Slitherine

quote:

A SD or VP system should not only include 41-42 regarding a German victory/blowout or Russian runaway. It should also include 43-45 to pressure the Russians if they are taking their time moving west, as well as discourage a German runaway. The German player should be rewarded for solid defensive play in later war years

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ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think we need something to put pressure on both sides! Especially we want to discourage Soviet runaways in 1941.

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ORIGINAL: morvael

But this is not a 5-minute game of Worms. I wouldn't put a year of my free time to a risk of sudden termination by missing the SD threshold by 1 point... It depends whether you enjoy just playing or winning :)

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ORIGINAL: Schmart

A SD or VP system should not only include 41-42 regarding a German victory/blowout or Russian runaway. It should also include 43-45 to pressure the Russians if they are taking their time moving west, as well as discourage a German runaway. The German player should be rewarded for solid defensive play in later war years.

Also, I'm convinced that the use of Admin Pts for unit creation by the Russians is not the way to go. It puts AP pressure/crunch on the Russians that wasn't historically there. Currently, the Russian player needs to play carefully after Nov 41 because they don't get any auto rebuilds and losing too many units creates an AP downhill runaway. Historically, the Russians just built more and more replacement units. It was a meatgrinder on a gigantic scale, but they kept on rebuilding Rifle Divisions, seemingly endlessly from the German point of view. I think a Russian player that knows they will have a virtual endless supply of units (not replacements, just unit shells), would play more aggressively and a more forward defense like they did historically. Right now, losing units for the Russian player is a major punishment, resulting IMO in less reckless Russian game play.

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

A SD or VP system should not only include 41-42 regarding a German victory/blowout or Russian runaway. It should also include 43-45 to pressure the Russians if they are taking their time moving west, as well as discourage a German runaway. The German player should be rewarded for solid defensive play in later war years.

Also, I'm convinced that the use of Admin Pts for unit creation by the Russians is not the way to go. It puts AP pressure/crunch on the Russians that wasn't historically there. Currently, the Russian player needs to play carefully after Nov 41 because they don't get any auto rebuilds and losing too many units creates an AP downhill runaway. Historically, the Russians just built more and more replacement units. It was a meatgrinder on a gigantic scale, but they kept on rebuilding Rifle Divisions, seemingly endlessly from the German point of view. I think a Russian player that knows they will have a virtual endless supply of units (not replacements, just unit shells), would play more aggressively and a more forward defense like they did historically. Right now, losing units for the Russian player is a major punishment, resulting IMO in less reckless Russian game play.

IIRC it's been said that the replacement rate in game doesn't equal the actual rate. So this fighting forward stuff is suicide. They had a pool of 14 million reservist by the invasion. By the end of June they called up 5,300,000. They could lose 100 divisions in battle and keep going. Like Halder, said "The Russian colossus...has been underestimated by us...whenever a dozen divisions are destroyed the Russians replace them with another dozen.”

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ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Why?... Because in that very example, that Russian Division would be isolated and exterminated on the next move... So no intelligent Russian player would ever expose that division in that way. You can't afford it in 41-42, if you want to have an army in 43. "


Gamer:

While I appreciate your spirit, best to have deeper understanding of the game's mechanics. Isolation and extermination takes at least 2 moves, can't be done in one move. Just saying....

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ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

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ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

The stench of German Fanbois bias is strong on this thread.]

That kind of accusation will not bring the debate forward. We all want a better game, I Think no one here wants certain victory for one side or the other.

I have played both sides extensively, but nowadays I mostly play the Soviets. I am definitely in favour of some kind of SD or VP system that discourages Soviet runaways.

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ORIGINAL: Wheat

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ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex
The stench of German Fanbois bias is strong on this thread.

Now now, we are on patch 11, and are having a good game. And YOU have 3 and 3/4 years to get to Berlin.

I apologize to the forum for my opponent, who is old and grumpy and missing his dacha in Moscow.

But the combat system that allows these ridiculous results IS a problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

This has, however, done nothing to improve the Russian attack values and now I am finding that, contrary to all the ficticious claims about massive Russian advantage due to game bias , it is impossible to get a "retreat" against German units dug in "2" level fortified positions, despite using six Corps level units in the attack after air bombardment. (The forum postings about Russians achieving 94% percent victories on 1:1 or 2:1 attacks are just pure fabrication.) The rules say that the German morale is supposed begin declining in 1943... but according to Morvael, that is apparently not functioning and the German national morale levels remain at 70 throughout the game as of the latest patch. I need not explain the consequences of the effect of the Germans maintaining their 1941 morale advantage on the combat resolution results throughout the entire game. That does not bode well for my Russian attempt to ever get as far as Berlin.

I don't honestly believe that many of you have actually played the game beyond 1942. Rather, the German Fanbois have quit if they haven't won by 1942 and the Russians have been defeated by 1942 or won only because the German player didn't know how to play the German side.

I am sorry, but I remain entirely unconvinced that this game has ANY Russian favor bias AT ALL... In fact, using the standard game settings, it is so heavily biased in favor of the German side as it stands now, that I can't see how the Germans could possibly lose. I won't quit playing the game, but if I ever feel like winning it against a human opponent, I will choose the German side to play. (And as soon as Wheat explains to me exactly the methods he uses to run the German side, I will gladly let him play the Russian side so he can "show me how it is done" with all those great Russian advantages.)

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ORIGINAL: 1jasonoz

I'd happily give the Russians their historical reinforcements in the game if it meant that the Soviets would stop simply running away and letting General mud and General Winter fight and stop the Germans. I'd also stop the initial Lvov pocket as well as that is not historical either. Give the Soviets their historical reinforcements, get rid of the Lvov pocket and let the Soviets fight forward against the Germans!

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ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I think we need something to put pressure on both sides! Especially we want to discourage Soviet runaways in 1941.

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ORIGINAL: timmyab

^Most of the Axis fuel exploits have been nerfed since that game. I can vouch that he still likes to fight forward and it still costs him, but it's a much better game for both players and more historical. It's only a matter of finding a balance. Nobody expects the Soviets to be forced to fight forward without compensation.

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ORIGINAL: loki100

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ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

This has, however, done nothing to improve the Russian attack values and now I am finding that, contrary to all the ficticious claims about massive Russian advantage due to game bias , it is impossible to get a "retreat" against German units dug in "2" level fortified positions, despite using six Corps level units in the attack after air bombardment. (The forum postings about Russians achieving 94% percent victories on 1:1 or 2:1 attacks are just pure fabrication.) The rules say that the German morale is supposed begin declining in 1943... but according to Morvael, that is apparently not functioning and the German national morale levels remain at 70 throughout the game as of the latest patch. I need not explain the consequences of the effect of the Germans maintaining their 1941 morale advantage on the combat resolution results throughout the entire game. That does not bode well for my Russian attempt to ever get as far as Berlin.

I don't honestly believe that many of you have actually played the game beyond 1942. Rather, the German Fanbois have quit if they haven't won by 1942 and the Russians have been defeated by 1942 or won only because the German player didn't know how to play the German side.

I am sorry, but I remain entirely unconvinced that this game has ANY Russian favor bias AT ALL... In fact, using the standard game settings, it is so heavily biased in favor of the German side as it stands now, that I can't see how the Germans could possibly lose. I won't quit playing the game, but if I ever feel like winning it against a human opponent, I will choose the German side to play. (And as soon as Wheat explains to me exactly the methods he uses to run the German side, I will gladly let him play the Russian side so he can "show me how it is done" with all those great Russian advantages.)

We've been over this so many times its scarcely worth answering. But here's some response:

a) first keep it polite, please. Its all too easy on this forum to label someone 'fanboy' when you don't agree with them as if that stops all debate. It doesn't ... it tends to give those so insulted a feeling of being in the right all along;
b) You can win your fights in 1941, you just need to take care to set them up and pick your spots. You are in your first PBEM Campaign and will inevitably come across things you'd wished you'd known before. Take it as part of the learning process. I'm in the same boat and stunned at the collapse of my armaments points in late 41. The AI tends to rout you out of pockets so while you take a morale hit, you don't have the same stunning hit on armaments for filling out the returning shells. So thats one I'll have to chalk down to experience and watch out for in a future PBEM;
c) Ok there is one small thing that favours the Germans post-1942. Here I have sympathy with Pelton et al, as the various swapping and upgrade bugs have been wrecking the late game for the Germans. Certainly more than offsetting the morale bug.

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ORIGINAL: Schmart

With virtually endless Russian unit shells, to prevent a huge army if they run away, what about punishing them through logistics and industry? Historically, Stalin gave the Scorched-Earth order to remove or destroy everything possible. If the Russians run away, they can't have a very effective scorched-earth strategy. They would lose food, supplies, factories, population etc. That should be the trade-off: Stand and fight and you get lots of replacements. Run away and you get fewer replacements/industry, or maybe even give the Axis more, as the captured supplies, farms, industries, population, etc would be less destroyed and more useable. A simple current coding fix might be to reduce Russian Rail capacity. If players can run away and still save most of their industry, then that's wrong and a-historical.

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ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

This has, however, done nothing to improve the Russian attack values and now I am finding that, contrary to all the ficticious claims about massive Russian advantage due to game bias , it is impossible to get a "retreat" against German units dug in "2" level fortified positions, despite using six Corps level units in the attack after air bombardment. (The forum postings about Russians achieving 94% percent victories on 1:1 or 2:1 attacks are just pure fabrication.) The rules say that the German morale is supposed begin declining in 1943... but according to Morvael, that is apparently not functioning and the German national morale levels remain at 70 throughout the game as of the latest patch. I need not explain the consequences of the effect of the Germans maintaining their 1941 morale advantage on the combat resolution results throughout the entire game. That does not bode well for my Russian attempt to ever get as far as Berlin.

I don't honestly believe that many of you have actually played the game beyond 1942. Rather, the German Fanbois have quit if they haven't won by 1942 and the Russians have been defeated by 1942 or won only because the German player didn't know how to play the German side.

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ORIGINAL: Wheat

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

This has, however, done nothing to improve the Russian attack values and now I am finding that, contrary to all the ficticious claims about massive Russian advantage due to game bias , it is impossible to get a "retreat" against German units dug in "2" level fortified positions, despite using six Corps level units in the attack after air bombardment. (The forum postings about Russians achieving 94% percent victories on 1:1 or 2:1 attacks are just pure fabrication.) The rules say that the German morale is supposed begin declining in 1943... but according to Morvael, that is apparently not functioning and the German national morale levels remain at 70 throughout the game as of the latest patch. I need not explain the consequences of the effect of the Germans maintaining their 1941 morale advantage on the combat resolution results throughout the entire game. That does not bode well for my Russian attempt to ever get as far as Berlin.

I don't honestly believe that many of you have actually played the game beyond 1942. Rather, the German Fanbois have quit if they haven't won by 1942 and the Russians have been defeated by 1942 or won only because the German player didn't know how to play the German side.

Ummm, tsk, tsk. You did NOT attack with 6 corp level units. I told you, USE 6 CORPS, plus air, sappers, artillery, decent commander. But noooooooooo. In went the doomed Russians. More statistics for Stalin. Hell, Zhukov should be dismissed....again. Snicker.

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ORIGINAL: Wheat

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

This has, however, done nothing to improve the Russian attack values and now I am finding that, contrary to all the ficticious claims about massive Russian advantage due to game bias , it is impossible to get a "retreat" against German units dug in "2" level fortified positions, despite using six Corps level units in the attack after air bombardment. (The forum postings about Russians achieving 94% percent victories on 1:1 or 2:1 attacks are just pure fabrication.) The rules say that the German morale is supposed begin declining in 1943... but according to Morvael, that is apparently not functioning and the German national morale levels remain at 70 throughout the game as of the latest patch. I need not explain the consequences of the effect of the Germans maintaining their 1941 morale advantage on the combat resolution results throughout the entire game. That does not bode well for my Russian attempt to ever get as far as Berlin.

I don't honestly believe that many of you have actually played the game beyond 1942. Rather, the German Fanbois have quit if they haven't won by 1942 and the Russians have been defeated by 1942 or won only because the German player didn't know how to play the German side.

Ummm, tsk, tsk. You did NOT attack with 6 corp level units. I told you, USE 6 CORPS, plus air, sappers, artillery, decent commander. But noooooooooo. In went the doomed Russians. More statistics for Stalin. Hell, Zhukov should be dismissed....again. Snicker.

(aside to the forum: I might lose the game but I am winning the psychological war.)

But I agree with Gamesaurus in that not many games go past 42, and thus, it gets really hard to tell how the bug fixes and tweaks will work out for most of us. I fully expect that as some have said, my army will melt away in 44 and beyond. We are using the 11 patch, but it frankly scares me to invest this much time and have the game go screwy cause in essence, we are still playtesting this monstrosity. But, Gamesaurus and I are having fun (he just sounds like he isn't) and that I guess, is what matters most to me in the end.

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ORIGINAL: rrbill

"losing assign button" for me playing German occurs when AP's are zero. Next turn it comes back, all other things equal.

The game is very enjoyable and an outcome that matches history is fine with me. Victory playing Axis is in getting some advantage over historical timeline, casualty ratios, & territory.

Regrettable that the code resorts to kludge factors to ensure expected results ( e.g., 2:1/1:1) at certain points. Are there others? It would be nice if player visible factors in some way consistently relate to unit capabilities for movement, strength, casualties, etc. What's an arm chair Field Marshall to do if the troops keep secrets?

quote:

I am finding that, contrary to all the ficticious claims about massive Russian advantage due to game bias , it is impossible to get a "retreat" against German units dug in "2" level fortified positions, despite using six Corps level units in the attack after air bombardment. (The forum postings about Russians achieving 94% percent victories on 1:1 or 2:1 attacks are just pure fabrication.) The rules say that the German morale is supposed begin declining in 1943... but according to Morvael, that is apparently not functioning and the German national morale levels remain at 70 throughout the game as of the latest patch. I need not explain the consequences of the effect of the Germans maintaining their 1941 morale advantage on the combat resolution results throughout the entire game. That does not bode well for my Russian attempt to ever get as far as Berlin.

I don't honestly believe that many of you have actually played the game beyond 1942. Rather, the German Fanbois have quit if they haven't won by 1942 and the Russians have been defeated by 1942 or won only because the German player didn't know how to play the German side.

I am sorry, but I remain entirely unconvinced that this game has ANY Russian favor bias AT ALL... In fact, using the standard game settings, it is so heavily biased in favor of the German side as it stands now, that I can't see how the Germans could possibly lose. I won't quit playing the game, but if I ever feel like winning it against a human opponent, I will choose the German side to play. (And as soon as Wheat explains to me exactly the methods he uses to run the German side, I will gladly let him play the Russian side so he can "show me how it is done" with all those great Russian advantages.)