you're lucky. The soviets will only have about 15 production a turn throughout 41, and you should be managing something like 25-28, so you'll keep building a big hammer, and you can still hurt them quite badly.

2) Go west: Knock out poland, knock out the Low countries, destroy France, attack Spain, free Gibraltar, and then try the Sealion, ignoring the Soviets as much as possible, at least until Britain is conquered. If the Soviets are stuffing the border here, it mostly means you have to be careful about them attacking you, and interrupting your Sealion by charging into Poland or Rumania.


3) The 42 Barb. It usually combines half of the previous two plans. You knock out Poland and the low countries and France as usual, and then you go into Spain and secure Gibraltar. You send a second column eastwards from Libya, and take out Suez to secure the Med, and send in the necessary 4 corps up to pick up Persia and Iraq (or at the very least, force the Allies to attack them to prevent you from grabbing them) Ideally, you attack in 1942, with a charge coming up from Tabriz and trying to snatch Baku.

Stuffing the border won't really work against this, and to be honest, you really need to conquer Persia with the Soviets if it looks like the Germans are heading to that part of the world, you CANNOT afford to have them start a mere 2 Asian map hexes from 40% of your oil.



The thing is, up until the fall of France, Germany can pretty fluidly switch the plan and the builds necessary to support it from one of those above plans to the other. If I'm planning for a 41 barb, but I get the whiff that the Soviets are stuffing the border, I might very well switch to the Mediterranean/42 plan. A lot of it will depend on how perceptive and how flexible Germany is.


But the tl;dr version is that yes, if Germany can't get the DoW to work in 41, it'll have to be 42. You'll probably want to spend 1941 doing things in the Med and the middle east, and possibly Spain and Gibraltar if you have the time and the troop placement right.

(in reply to paulderynck)
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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/26/2013 11:02:18 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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Status: offline 		Adding in, here's how it works mechanically.


To declare war, Germany needs twice the "Garrison" value that the Soviets have at the border. (The Border is defined as 3 hexes away from the exact border line)

Your garrison value is equal to the printed value of special chits you draw at the end of the turn, plus an amount for the number of troops you have nearby. However it's only the troops that are within 3 hexes of the border that count, anything further back is meaningless for declaration of war purposes.

Generally, an airplane unit is worth one, most land units are worth one, but certain powerful units (armor, mechanized infantry, and mountain units) are worth two, and divisions and other specialized units like artillery are worth a half each.


So here's the thing; if the Soviets go all out building troops that have good garrison values relative to their cost, they're very possibly going to be able to delay the declaration of war. However, the units that they built will be some of their weaker ones, and they'll probably be very light on airplanes. Plus, if it doesn't work, your army is right on the border during the devastating surprise impulse. If you play the Barbarossa secnario when it comes out, you can see just how bad it is when the Soviets are caught with their pants down like that.


So while a good stuffing of the border can prevent or at least delay the declaration of war. However, if it doesn't work, you've put yourself in an enormously vulnerable position and you'll probably lose the game. It's a very polar strategy, and it's not universally adopted. If the Soviets adopt a setup where most of their army is say, out of stuka range from the border, the Germans will be able to attack more or less whenever they want.


Edit: Sorry for the double post.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 32
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 12:30:03 AM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well late '41 is not helping Germany very much . If it is past July/August then Germany is hosed in '41. Does anyone know how the game itself is going to address this? Can Germany attack Russia in the May/June turn or is that really hard to do or forbibben by the rules somehow?

Sorry for all the questions, but since I know nothing about how the game plays, I am trying to figure it all out . So thanks for being patience with me.

MWiF is addressing this as described by Michael in the post immediately above yours.

People who play the game a few times may decide that it is necessary to play with that option. Others may not.

There are still many, many possibilities. Sometimes the USSR can't get their stuff (hey - a pun!) back from the border in time and get massacred in 1942 anyway. Sometimes they don't even try this strategy and sit back and wait for Barb. Sometimes the Germans don't attack and wait and see how long it takes the USSR to break their garrison.

The reason the game got to be so popular is that no two games are alike and there is room to try many different strategies. If the Germans are not attacking Russia in '41, they are not hosed. They could be taking out Egypt and Gibraltar...

_____________________________

Paul

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 12:40:20 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks gents this is really cool stuff. Thanks so much for sharing.

My question still remains about what 'late 41' means. To me late means September or later. If that is true, then you sure don't want to attack Russia then right? Of course the winter attrition would be pretty mild since you are not going to be that far into Russia when it hits

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Post #: 34
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 3:17:53 AM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		IIRC it is still breaking the pact, just at a lower ratio, so very dependent on what is on the "common border" (i.e within 3 hexes of the border line). Also IIRC it can apply as early as JA41.

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 3:58:18 AM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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There's no real "Winter attrition" or indeed, attrition of any sort in WiF. Units fight at full strength until they're knocked out of supply, at which point they're almost helpless. There's none of this gradual degradation of fighting capability you see in real life

I seem to recall the original game designer, Harry Rowland, saying somewhere that he wanted a "memory-less" game, one where you can tell what sort of status the unit is in just by looking at the board)


So there's not really "winter attrition". Bad weather that winter brings will make it a lot harder to move or stay in supply, and you have massive penalties to attacking, but if I poured the entire Wehrmacht into the Russian and Ukrainian plains, and leave them there over the winter, and nobody attacks while the snow flies, they'll come out of it in the same strength that they came into it.


The main reasons you don't want to fight the Soviets in the winter are a bit different.

1) Tactically, they're a lot less hampered by the bad weather than the Germans are. Fighting in the home country makes it easier to stay in supply, and the better Soviet units get bonuses in fighting if it's snowing out (Exact bonuses vary depending on what combat table you're playing with). They'll still slow down from it, but not as much as the Germans do.

2) If you're in an enemy's home country, or make attacks in the enemy home country, they get a large bonus to production. If the Soviets are running all of their factories, during 1941 if the Germans are not inside the USSR proper, the Soviets will produce 14.5 build points, which rounds up to 15. If they're in the country and attack a Soviet unit there, it jumps up to 29 a turn.


Now, the Germans will be killing Soviet units, and very likely overrunning Soviet factories and resources, or prompting the Soviets to pack up their factories and ship them to Siberia (which will put them out of commission for a little while), but the main reason you don't want to attack the Soviets in the winter has less to do with your army falling apart when it starts snowing, it's that you've just doubled the Soviet production, and if you don't keep killing a number of units to keep up, you've just made the enemy stronger.

2.5) There are a special type of unit called "militia". You can only build them when you're at war. To be honest, they're not great, they're slow and have mediocre combat factors, and none of the bonuses that armor or the like have. They are, however, dirt cheap and train very quickly, and the Soviets have 14 of them in the force pool if you play with the PoliF units. Declaring war allows the Soviets to start cranking them out, and again, giving cheap units to the enemy is not something I want to do.


So just about the worst thing you could do is to declare war in say, September, advance " a little bit" into Russia, and then sit until the weather clears. That's going to give the soviets all the breathing space they need to build something unbreakable in 42. Unless I see something very vulnerable at the front, I'd probably want to wait and just attack in 1942 when the weather clears up.


Hope this helps, and sorry I get so windy when I'm pontificating.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 36
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 4:01:53 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		It does help. Thanks again for the insights

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 9:54:17 AM   
Neilster


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Status: offline 		Also, the Arctic weather zone encompasses pretty much all the Eastern Front, so it doesn't matter whether the Germans advance very far or not, they still get smashed by bad winter weather.

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 9/27/2013 10:58:22 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Status: offline 		As Michael mentioned earlier, I added an optional rule to make it slightly more difficult for the USSR to 'stuff' the border so that Germany cannot declare war on the USSR. This is optional, so it is up to the players whether they want to deny the USSR of "certain peace" through until 1942.

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Post #: 39
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 10:31:48 AM   
chris3863

 

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Status: offline 		I've done it but it means launching a winter attack on Russia in J/F 1940. Leave a dozen ground units and a couple of fighters in the west and stick every thing else in Poland including planes. The Russians start with 6 ground units in the west and 6 piloted planes. The have 3 ground units and Zhukov in the east. They can at most have 1 inf build arrive due to gearing. You on the other hand, can easily get your garrison value to 40 or more with chits.

So unless they somehow know for sure at set up your going to attack they probably will not be able to redeploy fast enough to stop you because they have to take combined impulses while neutral and N/D will likely be a short turn. After all in S/O how can they tell the difference between the normal concentrating on Poland strategy and setting up for an attack. It won't be until N/D when you don't redeploy units that it will become obvious and as I said that will most likely be a short turn.

If all else fails and they somehow read your mind and thwart you its no loss, just redeploy for a spring attack against France.

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 2:18:53 PM   
Zorachus99


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Status: offline 		With the optional rule that decreases the garrison ratio in Jul/Aug, it will be nearly impossible to stuff the border for all of '41.

Side-effect of stuffing the border is two-fold with the optional.

1) If the Russians stuff garrison value until July, then they will be on the border (historically accurate)
2) If the Russians stuff, the war starts late for Germany during Jul/August (historically accurate), and will still likely require 80%+ of their units, but allows the German player to DOW in 1941, rather than 1942.

The flip side is that the optional affects the Russians too, so 'Sealion' or 'Close the Med' could be significantly ruined without an 'Eastern Army' to garrison with.


_____________________________

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 2:45:33 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		going back to Offensive Chits & Phoney War...

It is entirely possible for the Germans to play conservatively in the foregone conclusion in the West, saving up every possible advantage for the titanic struggle in the East when they are aiming for a 1941 Barbarossa strategy. They can execute a No Bessarabia option without even activating Hungary (no loss of Russian resource, no extra 30% USE roll) and fighting a careful, low commitment, slow motion war in Yugoslavia (Italian HQ in 1940 run the show perhaps, Rumanians conquer or at least block the Yugo resources). They can conquer France without using either Offensive Chit. They can even conquer France without attacking the Low Countries in 1939, and even without ever attacking the Netherlands, but you will need all of the tactical tricks in the game system to do it, and perhaps even a Kriegsmarine played as fearlessly as the historical Royal Navy. Though I have been playing a long time with newer Vichy Rules than the ones used in MWiF, I look forward to once again exploring this option with the take Paris requirement. Though in general I feel the high factor German units can grind up the low factor French units well enough if you take proper advantage of the combat systems (tanks....open country), such that taking Paris at the end isn't so Gotterdamerung as say it was in Third Reich, or in 1d10 WiF that I don't generally play.

Advantages are several - Offensive Chits in Russia are very good to have. US Entry is coming along as slowly as possible. This keeps the Allies from selecting the Lend-Lease to the USSR options for as long as possible, among many other benefits. Not giving the CW the Dutch convoy points until Japan needs to enter the war also keeps them a lot more stretched, particularly when it is time to set up a new convoy line to the Arctic to help their new, desperate Allies in the East.

A German DOW on Belgium on 1939 can possibly accelerate the demise of Germany at the end of the game, more than France at the beginning of the game. Give the USA a high value entry chit and then roll bad weather making the DOW moot and you will regret it later, though you might not connect the two events. Particularly in MWiF, where the chit distribution is infinite, rather than fixed, and US Entry levels will have a few more outlying type high/low results than a game on paper.


(in reply to Zorachus99)
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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 2:52:12 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

They can execute a No Bessarabia option without even activating Hungary (no loss of Russian resource, no extra 30% USE roll)



Exactly how would this work?

Also not to get too side tracked, has anyone played without conquring France at all? Just fortify the border and force the Allies to come to Germany?

(in reply to brian brian)
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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 3:21:59 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		There are "Sitzkrieg" strategies, sure. Not for me. They are employed vs the Russians. Letting France survive until the USA joins the war, when they cooperate with the Yanks, would be the doom of Germany and would free up the CW entirely to do whatever it wants, anywhere on the map (goodbye, Italy). Not good, even with Belgium, the Rhine, some West Wall, and the Ruhr for Adolf to hide behind.

No Bessarabia without paprika is simple. On the 3rd impulse of the game, which is the 2nd Axis impulse, the Germans DOW Yugoslavia and activate Rumania. von Leeb and a few 4 movement INF and a few lower-power bombers (all not needed in Poland) move into Yugoslavia and attack Croatia with the benefits of surprise, wherever they might set up as they can waste a unit to block an attack on Zagreb, but likely won't, expecting the Hungarians to be activating eventually too. The Rumanians carefully ooze into eastern Serbia, mostly to block Yugo resources from creating Build Points for whichever Ally aligns Yugoslavia. (The Rumanians will have supply issues and it doesn't hurt to have an extended range Luftwaffe bomber in reserve in case Prince Paul gets frisky). After that von Leeb HQ makes forward progress when possible and attacks whenever the weather might be good. The only objective is to keep Russia from demanding Bessarabia in the first place, it doesn't matter when Yugoslavia is conquered. When Italy joins the war, it is possible to have an Italian HQ replace the von Leeb HQ, which can be employed reorganizing units on the Western Front.

The No Bessarabia option does cost the Germans a 5 Build Point Rumanian HQ that they would otherwise receive for free in 1940 in other activate Rumania situations.

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 4:33:23 PM   
bo

 

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Status: offline 		All very good answers by very informed players, also Annual 98 has a few ideas on the first move by Germany in sept/oct 1939. Interesting reading.

Bo

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 6:38:56 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

There are "Sitzkrieg" strategies, sure. Not for me. They are employed vs the Russians. Letting France survive until the USA joins the war, when they cooperate with the Yanks, would be the doom of Germany and would free up the CW entirely to do whatever it wants, anywhere on the map (goodbye, Italy). Not good, even with Belgium, the Rhine, some West Wall, and the Ruhr for Adolf to hide behind.

No Bessarabia without paprika is simple. On the 3rd impulse of the game, which is the 2nd Axis impulse, the Germans DOW Yugoslavia and activate Rumania. von Leeb and a few 4 movement INF and a few lower-power bombers (all not needed in Poland) move into Yugoslavia and attack Croatia with the benefits of surprise, wherever they might set up as they can waste a unit to block an attack on Zagreb, but likely won't, expecting the Hungarians to be activating eventually too. The Rumanians carefully ooze into eastern Serbia, mostly to block Yugo resources from creating Build Points for whichever Ally aligns Yugoslavia. (The Rumanians will have supply issues and it doesn't hurt to have an extended range Luftwaffe bomber in reserve in case Prince Paul gets frisky). After that von Leeb HQ makes forward progress when possible and attacks whenever the weather might be good. The only objective is to keep Russia from demanding Bessarabia in the first place, it doesn't matter when Yugoslavia is conquered. When Italy joins the war, it is possible to have an Italian HQ replace the von Leeb HQ, which can be employed reorganizing units on the Western Front.

The No Bessarabia option does cost the Germans a 5 Build Point Rumanian HQ that they would otherwise receive for free in 1940 in other activate Rumania situations.


The rules state that if Rumaina, Hungrary, and Bulgeria are aligned by Germany, then Russia can reduce the resources delivered by 1 each. But not the oil until all the resources have been denied. So you are still losing resources in the gambit just not the oil.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 46
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/18/2013 8:19:27 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		yes, that is exactly correct. what I meant by 'not lose the resource' was to not lose the 2nd resource. you automatically align Rumania, that is the whole point of this particular opening, and Russia reduces the resources sent by one. but you can fight the Yugos without the Hungarians, which is more difficult somewhat, but not impossible for the German war machine. one of the questions in your original post is what to do with excess capacity in that powerful machine over the first several turns of otherwise Phoney War.

one point of doing it that way is to minimize US Entry rolls. another one isn't so much for the Germans to not lose another incoming resource from Russia, but to not let the Russians keep that 2nd resource for themselves. the German economy is much bigger and that resource won't matter as much to them. but that one resource over aligning Hungary or not, left with Uncle Joe, means 5 Build points of more stuff (sat an INF and a winterized specialty division) for the Russians by the time of Barbarossa.

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 2:41:23 PM   
vicberg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian
No Bessarabia without paprika is simple. On the 3rd impulse of the game, which is the 2nd Axis impulse, the Germans DOW Yugoslavia and activate Rumania. von Leeb and a few 4 movement INF and a few lower-power bombers (all not needed in Poland) move into Yugoslavia and attack Croatia with the benefits of surprise, wherever they might set up as they can waste a unit to block an attack on Zagreb, but likely won't, expecting the Hungarians to be activating eventually too. The Rumanians carefully ooze into eastern Serbia, mostly to block Yugo resources from creating Build Points for whichever Ally aligns Yugoslavia. (The Rumanians will have supply issues and it doesn't hurt to have an extended range Luftwaffe bomber in reserve in case Prince Paul gets frisky). After that von Leeb HQ makes forward progress when possible and attacks whenever the weather might be good. The only objective is to keep Russia from demanding Bessarabia in the first place, it doesn't matter when Yugoslavia is conquered. When Italy joins the war, it is possible to have an Italian HQ replace the von Leeb HQ, which can be employed reorganizing units on the Western Front.


I'm confused here. You can't activate Rumania until Belgrade is controlled by the Axis. If not aligning Hungary, there's no way GE/IT is getting through the mountains to Belgrade within a few impulses. Then another impulse is needed to align Rumania during the DOW step. RU often sets up to demand Bessarabia within the 2nd impulse of the game anyway, which, yes, opens it for a RU first strategy, but counts on bad weather, reserves and increased production making a RU first a potential game over for the Axis.

Even if you align Hungary on the 3rd impulse of the game, Yugo sets up around Zagreb, not the wide open Belgrade, which allows for a Rumania alignment early, but also makes a Yugo attack early in the game a potential multiple turn affair, especially with bad weather. If CW chooses (and they are stretched to do this), they can attempt to push a corp (or two) into Yugo which makes it even more difficult. The entire time this is happening, it's harder to push into Netherlands, Belgium and France (if playing without the no ZOC with surprise option).

Plus there's the USE affects of doing all this in 1939 vs. 1940. And for what gain? You can align Rumania later in the game? I'm not following the gains of an early Yugo attack?

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 48
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 3:15:37 PM   
Centuur


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Status: offline 		From RAW:

• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared
war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has
declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;

So if Germany is at war with Yugoslavia, it can align Rumania immediately.

_____________________________

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Post #: 49
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 3:19:57 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		The Germans can activate Rumania if they have merely Declared War on Yugoslavia, no need to control Belgrade.

The Germans have no need of hurry in conquering Yugoslavia.

If the West wants to foolishly land troops on the Adriatic Coast, more is the better for the Axis. If Italy enters the war, supply for those troops will be very difficult to maintain in general. To help the Yugoslavians, they will need to march inland, and their supply lines get worse. The Axis will have slightly more units in the theater, giving them better options for maneuver to block supply. Such troops would also have no air cover. Anything the Allies send in to Yugoslavia isn't ever coming back.

Anything that affects US Entry is not to to be taken lightly. This Gambit does cost the Axis two USE die rolls in 1939, when stakes are high, each at 30% chance of generating a chit. A lot of Axis players would add Hungary in immediately for another 30% roll.

The advantages are several. Launching Barbarossa from Bessarabia gains many things. The Odessa factory will never rail out to Siberia. A large, powerful, mobile German Army Group can invade the Ukraine from Bessarabia, which seemingly only gains them one hex row. However with Rumania active and linked to Germany by rail at some point later in 1940, a lot of German units don't need to waste 2 impulses marching through south-eastern Poland and western Ukraine. They can threaten Kiev basically immediately. There are also economic advantages. The Rumanian factory produces for the Axis side starting on the first turn. Within a few turns, the Yugoslavian resources can be transported back to the Reich by taking Macedonia and shipping them out of the country to the south, though it also helps for the Germans to keep their ATR as far forward as they can base it to eventually fly a re-supply mission to the Rumanians, who must operate in Serbia on their own, without supply. It also keeps the political initiative in the Balkans firmly in Axis hands, as they have no need to decide what to do with the 3 Axis Minors when the Russians demand Bessarabia.

This Gambit does cost the Italians their only source of oil however and the Axis need to plan for that by not using up excess hordes of Italian oil-dependent units on their first two turns of war, which significantly lowers Italian capabilities when they join the war. It also possibly shows the German strategic plan to the Allies, unless the Germans are willing to do this even with a different plan in mind, as a bluff.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 50
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 3:27:31 PM   
vicberg

 

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Status: offline 		Just read that rule. Hungary may be aligned AFTER Yugo DOW but Rumania may be aligned immediately. I did not know that.

However, at least the people I play against start ready to align Bessarabia on 2nd impulse of the game, so this gambit really doesn't come into play.

It's a typical tough call that WIF brings up turn after turn. USE affects vs. economic trade off. I would personally start von Dweeb (leeb) against France, reorg the 8-4 MOT and 9-4 INF on axis 2nd impulse and then have the option in SO39 to push into Netherlands or Belgium on the hopes of fair weather or rain. I've seen the Rotterdam/Antwerp CW defense one too many times. It's ugly.

(in reply to brian brian)
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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 3:34:43 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		No, the Russians can not demand Bessarabia on the first Allied impulse, only on the second Allied impulse. If the Germans DOW Yugoslavia on their second impulse and activate Rumania, the Russians can never demand Bessarabia. It is all solely a German choice to make.

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Post #: 52
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 4:30:04 PM   
vicberg

 

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Status: offline 		That's a different story then. Another rule I didn't read close enough. Demanding Bessarabia has to come on Allied 2nd impulse.

That's a good case for a 39 Yugo attack.

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RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 7:26:04 PM   
Dabrion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

So if the USSR can prevent a '41 attack, what happens? Russia attacks in '42? Germany runs amock in NA and Near East in '41?


There is an option for a 42 barb. But really you want to do that deliberately, if you do it as a glitched 41 barb your forces are likely not in good positions to exploit the additional year. Options are the Med/Africa/Near East. Sea-Lion is another chapter... The goal in that case should be to secure Italy from allied invasion. So Gb+Suez, Spain are good targets. Iraq, Persia is another option, there is a way to get Turkey into the boat that is quite devastating.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 54
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/23/2013 10:19:50 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2251
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		I think if the Germans opt for a 42, they need to look at coming in through the Caucasus and being able to align Turkey as well in order to stretch the Russians out more, etc. That also puts the Germans right on the doorstep of all that nice oil.

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 55
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/24/2013 6:08:06 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Numdydar

Sorry to keep spamming the board with my posts, but just keep thing of questions I would like answers to Especially since I have never played the board game at all.

In other games it seems like Germany has enough units to start the invasion of the low countries without needing to wait for new production. So my questions are:

1) Is it a good idea to use the O-chit in the second turn after Poland falls against Low Countries/France even if the weather is poor?

2) If you are going to wait for France, is going after Yugoslovia an option?

3) If neither of these are viable, is the best action to just do nothing like historical? Since Germany is on a tight schedule, it seems like a huge waste to just letting time pass.



2) Second Axis impulse DoW of Yugoslavia

quote:

20. The Axis declares war on: (if Japan declares war place USA entry chit in the USA (Ja) entry pool else place it in the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (1 USA entry chit and a 20% chance of another will be added to the USA entry pool)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (There is a 80% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA entry pool)
Other minor (There is a 30% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA entry pool)


quote:

19.6.2 Rumania
If the USSR hasn’t claimed Bessarabia:
• it cannot declare war on Rumania;
• Rumania can only align with Germany if Germany has declared war either on Yugoslavia or the USSR (not if the USSR has declared war on Germany), or if Germany controls Belgrade;
• Bulgaria can only align with Germany if Germany controls Belgrade or is at war with Greece; and
• Hungary can only align with Germany after Germany has declared war on Yugoslavia or the USSR.


quote:

19.4 Minor country units
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2 Rumania).


quote:

21. The Allies support an attacked minor (there is 70% chance of a USA entry chit will be added to the USA (Ge/It) entry pool)
This requires 4+ Allied corps or armies (not counting the units of the minor itself).



Germany
If Germany declares war (DoW) on Yugoslavia (Other minor) it then may align Hungary and Rumania (one per impulse).

Germany aligns Rumania
The USSR cannot claim Bessarabia because Rumania is aligned with Germany.
Germany would now receive all the Rumanian Oil. Since this will end the Rumania/Italy trade agreement Germany might want to start to trade Oil to Italy.
Rumania can move one unit into Yugoslavia on the surprise impulse and another unit after its reserves arrive on the next turn in the reinforcement stage.


Italy
Italy can surprise port attack the Yugoslavian naval units.
(Discussion of Italy conquering Yugoslavia to avoid complete conquest was discussed on AI for MWiF - Italy)

May want to DoW France, the CW, or both this would be an additional US entry chit roll.
May want to DoW Yugoslavia (Other minor) this would be an additional US entry chit roll.

Italy remains a Neutral Major Power If it doesn’t DoW France, the CW, or both.

As an Active Major power Italy can choose any action it wants.
As a Neutral Major Power would have to choose a combined action and could move two land units into Yugoslavia.
(See AI for MWiF-Italy for Italian Activity limits)


The Allies
The order for the Allies to align Yugoslavia would be the CW (Commonwealth), France, and the USSR.

If the USSR aligns Yugoslavia Germany can break the Nazi-Soviet pact and the USSR would remain a Neutral Major Power

quote:

For each of Denmark, Greece, Hungary, Norway, Sweden or Yugoslavia that the Soviet Union declares war, or a Soviet controlled unit enters, Germany may choose to either keep one of the build points it would normally send to the Soviet Union, or receive an extra oil from the Soviet Union, each turn. This choice cannot be changed later.


1939
It takes Germany 2 factories to produce a BP (Build Point). 2 times the production multiplier (0.75) = 1.5 BP
With all German factories producing and saving 1 oil resource and the USSR With 22 out of 29 factories producing and saving 1 oil resource.

If Germany takes the extra oil resource will take away the USSR saved oil resource.

If Germany retains the BP this will reduce the USSR production by 1 BP. And then Germany can either increase its production by 1 or increase its saved oil by 1.


Axis Overview
Yugoslavia has two factories and two resources. It is conquered when the enemy controls the factories at Belgrade and Zagreb. There are four borders with the Axis players: Germany, Hungary, Italy, and Rumania.

If the Axis players control Belgrade, Yugoslavia then Germany can align Bulgaria.

The Negative side
The Axis will probably have to initially be content by containing Yugoslavia until after Poland falls. This would mean no surprise impulse.
Italy looses its Rumanian oil.

The Positive side
The USSR cannot claim Bessarabia.
Germany gets all the Rumanian oil.
Hungary and Rumania quickly become aligned by the Axis.
You don’t want the USSR to align Yugoslavia because of the Nazi-Soviet pact.
Unless the CW has sent 2 units from Great Britain to the Mediterranean area it cannot support Yugoslavia.
France cannot afford to support Yugoslavia and hope to defend against Germany.




< Message edited by Extraneous -- 11/24/2013 7:12:10 PM >

_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 56
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/24/2013 11:54:39 PM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Very good post, Extraneous.

I would add one thing. The only time that I have played WiFFE as Russia and been thoroughly thrashed by the Germans was when the Germans did exactly this:
* DOW Yugoslavia on Axis impulse 2.
* CW aligns Yugoslavia.
* Germany used both O chits to take out France (in fact we were using the O point rules, but effectively the same thing).
* Germany concentrated on building O chits throughout 1940 and for the rest of the game.
* Germany launched Barbarossa in M/J 1941 with a stack of units in Chisinau, and lots of O chits in store (I think it was 3 or so), and drove to the Caucasus to align Turkey, and took that route to support Italy in the middle east.
* Italy took out Suez and focussed on the drive into the middle east. Italy and Japan linked up in India after Japan launched a successful assault in India (didn't lead to conquest, but contained the CW units there). Nearly all of the middle eastern minors were aligned to Italy.

The thing to look at next time you're examining the map -- there are in fact only 3 victory cities in European USSR. Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev. There are many more in the middle east -- Istanbul, Suez, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Riyadh, Teheran, Aden. Those 6 come with minimal allied defences. If you're trying to win the game (not the war) as the axis then the victory cities are your focus.


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Del

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 57
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/25/2013 7:00:36 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Germany should not have been able to break the garrison ratio in 1941, building as she did.

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Paul

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 58
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/25/2013 9:31:27 AM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/30/2006
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Germany should not have been able to break the garrison ratio in 1941, building as she did.


It was, and quite often can, depending on the losses taken. Germany spent O chits in France more to ensure not taking losses than anything else. Also, having Rumania and Hungary aligned earlier means that the minor units count towards the garrison ratio, so that makes it easier to break the pact.

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Del

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 59
RE: Offensive chits and Phoney War - 11/25/2013 10:23:05 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		OK, I'll amend that: Germany should not have been able to break the garrison ratio in 1941, building as she did, unless the Russians built and deployed unskillfully.

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Paul

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 60
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