RE: Why strafing is so useless ?

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RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/5/2014 9:11:24 PM

Numdydar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

Nobody know the reason ? Dev never explain why they chose to model strafing like this ?

Did you read my post #6.

If so, please explain how, under those circumstances, what you want could be achieved. The conditions just do not exist. There are many things in the game which are, by necessity abstracted/simplified, in order to produce a commercial product which would be playable to more than 17 people on the planet.

Alfred

I understand that reason is game balance.

But I don't think improving strafing should ruin game balance.

I just think strafing could be improve in order to change a bit gameplay, even without increasing the result, just reducing the effect of flak on strafing airplanes could be great. In order to give a role to fighter in case of air superiority and for suppressing flak during bombing (it already the case but you just avoid the lose of 4 bombers for the price of 15 fighters ).

IMO not having strafing attack is like not having sweep. It's deleting one of the three main missions of fighters. I really understand that in real life it's tricky but in game,it's not tricky, it's useless.

You need to understand that the game is no longer in any kind of development that will allow this to get fixed to your satisfaction (or anyone elses). The betas are being done to fix issues and to make minor enhancements to the game. By one person who is very restricted to what he is alowed to do. Air combat adjustments of any kind are definately out of scope.

There are many factors in using planes in the game that could/should have been addressed. However, they were not. So if this one aspect bothers you to this extent then you need to play a differnt game. Otherwise you just need to accept this as the way it is and it is not going to change, ever.

(in reply to Gaspote)

Post #: 31

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/5/2014 9:23:17 PM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
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quote:

There are many things in the game which are, by necessity abstracted/simplified, in order to produce a commercial product which would be playable to more than 17 people on the planet.

Alfred

Not to mention affordable. Let's keep in mind it is a game, and not every aspect will match up with RL. It does the best it can, and IMHO that's pretty darn good.

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 32

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/6/2014 4:42:58 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

... Would strafing still have an effect on the supply of the unit being strafed?

Yes.

Any attack on a LCU, irrespective of the mode employed and how delivered will raise the subsequent supply consumption. How much depends on die rolls and whether the attacked LCU returns fire.

Alfred

(in reply to Encircled)

Post #: 33

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/7/2014 6:28:04 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Strafing with armor=0 planes is a costly mistake

And

Strafing with DUR<30 planes is a costly mistake

Which ties to someone else's statement that the IJ really just can't do this. The allies have some VERY effective planes though ...

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Post #: 34

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/7/2014 1:56:23 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1.� There is no correlation between radar presence and flak effectiveness.

Alfred�

Got a source for that? My understanding was that radar presence (under the banner of "time until target X minuites" had an impact on all aspects of air combat.

Only commenting on game treatment as OP wanted to know why game results are as they are.

Alfred

Hmm, upon rereading, I may have misunderstood the question and what was meant was did I have a source for how AE treats it.

That being so, I am somewhat surprised at the inference that I made up the statement out of thin air. I would have thought that forumites could rely upon my accuracy. It is always preferable to have a relevant dev posting answers but in their absence, there are a few regulars who, whilst not devs themselves, can usually be relied upon to be accurate.

Alfred

Don't take it personally, it seems to be a trend on this forum that incorrect information regarding the code of the game is passed around, and much of the "knowledge" of the game is based on heresay. It's the old adage that "confidence is an excellent stand-in for competence."

I, for one, was under the assumption that radar improved flak effectiveness along with all the other aspects involved.

A direct reference to the source material stops this.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 35

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/7/2014 6:13:50 PM

czert2

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so as jf player - which planes to use for stafing ? none ? and as allied ? and whih is more efficient stafing or normal level bombing (by fighters if tehy have bombs).

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Post #: 36

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/7/2014 6:53:13 PM

crsutton

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Except for low naval attack vs lightly armed ships I am saying that strafing is not a good idea to use at any time. You should do just as well bombing from low altitudes. The Allied mediums are good at it and many are designed for it but the problem is two fold. The first is you are going to lose too many to AA fire and the replacement rate for Allied medium bombers remains pitiful up to the beginning of 1945. And the second is that any bomber or fighter (no matter how good that gets caught) on the deck by a CAP trap is going to get beat to hell. Once again, you could lose a months production of mediums in one attack. Don't do it. It does not work very well anyways. Use your mediums at 6-8000 feet and use your fighters to shoot down Japanese fighters. I only use low level bombing attacks to hit shipping or undefended targets.

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Post #: 37

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/7/2014 7:24:45 PM

Gaspote

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I found out that it's due to beta patch

Comparing beta and stock game result, flak is far more effective in beta than stock.

Using 36 Ki45a and 36 ki45b, with mixed pilots (80 to 45) in 1942.

In beta patch, I lost 50 from flak and 20 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 13 planes on the ground on about 58(8 catalina, 28 P39, 16P40E, 6 beaufort).

In stock, I lost 28 from flak and 14 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 29 planes on the ground.

I didn't try to get the best result, I just leave them in airfield attack(100ft) and spam next turn but I show what I wanted to see.
In stock, these result are balanced and seems good but in beta, it's really disappointing.

From the beta notes :
26/04/2013: 1123j - Flak calculation incorrect for land units

I think I should ask michaelm about this perhaps he change it for a good reason

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 38

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/7/2014 8:25:14 PM

Jorge_Stanbury

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quote:

ORIGINAL: czert2

so as jf player - which planes to use for stafing ? none ? and as allied ? and whih is more efficient stafing or normal level bombing (by fighters if tehy have bombs).

Ki-45 Nick has armor=1 DUR=36
Also, Chinese infantry's AA is really weak, so China is a theater where strafing is relatively "safe"
that said, since I only have Nates/ Oscars there, my strafing results had been very poor as to not bother

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 2/7/2014 9:26:17 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 1:12:54 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

I found out that it's due to beta patch

Comparing beta and stock game result, flak is far more effective in beta than stock.

Using 36 Ki45a and 36 ki45b, with mixed pilots (80 to 45) in 1942.

In beta patch, I lost 50 from flak and 20 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 13 planes on the ground on about 58(8 catalina, 28 P39, 16P40E, 6 beaufort).

In stock, I lost 28 from flak and 14 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 29 planes on the ground.

I didn't try to get the best result, I just leave them in airfield attack(100ft) and spam next turn but I show what I wanted to see.
In stock, these result are balanced and seems good but in beta, it's really disappointing.

From the beta notes :
26/04/2013: 1123j - Flak calculation incorrect for land units

I think I should ask michaelm about this perhaps he change it for a good reason

No, you are wrong. That build change did not alter how flak operates.

Alfred

(in reply to Gaspote)

Post #: 40

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 6:52:38 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

I found out that it's due to beta patch

Comparing beta and stock game result, flak is far more effective in beta than stock.

Using 36 Ki45a and 36 ki45b, with mixed pilots (80 to 45) in 1942.

In beta patch, I lost 50 from flak and 20 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 13 planes on the ground on about 58(8 catalina, 28 P39, 16P40E, 6 beaufort).

In stock, I lost 28 from flak and 14 from ops loss in 2 week, destroying 29 planes on the ground.

I didn't try to get the best result, I just leave them in airfield attack(100ft) and spam next turn but I show what I wanted to see.
In stock, these result are balanced and seems good but in beta, it's really disappointing.

From the beta notes :
26/04/2013: 1123j - Flak calculation incorrect for land units

I think I should ask michaelm about this perhaps he change it for a good reason

No, you are wrong. That build change did not alter how flak operates.

Alfred

Actually flak is much stronger in the beta. It may not have changed with that build, but I'm not really adept enough at translating michaelm's wonderfully cryptic notes to know where it might have actually been altered.

This test above is probably not enough of a sample to prove the point, but it's generally known among those who've been playing the betas that flak is more effective now than in the official patch.

This is a good thing though. It's brought it closer to the Babes model of flak, and it's effectiveness is supported by the evidence of its use in the war.

Strafing doesn't and won't work very well in this game, period. Flak is working better for both sides, though.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/8/2014 7:56:43 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 8:13:35 AM

Feltan

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One point of clarification in this discussion.

IIRC, strafing is the only way to attack PT boats and Barges. Aircraft at 100 feet on naval attack will in fact work well on these targets.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 42

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 8:43:18 AM

Yaab

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I think there are several kinds of strafing attacks:

-aircaft with machine guns strafing
-aircraft with machine guns/ cannons strafing
-aircraft with machine guns/cannons/bombs strafing

against

LCU in rest/movement/combat mode
LCU in combat mode+forts

Now if you fly Oscars/Nates against a Chinese LCU which sits in a +2 terrain hex and has +2 forts and has zero AA weapons, what can you expect?

I think strafing should really be employed against LCUs in move mode which have few AA weapons. Such attack should revert LCUs to combat mode and disable their support/motorized support squads. Even Nates and Oscars should be effective in such engagements.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 2/8/2014 9:43:58 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 2:37:03 PM

Gaspote

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From what I imagine, an airfield attack at 100 feet, mean your plane aren't suppose to be engage by big guns so only 40mm less guns will shot. If your plane are intercept by CAP while in airfield attack set a 100feet, they are intercepted at 100feet. I don't think all the flak of the hex shot when plane fly at 100 feet. Even during the attack, they are a lot of guns not present because they aren't at this point at this moment protecting other area. Even if it's this case, the planes won't attack seeing so much flaks.

To resume, if there are a few flak, it won't be effective so planes will get a few loss and destroyed a lot of units on the ground.
If there are huge flak concentration, planes won't attack or try another places or abort at all. So more planes will be shot down (without losing half of the squadron) and few units will be hit on the ground or no at all.

It's what I imagine from the result of the official patch.

In beta, it's like if raid is never abort so planes run right in a flak concentration but having a lot of loss, they still it nothing on the ground like if they have aborted.

Alfred : So explain me how result can be so different ? It's not 5 planes differents, in beta, I got 2 times the loss of the stock. Just try by yourself.

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 44

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 2:49:38 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

From what I imagine, an airfield attack at 100 feet, mean your plane aren't suppose to be engage by big guns so only 40mm less guns will shot. If your plane are intercept by CAP while in airfield attack set a 100feet, they are intercepted at 100feet. I don't think all the flak of the hex shot when plane fly at 100 feet. Even during the attack, they are a lot of guns not present because they aren't at this point at this moment protecting other area. Even if it's this case, the planes won't attack seeing so much flaks.

To resume, if there are a few flak, it won't be effective so planes will get a few loss and destroyed a lot of units on the ground.
If there are huge flak concentration, planes won't attack or try another places or abort at all. So more planes will be shot down (without losing half of the squadron) and few units will be hit on the ground or no at all.

It's what I imagine from the result of the official patch.

In beta, it's like if raid is never abort so planes run right in a flak concentration but having a lot of loss, they still it nothing on the ground like if they have aborted.

Alfred : So explain me how result can be so different ? It's not 5 planes differents, in beta, I got 2 times the loss of the stock. Just try by yourself.

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

B. Just don't expect to be able to fly into a wall of AA at 100ft and not take a lot of losses. You might think it should work, but it won't. The beta makes it even less of a good idea.

C. If you like less effective flak, play the official patch.

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Post #: 45

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 4:00:44 PM

Gaspote

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

Which statements ? People say it's better why ? It the first question of the topic nobody gave me a reason.

quote:

B. Just don't expect to be able to fly into a wall of AA at 100ft and not take a lot of losses. You might think it should work, but it won't. The beta makes it even less of a good idea.

I agree, but what do you call a wall of AA ? In 1944-45 it was used by USN and work well assuming you get ships with a lot of AA guns close.
In 1942, over an airfield, they didn't keep so much AA, because they have to protect infantry unit, depots and port. AA is spread over the hex so there are no wall of AA.
In my test, it was something like 90 guns mostly small guns.

Pilots aren't stupid too and won't run in a flak concentration like I said before.

quote:

C. If you like less effective flak, play the official patch.

I'm not saying flak is wrong, just strafing is not well model. It's good to keep the bomber high but ruining fighters role isn't nice. It's call a beta patch so I think it's usefull to give my opinion.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 46

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 4:12:25 PM

witpqs

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quote:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

Which statements ? People say it's better why ? It the first question of the topic nobody gave me a reason.

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land. Also, in Babes mods (not sure if these changes have been rolled into stock scenarios yet, but they might have been) the flak devices on ships were all recalculated and normalized. That resulted in ship-board flak being much more potent and (seeming) much more realistic.

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Post #: 47

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 4:44:52 PM

Gaspote

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land.

What let you think it wasn't well model ? I admit flak isn't really effective at high alt in stock but it was not that bad at low level.

Does changing effectiveness affect all altitude so strafing have been indirectly affect ?

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 48

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 5:06:25 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

I'm not saying flak is wrong, just strafing is not well model. It's good to keep the bomber high but ruining fighters role isn't nice. It's call a beta patch so I think it's usefull to give my opinion.

Exactly. For all of the reasons those above have mentioned strafing doesn't work in game as it did in the war. This will not be something that will change. The beta is primarily a one man effort (thank you michaelm!!!

) and from what I've heard there may not be another official patch from it.

You however can mod all kinds of things that you'd like to model.

Ask in the modding forum and you'll get some help to possibly change things more to your liking.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/8/2014 6:06:58 PM >

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Post #: 49

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 5:09:24 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land.

What let you think it wasn't well model ? I admit flak isn't really effective at high alt in stock but it was not that bad at low level.

Does changing effectiveness affect all altitude so strafing have been indirectly affect ?

IMO, flak over land was trivial and at sea was even less. Now I think it is right, or as close as I can tell.

I don't really know about specific answers to your second question.

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Post #: 50

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 5:50:16 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

One point of clarification in this discussion.

IIRC, strafing is the only way to attack PT boats and Barges. Aircraft at 100 feet on naval attack will in fact work well on these targets.

Regards,
Feltan

The problem is that you do not have control over target selection and your planes are just as likely to attack an AKL sitting at a nearby base with a fat CAP traps hovering over it. You have to be careful.

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Post #: 51

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 5:58:33 PM

crsutton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

A. Better flak is good. As stated above.

Which statements ? People say it's better why ? It the first question of the topic nobody gave me a reason.

quote:

B. Just don't expect to be able to fly into a wall of AA at 100ft and not take a lot of losses. You might think it should work, but it won't. The beta makes it even less of a good idea.

I agree, but what do you call a wall of AA ? In 1944-45 it was used by USN and work well assuming you get ships with a lot of AA guns close.
In 1942, over an airfield, they didn't keep so much AA, because they have to protect infantry unit, depots and port. AA is spread over the hex so there are no wall of AA.
In my test, it was something like 90 guns mostly small guns.

Pilots aren't stupid too and won't run in a flak concentration like I said before.

quote:

C. If you like less effective flak, play the official patch.

I'm not saying flak is wrong, just strafing is not well model. It's good to keep the bomber high but ruining fighters role isn't nice. It's call a beta patch so I think it's usefull to give my opinion.

Opinion yes, but you are a bit late to the party. The move to increase the effectiveness of flak stems from five years of player input on this forum. Flak was totally anemic in the stock version of the original game, making it almost useless to upgrade Allied ship as they never shot much down anyways. As for strafing at 100 feet. It never worked well even before flak was strengthened. You have to understand that you are talking about engine tweaks that are not going to happen and if they did happen then might create a whole new set of unforeseen imbalances. Sorry, I would love to see it work myself and cried about it years ago but have learned to live with the limitations of an otherwise great simulation. To me and most others making flak more deadly was the more important issue, and one that could readily be worked out.

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Post #: 52

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 6:08:55 PM

Mac Linehan

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Gaspote - excellent question.

Gents - very illuminating discussion, I have learned much - thank you for your input.

Alfred - I always appreciate your concise, accurate and informative posts.

I strongly suspect that you have invested considerable time researching before posting; my respect and appreciation to you, Sir.

Cricket Mac

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RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 7:51:05 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

Alfred : So explain me how result can be so different ? It's not 5 planes differents, in beta, I got 2 times the loss of the stock. Just try by yourself.

If you look at the date of the beta build that had that change and then look in the beta thread in the Tech section at that date and for about two months afterward, you will see what Michael's comment refers to. I think that's what Alfred is saying. The beta change doesn't do what you say it does.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 2/8/2014 8:54:43 PM >

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Post #: 54

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/8/2014 7:54:23 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The code was changed to make flak more effective, especially over land. Also, in Babes mods (not sure if these changes have been rolled into stock scenarios yet, but they might have been) the flak devices on ships were all recalculated and normalized. That resulted in ship-board flak being much more potent and (seeming) much more realistic.

The Babes changes to flak and ASW are not in the stock scenarios. But they are available in a separate DL made available by Andy Mac. Lokasenna and I are playing a Scen 2 game with those changes added.

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Post #: 55

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/12/2014 6:35:00 AM

Yaab

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

... Would strafing still have an effect on the supply of the unit being strafed?

Yes.

Any attack on a LCU, irrespective of the mode employed and how delivered will raise the subsequent supply consumption. How much depends on die rolls and whether the attacked LCU returns fire.

Alfred

Alfred, do you mean the supply consumption is raised during the air attack or on subsequent turn? I think you mean it is raised during the air attack, because I have never seen a single LCU had its supply upped on subsequent turn, even if the LCU is an AA unit. If its raised during the air attack, then how this effect can be observed by players?

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 56

RE: Why strafing is so useless ? - 2/12/2014 9:22:06 AM

Alfred

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See the posts from BigJ62 in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2527906&mpage=1&key=supply%2Cconsumption&#2528443

Participation in combat sees the supply requirement increase. The actual daily consumption is simply determined as requirement/30. The feeding occurs at the end of turn housekeeping tasks which occur after combat.

Alfred

(in reply to Yaab)

Post #: 57