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SD 5 AI testing - 11/5/2013 7:31:02 AM   
mcaryf

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 7/11/2003
From: Uk
Status: offline 		This is the 5th thread in my series on enhancements for SC3 to improve the facilities for scenario designers. This one is concerned with improving facilities for testing AI scripts and a further potentially interesting possibility that might arise from that.

I guess that all players will be aware that the AI enjoys some advantages as compared with a human player but those that have not looked at the way scenarios are created might not be aware of the potential extent of these advantages.

Players can increase the capabilities of the AI by two adjustments - first by setting the difficulty level and second by changing the experience advantage which the AI units will enjoy. The manual will tell you that the difficulty setting can increase the spotting range for AI units and the amount of plunder that you or the AI might receive but this is only part of the story. In the standard 1939 scenario there are, for example, well over 100 UNIT events where the AI will be given additional units to guard threatened areas or to build up for an attack.

Scenario designers can qualify events both by the degree of difficulty the player has chosen and also by which side the AI is playing. Just for example as a designer I could if I wish not trouble the AXIS AI with a decision as to whether the Shinano is to be completed as a CV or a BB but rather allow it to have both. Thus if you have played a scenario versus the AI with you as the Axis and then you try your luck playing the Allies you should not assume that the AI is facing precisely the same challenges that you did. An example might be the supply restriction that Malta creates for the Axis in North Africa - when the AI is the Axis I might set a supply event with a trigger that fired 10% of the time. However, I could have an identical event that fires 20% of the time that only operates when a human is playing the Axis. The designers of the standard scenarios seem to use a convention where they label events that are specifically for the AI but that is only a convention and does not have to be followed.

So what is it that I would like to see changed about this useful ability to load the dice in favour of the AI? Well when you are developing and testing a scenario it is very useful to be able to set the AI to play itself which it will happily do without the constraints of sleep or eating or other interruptions. You can do this by pressing Function F3 after setting a scenario to start. the AI then operates both sides but as far as I can tell it does so within the constraints set when the scenario started and it plays as if it is a human. Thus the side that was set up as human does not enjoy the benefits that might accrue to the proper AI. In addition to the game playing as it currently does, I would like to have the ability to specify whether the two AIs should be playing with a level playing field either both having the "AI" benefits or neither having them. I think this would help with testing and development because you could in theory create scenarios with many differences between the AI and the human version and both aspects need to be tested.

The interesting possibility that this change would enable is that scenario designers could create AIs that might battle each other on standard scenarios in the same way that humans can now fight each other over a standard scenario. After all Big Blue and other chess playing computers have engaged in epic battles.

Regards

Mike
Post #: 1
RE: SD 5 AI testing - 11/8/2013 12:18:16 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

You can do this by pressing Function F3 after setting a scenario to start.


It's been a while since I was doing AI-AI playtesting for my A3R mod for SC GC GOLD a couple years ago, but if you press F3 before starting the scenario then it will play in AI versus AI mode. I don't believe this has changed? Anyways, AI-AI should be possible but only for default settings for each side. There may be some value for being able to set higher AI difficulty levels for one or both sides for playtesting, but really the only point of the exercise is to verify the basic AI strategies are working as intended.

Once the scenario designer is convinced of this, then it's trivial to increase the AI bonuses for higher difficulty settings for games against a live player. And that's only to help overcome some of the inherent weaknesses of the generic AI and the mistakes it makes that a good human player wouldn't make. I will add that it's important for the scenario designer to really understand how the AI plays by actually playing it a lot and not just rely upon the AI-AI games for feedback. This is something I will also have to do when SC3 arrives, since Hubert has been making lots of AI improvements since GC GOLD and probably more for SC3. It may be that the generic AI won't make as many mistakes in SC3 and won't need as many handicaps as it has needed in the past.

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 2
RE: SD 5 AI testing - 11/8/2013 8:37:00 PM   
mcaryf

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 7/11/2003
From: Uk
Status: offline 		Hi pzgndr

I am not convinced that the event settings which only fire if the AI plays one side or the other operate for both sides in AI v AI mode so it is not just a case of changing the difficulty or experience ratings. I am talking here about for example the 100 or so extra units that the AI side is gifted.

Regards

Mike

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 3
RE: SD 5 AI testing - 11/15/2013 3:14:02 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		The problem is an A.I. will never be as efficient as a human. There are lots of ways to compensate for it though, luckier, better production, more units, more experience. I try not the give the A.I. units unless its absolutely necessary when I design.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 4
RE: SD 5 AI testing - 11/16/2013 6:24:12 AM   
mcaryf

 

Posts: 169
Joined: 7/11/2003
From: Uk
Status: offline 		Hi Al
Am I right in thinking that in AI v AI mode one of the AI's is actually treated as if it were the human player in terms of events etc?

If they could be treated the same on some setting then it would be possible to try 2 versions of the AI against each other without the scales being loaded against one of them.

Regards

Mike

< Message edited by mcaryf -- 11/16/2013 7:26:28 AM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 5
RE: SD 5 AI testing - 11/17/2013 1:28:04 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Try this. Hit F3 to debug before selecting a campaign, to get AI vs AI. Then during campaign selection, use the Advanced and Scripts selection to pull up the scripts. Deselect the AI scripting.

But... really, why do this?? Yeah you'll get AI playing like a human player with no bonuses, but those bonuses are there to compensate for the AI not playing like a challenging human player. Maybe you get something out of that; I wouldn't.




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(in reply to mcaryf)
Post #: 6
RE: SD 5 AI testing - 11/19/2013 6:31:00 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		The A.I. doesn't distinguish between human and A.I. opponent. It just plays it's strategy.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 7
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