Yeah, but unlike PanzerCorps the vast majority of Matrix products doesn't really fit to Steam portfolio and Matrix would cannibalize themselves if titles as WiF or WitP AE are offered with a 75% discount every now and then.
Even if we were to take the assertion that "wargames are a special snowflake and established digital distribution retail patterns do not apply to them" as a given, that still has little to no bearing on Panzer Corps getting a Steam release because being put on Steam does not guarantee nor even imply that Panzer Corps or any given game is going to be put on massive 75% discounts.
There are games in Steam's catalog that have never or only very rarely have taken any kind of discount at all. Off the top of my head, Out of the Park Baseball 9 has sat at 9.99 USD for years.
Bottom-line, Valve isn't going to put a game on sale without the developer/publisher's consent, although they will take the initiative to ask the owner if they want it to be. That those of us who would prefer wargames to shift to Steam or other similar forms of modern digital distribution also hopes that they will enter regular discounts is only by implication, but essentially "wargames should shift to Steam" and "wargames shouldn't be selling for such high prices" are two separate and distinct arguments. If Slitherine really wanted to, they could keep Panzer Corps at the current price point forever and ever and there'd still be a significant incentive to want to buy a Steam copy over the current model.
Wonder why it is when in free market, someone does something really good, it becomes a target to be torn down and hated? ( MS,Walmart,Apple...etc) No one ever offers to come up with something better-and how would they run it... guess they would do the same thing.
Sigh... Calm down, Steam alarmists. There's not much reason for Sliterine to tie themselves to Steam; their profit margins are probably RAZOR thin as is, so why would they let Steam take a cut?
I don't think you know how profit margins work. (hint: the more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit)
Umm, say what?
"Profit margin is the percentage of selling price that turned into profit." (Profit margin) Units sold doesn't enter into it, bro.
No, it's Net Profit over Revenue. Guess what happens to the number needed for net profit when revenue goes up but costs remain static (because virtually all of the cost of a digital product is incurred in development, assuming you aren't spending on marketing)?
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personally I have no issues with Steam. The only pain is because I didn't think ahead I bought games for my daughter under my account which ha snow been hijacked by her. So when she is on I can't play. Thats my only issue. I've got many games that cost buttons, ones I'd never have paid full price for but did when they where heavily reduced. So Steam really doesn't bother me at all. All publishers can be looked at in a negative way as their a middle man between the talent and the customer.
Bottom-line, Valve isn't going to put a game on sale without the developer/publisher's consent, although they will take the initiative to ask the owner if they want it to be. That those of us who would prefer wargames to shift to Steam or other similar forms of modern digital distribution also hopes that they will enter regular discounts is only by implication, but essentially "wargames should shift to Steam" and "wargames shouldn't be selling for such high prices" are two separate and distinct arguments. If Slitherine really wanted to, they could keep Panzer Corps at the current price point forever and ever and there'd still be a significant incentive to want to buy a Steam copy over the current model.
Which is why I could not and cannot understand why M/S, upon acquiring AGEOD, yanked all their games from Steam. There was no demand or pressure (from Steam) to discount these games. The only thing I can think of is that they were a lower regular price on Steam than M/S wanted them, so to block an avenue to AGEOD games at a lower price they removed them from Steam. IIRC "price consistency" was an argument for the contraction...it would be sad if "price consistency" meant "making certain each unit sold was priced as high as possible".
"Profit margin is the percentage of selling price that turned into profit." (Profit margin) Units sold doesn't enter into it, bro.
No, it's Net Profit over Revenue. Guess what happens to the number needed for net profit when revenue goes up but costs remain static (because virtually all of the cost of a digital product is incurred in development, assuming you aren't spending on marketing)?
NPM = NP/R, where NP = R - C
Let's say I'm selling something at $25K a unit, with a fixed cost of $50K (development, digital distribution afterwards).
4 units NP $100K - $50K = $50K NPM = 50% profit
6 units NP $150K - $50K = $100K NPM = 75% profit
8 units NP $200K - $50K = $150K NPM = 100% profit
As your units sold (shipped) goes up your profit margin also goes up. To quote someone,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alchenar
I don't think you know how profit margins work. (hint: the more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit)
The more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make the exact same profit . Leave the unit price where it is and your profit increases.
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Joined: 4/20/2003 From: England Status: offline
Though I have seen some around only the other day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
quote:
ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Bottom-line, Valve isn't going to put a game on sale without the developer/publisher's consent, although they will take the initiative to ask the owner if they want it to be. That those of us who would prefer wargames to shift to Steam or other similar forms of modern digital distribution also hopes that they will enter regular discounts is only by implication, but essentially "wargames should shift to Steam" and "wargames shouldn't be selling for such high prices" are two separate and distinct arguments. If Slitherine really wanted to, they could keep Panzer Corps at the current price point forever and ever and there'd still be a significant incentive to want to buy a Steam copy over the current model.
Which is why I could not and cannot understand why M/S, upon acquiring AGEOD, yanked all their games from Steam. There was no demand or pressure (from Steam) to discount these games. The only thing I can think of is that they were a lower regular price on Steam than M/S wanted them, so to block an avenue to AGEOD games at a lower price they removed them from Steam. IIRC "price consistency" was an argument for the contraction...it would be sad if "price consistency" meant "making certain each unit sold was priced as high as possible".
Off the top of my head, Out of the Park Baseball 9 has sat at 9.99 USD for years.
I believe that has been at a steady 75% off for years though $39.99 was the origional price. Even 2014 is 50% off now.
COD 1 & 2...the most discount you'll see in a sale is 25%. Most Ubisoft games will also do a perfunctory 25% cut. Whereas the #1 and #2 games on my Steam wishlist (Lumines and Lumines: Advanced Pack) have not had any form of discount for the entire 14 months I've price-watched them.
And here's a hint to Matrix...I've had numerous opportunities to buy Lumines, but it's still on my wishlist. My money has always found a good deal/sale item first. So sure, as Iain said in February, your games can sit on Steam at full price 365 days a year, but that will just give you one more self-fulfilling prophecy to point to. Which, come to think of it, might have been one of the motivations to try Steam...
Though I have seen some around only the other day.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dutchman55555
quote:
ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Bottom-line, Valve isn't going to put a game on sale without the developer/publisher's consent, although they will take the initiative to ask the owner if they want it to be. That those of us who would prefer wargames to shift to Steam or other similar forms of modern digital distribution also hopes that they will enter regular discounts is only by implication, but essentially "wargames should shift to Steam" and "wargames shouldn't be selling for such high prices" are two separate and distinct arguments. If Slitherine really wanted to, they could keep Panzer Corps at the current price point forever and ever and there'd still be a significant incentive to want to buy a Steam copy over the current model.
Which is why I could not and cannot understand why M/S, upon acquiring AGEOD, yanked all their games from Steam. There was no demand or pressure (from Steam) to discount these games. The only thing I can think of is that they were a lower regular price on Steam than M/S wanted them, so to block an avenue to AGEOD games at a lower price they removed them from Steam. IIRC "price consistency" was an argument for the contraction...it would be sad if "price consistency" meant "making certain each unit sold was priced as high as possible".
What, on Steam? I have a couple of pre-acquisition AGEOD games that I bought on Steam. When in my Library if I click on the link to their Store Page it just boots me to the front page of Steam's store. Same with using the Search field on that front page...type in the names of various AGEOD titles and nothing is found.
What, on Steam? I have a couple of pre-acquisition AGEOD games that I bought on Steam. When in my Library if I click on the link to their Store Page it just boots me to the front page of Steam's store. Same with using the Search field on that front page...type in the names of various AGEOD titles and nothing is found.
If you bought anything from Steam prior to it being removed from the Store, you still own it and can download it and it'll still work on Steam ... but anyone who doesn't have it cannot buy it anymore. (EDIT: Gamersgate and GOG work the same way)
It's typical for a game to be removed from the store in cases when the publisher or the copyright changes, and then to be put back in once a new deal with the new publisher has been worked out, but for the AGEOD games to have never come back is probably indicative of AGEOD signing some kind of exclusivity with Matrix with regards to distribution.
< Message edited by gradenko_2000 -- 12/6/2013 3:51:06 PM >
"Profit margin is the percentage of selling price that turned into profit." (Profit margin) Units sold doesn't enter into it, bro.
No, it's Net Profit over Revenue. Guess what happens to the number needed for net profit when revenue goes up but costs remain static (because virtually all of the cost of a digital product is incurred in development, assuming you aren't spending on marketing)?
NPM = NP/R, where NP = R - C
Let's say I'm selling something at $25K a unit, with a fixed cost of $50K (development, digital distribution afterwards).
4 units NP $100K - $50K = $50K NPM = 50% profit
6 units NP $150K - $50K = $100K NPM = 75% profit
8 units NP $200K - $50K = $150K NPM = 100% profit
As your units sold (shipped) goes up your profit margin also goes up. To quote someone,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alchenar
I don't think you know how profit margins work. (hint: the more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit)
The more units you ship, the lower your unit price needs to be to make the exact same profit . Leave the unit price where it is and your profit increases.
I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.
I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.
The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.
That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.
It's typical for a game to be removed from the store in cases when the publisher or the copyright changes, and then to be put back in once a new deal with the new publisher has been worked out, but for the AGEOD games to have never come back is probably indicative of AGEOD signing some kind of exclusivity with Matrix with regards to distribution.
AFAIK there is no agreement with AGEOD, Matrix owns it lock, stock, and barrel...although an exclusive distribution agreement would amount to the same thing, I guess. How ironic that some here fear Matrix getting locked into one distribution network when in effect they are already there.
As for the rest I was well aware of the circumstances, Wodin stated
quote:
ORIGINAL: wodin
Though I have seen some around only the other day.
on GamersGate as it turns out. And I don't think that's possible since the Matrix contraction.
I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.
The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.
That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.
He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.
< Message edited by aaatoysandmore -- 12/6/2013 5:13:15 PM >
I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.
The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.
That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.
He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.
Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.
But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.
< Message edited by dutchman55555 -- 12/6/2013 6:53:12 PM >
I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.
The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.
That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.
He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.
Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.
But he didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.
And that remains true.
If product x cost $5 million to make then the revenue you need in order to make a profit is $5 million. That's always true. If the cost of distributing a product is effectively negligible (as it is when considering a digital product in proportion to the development costs) then the revenue needed for a profit remains constant whether you sell ten units or ten thousand. Therefore the more units you expect to ship the lower you can drop the unit price and still expect to see a profit (which matters if there are other products with which you are competing on price).
It's therefore ridiculous to just assert that the Valve take cuts into a 'razer thin' profit margin because the massive potential increase in units you can ship over steam (see the linked thread where UoC sells more units over Steam in two months than in a year of everything else combined) reduces the take Matrix/Slitherine/Developer needs to get per unit in order to see a profit.
Obviously the greater proportion of take the more profit, but you have to weigh the cut Valve takes over the increased units you'll sell via their distribution stream. That's what you're paying them for and it's why everyone makes more money in the end (provided you are actually competitive in the market). This doesn't work for all games, and if you don't take advantage of the promotion options Valve offers then it'll work for vary degrees for the games that get on Steam.
< Message edited by Alchenar -- 12/6/2013 6:59:41 PM >
But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.
The original comment being replied to was:
"Sigh... Calm down, Steam alarmists. There's not much reason for Sliterine to tie themselves to Steam; their profit margins are probably RAZOR thin as is, so why would they let Steam take a cut?"
The only way "Steam taking a cut" would be detrimental to Slitherine would be if they never sold another copy as a result of a Steam release of PzC. That's a hilarious hypothetical to assume!
I don't know what your point is anymore. You haven't disagreed with me. The point is that Valve taking a cut doesn't have anything to do with profit margins.
The point was (and is) that you have stated that the more units you ship the lower your unit price needs to be to make a profit.
That is blatantly false. If you lower your unit price (whether you sell 10 or 10 million units), you make less profit. Period.
He's talking about quantity sales. The more you sell at a lesser price because you sell more is a profit. If I sell 1 item at 10 and 3 items at 7 (because I got a boost in sales figures because I LOWERED the price) I did better selling 3 of the items @7 than I did just 1. Quantity sales at lower prices is the better way to go no matter how you "say" it.
Yes, Elmer Fudd taught me that when I was seven.
But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.
No one speaks a deep a deep a deep as clearly as I do.
But Alchenar didn't say anything close to what you're talking about. If it's what he meant, fine, but he literally said the more units you make/ship/sell, the lower your price has to be to make a profit.
The original comment being replied to was:
"Sigh... Calm down, Steam alarmists. There's not much reason for Sliterine to tie themselves to Steam; their profit margins are probably RAZOR thin as is, so why would they let Steam take a cut?"
The only way "Steam taking a cut" would be detrimental to Slitherine would be if they never sold another copy as a result of a Steam release of PzC. That's a hilarious hypothetical to assume!
And here I had just assumed the OC was being sarcastic.
ORIGINAL: Lützow Yeah, but unlike PanzerCorps the vast majority of Matrix products doesn't really fit to Steam portfolio and Matrix would cannibalize themselves if titles as WiF or WitP AE are offered with a 75% discount every now and then.
I doubt it. It would probably result in thousands and thousands of people buying the title and injection of new blood into the wargaming community. Tons of people who, having bought and enjoyed the games might now be interested in buying other titles offered.
Keeping these games in a walled garden of purposefully inflated prices with a kludgy old digital distribution system because it's a 'niche' product creates a self fulfilling prophecy where it only sells to fanatics.
War in the East, for example, is pretty damn easy to get into and start pushing counters around and I think would probably make Matrix more money priced at 30-40$ on Steam (20$ on sale), in short order, then it has made in its entire release history so far.
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Just one question.
Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??
On what basis is this fact or even probable?
If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....
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Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??
On what basis is this fact or even probable?
If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....
Repeated statistical evidence we pull together every time this topic comes around?
It's not true of all products and it's not true of all games, but even a 30 second google search will show you a few examples of people talking about the massive amount of research Valve has done into spending trends (it's why they're so incredibly rich right now). It's a fairly intuitive fact that different people put different values on a product and therefore when you drop a price (after waiting for everyone willing to buy at the higher price to make their purchase) you get money from the group that was previously unwilling to buy.
Also you need to pay attention to the fact that for digital products there isn't a per-unit cost (the argument I made above). There's just the lifetime cost vs lifetime revenue.
< Message edited by Alchenar -- 12/6/2013 8:31:36 PM >
Wonder why it is when in free market, someone does something really good, it becomes a target to be torn down and hated? ( MS,Walmart,Apple...etc) No one ever offers to come up with something better-and how would they run it... guess they would do the same thing.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would I come up with something better it when someone else already did? I can buy games DRM-free on GOG or HumbleStore or only with keycode from Matrix Games. And I haven't used a MS system outside school since Windows 98.
_____________________________
People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up. They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.
Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??
On what basis is this fact or even probable?
If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....
Because that's what plenty of people have said Steam sales have done for them? You know Steam doesn't force those discounts on publishers, right? They have control over how steep the discount is. If it wasn't working for the publishers and people making the games they wouldn't keep doing it!
I've read articles too that say sales of a title are often higher after the sale is over and the game goes back to its regular price then it was before the sale (presumably from word of mouth).
Right now these games are kinda 'hidden away'. If you aren't already a fan of wargames you're not that likely to find your way here. What do you think will happen if you take some of the high quality titles Matrix has and put them in front of an audience of seven million people at a price designed to encourage people to take a chance on them?
Matrix won't lose money, that's for sure, and you can potentially bring in tons of new people to the hobby, which will pay vast long term dividends for the hobby as a whole.
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Joined: 2/2/2008 From: England Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Alchenar
quote:
ORIGINAL: warspite1
Just one question.
Why is it that so many people state so confidently that if the price of something drops, then thousands of people will rush to buy what previously they wouldn't - and that the company selling automatically makes more profits??
On what basis is this fact or even probable?
If life was that simple then why would any company ever go out of business? Got a product? Not selling? No problem, just slash the price and all will be well.....
Repeated statistical evidence we pull together every time this topic comes around?
It's not true of all products and it's not true of all games, but even a 30 second google search will show you a few examples of people talking about the massive amount of research Valve has done into spending trends (it's why they're so incredibly rich right now). It's a fairly intuitive fact that different people put different values on a product and therefore when you drop a price (after waiting for everyone willing to buy at the higher price to make their purchase) you get money from the group that was previously unwilling to buy.
Also you need to pay attention to the fact that for digital products there isn't a per-unit cost (the argument I made above). There's just the lifetime cost vs lifetime revenue.
warspite1
Out of interest, where does the statistical evidence come from?
And you make the point - not every product and not all games. And this is the issue I have with this argument and games like WITP-AE and the like. Slashing the price does not necessarily get you added revenue because the number buying such a niche product is very limited in the first place.
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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805
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