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RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3

 
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RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 3:04:29 AM   
EHansen


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline 		At the start of the war, the standard drop parameters for the MK 13 mod 0 and mod 1 were 50 feet and less than 150 knots, and then there were 50% or more failures.

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Post #: 31
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 3:22:21 AM   
wdolson

 

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Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		If they hovered and placed the torpedo in the water like it was an egg, they probably would have still had a 50% failure rate.

Bill

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RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 3:56:46 AM   
EHansen


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Joined: 12/6/2013
Status: offline 		I found conflicting information, but it would appear that about 30% of the early MK-13 actually worked right if released correctly. The rest ran deep, erratic, prematurely detonated, sank, broke up, duded, etc.

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Post #: 33
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 6:19:36 AM   
CT Grognard

 

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From: Cape Town, South Africa
Status: offline 		As already indicated, the B5N2 Kate had a crew of three - pilot/torpedo operator, observor/navigator/bombardier, and radio-operator/gunner.

The pilot aimed and released the torpedo. There was a torpedo-launching sight inside the cockpit, with a further aiming sight on the front cowling just behind the prop.

The initial Type 91 torpedo had to be released at less than 130 knots from below 100 feet altitude. This was easier to do in the slower Jean biplane.

The new Revision 2 torpedoes first received in August 1941 were much better. These could be launched from 200 ft at 160 knots. Dropped from 800m from its target, the torpedo would hit after around 25 seconds (four seconds in the air, 21 seconds in the water).

When the Kate carried bombs, these were armed, aimed and released by the bombardier sitting in the belly.

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RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 6:45:05 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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Joined: 12/27/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Those hours invested in the Silent Hunter series haven't been totally wasted. It's hard enough aiming torpedos for a submarine, doing it while flying must be something else!

I rather think being able to shoot your fish from much closer in and having much faster control over your heading for a 0-gyroangle shot would make air-dropped torpedo attacks somewhat easier on the calculus than the submerged kind.

It's the drastically higher closure rate and the lack of surprise that really gets you!

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Post #: 35
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 9:05:33 AM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		http://books.google.fr/books?id=xxG4MKYDj40C&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=pilot+account+about+releasing+torpedo&source=bl&ots=QuIwGt7z0w&sig=eXSOl2Y9fQMQchwJ8XOQGceTUyg&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=1eLgUonNDsam0wWMiYHoAg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=pilot%20account%20about%20releasing%20torpedo&f=false

"Only the pilot release [...] the torpedo in TBM", page71
Although there are something about the bombardier ,at the end, .3 page74.

For TBM the bombardier is necessary in level bombing but not in torpedo bombing.

About the TBD, http://academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/TBD_Devastator

"A crew of three were carried beneath a single, large "greenhouse" canopy almost half the length of the airplane. The pilot, of course, sat up front; a rear gunner and radio operator took the rearmost, rear-facing seat, while the Torpedo Officer (bombardier) sat in the middle seat during flight. During a bombing run, the bombardier lay prone, sliding into position under the pilot to sight through a window in the bottom of the fuselage."

Although I think bombardier/torpedo officer wasn't use every time. Perhaps in a flight of 3 plane, the leader was in the middle plane and aim for the ship. The two others plane just have to fly in formation with the leader and release when he release.
In operation such like Pearl Harbor Jap probably used full B5N in order to have a very high hit rate and because they made level bombing too.


< Message edited by Gaspote -- 1/23/2014 10:05:53 AM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/23/2014 9:23:08 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
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From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		The third crewman always had a job on the TBF/TBM because the turret gunner's only job was in the turret. The third crewman operated any electronics on board and did any other duties. There was a bomb sight in the back of the bomb bay which the electronics guy could use, though frequently the pilot released the bombs on bombing missions as well as torpedo missions. I have read an account of VT-10 crews who perfected night bombing ships and the pilot was in complete control of bomb release.

In the TBD, the middle guy was just along for the ride on a torpedo strike. He added weight and contributed nothing.

The Jill had two gun positions, one in the rear cockpit and another tunnel gun pointing down forward of the tailwheel. I believe the middle seat guy could climb back into the rear fuselage to man the tunnel gun if he wasn't needed to bombing duties. I don't think the middle guy had any job in the Kate on a torpedo strike. I don't know if they carried them or not. They may have for something like crew unity and sharing the joy of victory or something like that.

Overall this is a poorly documented subject so we're left with a lot of speculation. Someone should ask this question as j-aircraft.com. Those guys are fanatics about every minutiae of Japanese aircraft.

Bill

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Post #: 37
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 1/25/2014 10:21:01 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		The pilot aimed the plane and delivered the torpedo. The three crew had to do with peacetime theories. The torpedo aircraft were to get the best crews due to the fact that they had the weapon that could kill enemy battleships.

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Post #: 38
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 2/2/2014 4:07:20 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		A bit more detail on this. I got an Osprey book on TBDs yesterday. It had tables for every combat mission the TBD ever flew with the mission, load, squadron, and where possible the names of the crew, the serial number of the planes, and the squadron number of the planes. I think one table has an error where the gunner column is empty and a bombardier is listed for each plane. That was for the first aerial torpedo strike by the USN flown by VT-6 in Feb 1942.

The strike on the Shoho flown by VT-5 had crews of three, but in every other case, torpedo strikes had a crew of two and bombing missions carried three crew members.

I don't have any data on Japanese doctrine, and the Avenger's third crew member had other jobs than just being bombardier, but with TBDs it looks like standard practice was to leave the middle seat guy behind on torpedo strikes.

Bill

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Post #: 39
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 2/4/2014 3:17:14 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CT Grognard

As already indicated, the B5N2 Kate had a crew of three - pilot/torpedo operator, observor/navigator/bombardier, and radio-operator/gunner.

The pilot aimed and released the torpedo. There was a torpedo-launching sight inside the cockpit, with a further aiming sight on the front cowling just behind the prop.

The initial Type 91 torpedo had to be released at less than 130 knots from below 100 feet altitude. This was easier to do in the slower Jean biplane.

The new Revision 2 torpedoes first received in August 1941 were much better. These could be launched from 200 ft at 160 knots. Dropped from 800m from its target, the torpedo would hit after around 25 seconds (four seconds in the air, 21 seconds in the water).

When the Kate carried bombs, these were armed, aimed and released by the bombardier sitting in the belly.


Just because they could drop them from so high doesn't mean that the crew did it.



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Post #: 40
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 2/4/2014 4:17:36 PM   
blueatoll


Posts: 157
Joined: 3/28/2013
Status: offline 		The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors is pretty specific about how torpedoes were aimed/launched from Avengers. They were launched by the pilot who had a rather simple leveling device, range-finder, and some other fairly basic instruments. The third member of the crew on an Avenger was a combination Navigator/Radio Operator/Bombadier/and sometimes Radar Operator. I don't remember who said it above but they are correct. Three crew Avengers were primarily for land bombing missions and close air support. Avengers were one of the first Navy planes to be equipped with radios that could directly communicate with Army radios.

These crewmen didn't fly on every mission and it was generally considered impossible to successfully bail out of a hit plane from that station.

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Post #: 41
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 2/4/2014 6:31:21 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I believe Avengers usually flew with a crew of 3 and I have never heard of anyone having trouble bailing out of the belly position. There is a lot of evidence that Devestators (TBDs) only flew with crews of 2 on torpedo missions. The TBD was such a marginal aircraft by 1942 (it was the most advanced carried plane in the world when it was introduced, but it was also one of the oldest in service at the beginning of the war) that they were probably doing all they could to try and improve performance. Dropping the 160 pounds of the third crewman on torpedo missions was probably a performance boost.

Bill

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Post #: 42
RE: Torpedo Planes crew of 3 - 2/4/2014 7:38:07 PM   
btd64


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Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		Look at the thread in this forum "Interesting Short Film". on second page.
Cheers

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