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RE: Wake Falls - 2/6/2015 11:09:13 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

What do you have at Pegu?? If I was Allies, I would have some troops prepped for this base to land and cause you considerable headaches in Burma.


There is about 500 AV there, lots of good AA, and the 2nd Tank Division is heading there right now, in case it is needed against the 4th Marines or it might head to Raheng.


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Post #: 3091
RE: Wake Falls - 2/6/2015 11:13:12 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

As stated before I think you have done a great job since the hand over but with the Allies being so far forward in Burma late 43 is a real issue.

A seaborne flanking manoeuvre on somewhere on the Malaysian coast would no doubt cause issues.

Usually when the Burma front collapses it occurs suddenly and the results are catastrophic.

Allied units move so quickly and their firepower is so strong, stopping them in anything but heavy vegetation and mountains is very difficult.

Good luck.


That invasion is the first thing I look for each turn. Don't think it will happen yet, for a while. Deathstar is at Wake, I have sunk over 50 xaps, and 10 AP & AMC. (off the top of my head).

Not discounting it, but it would be bloody as I have most of my BB strength here, while his is at Wake or on the bottom.

No, Allies will grind it out in the Jungle for a while yet. I think.

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Post #: 3092
RE: Wake Falls - 2/6/2015 11:25:35 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Most of my traps from yesterday didn't work, laying a few more, especially one at Mergui.

Worried a little bit about Fletchers raiding Rabaul, sent some CA we will see what happens...

The dirt road east of Tuang Gyi worries me, can't keep the troops in the jungle supplied. Allies have to have the same problem, Tuang Gyi can only draw 1000...will see if he keeps up the bombardments there or not.

Four BBs enroute to hit the Allied paratroopers at Trinkat. Plus the super heavies in reserve.

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Post #: 3093
RE: Wake Falls - 2/7/2015 11:50:03 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		The next day:

Allied night bombing at Rabaul.

Supply gets to Burma...

Horde of individual Pt boats at Port Blair. I need to notify the Allies this is gamey, but what is the minimum size of a pt boat task force? Groups of 3? 5? 7? 10?






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Post #: 3094
RE: Wake Falls - 2/7/2015 12:51:36 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
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Status: offline 		Some players have HR that the number of PT boat TFs at a base depends on the port size. Size 0 to 3 allows 1 TF; 4 to 6 allows 2 TF; 7 or larger allows 3 TF. No more than 12 PT boast per TF.

As an Allied player, the most I have had has been two TFs with 12 PTs each.

_____________________________


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Post #: 3095
RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 11:50:07 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Allies response to adding Giants HR....which I simply cut and paste: (thanks NYGiants!)

My main reason for using them in this manner is as scouts for larger TFs (raise the DL of your incoming bombardment group)... I considered the ops points and ammo drain as bonuses. I'm not sure how much ammo your are losing on them - especially the PT TFs as they seem to run if you point at them from on deck. They never even shot at your AMc a turn or 2 ago, and that was the only reason I sent them. I don't recall any time where you were unable to withdraw outside of air range because of running into a PT TF (unless it happens this turn). I haven't ever used xAKLs or an xXX ships as pickets - though I have occasionally tried to ram supplies into high risk areas using a single one.

Because I use them as scouts - which would mean I would need to place them along an expected axis of approach to be of any use, I don't really like the proposed HR as written. And I need PTs the most at small bases. I did some research a while back to see how they were used historically, and early in the Solomon's campaign (when numbers were few) they were used in small numbers as scouts (where I got the idea for it in the first place).

That said, I don't have an issue limiting their use in some manner. I suppose what I set up at Port Blair this past turn could be considered gamey. Can I propose

The number of PT boats at a base shall be no more than [12] at size 0 - 3, [24] at 4 - 6, [36] at 7+. and a PT TF shall be no fewer than 2 boats (unless one is sunk or there is only 1 PT based at a port). No more than 1 PT TF / hex for an ocean hex, 2 PT TF / hex for a base hex.

Let me know what you think... and change the numbers around if you think they are too big (or small).

Unfortunately, it slows the pace of the game down...so I simply said no single ship PT/MTB boats where possible and lets keep playing and we can keep discussing it.

I got burned in the Marshalls once by this tactic, and simply haven't tried anything against it since. His proposed rule of size 2 task forces won't change anything, they will make any base bombardment proof but I guess I would rather play than negotiate.

But the Allies do like single ship task forces.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/8/2015 2:54:43 PM >

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Post #: 3096
RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 1:26:31 PM   
obvert


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Status: offline 		Can you not put some single ship MTB TFs in your bases near his PT scouts so he can be equally frustrated if he tries to bombard, land or do anything in that area?

I found that as Japan if I used fast E or old DD in 70% or greater moonlight I would be very successful against the PTs. In one ship TFs maybe you can clear them out easily with some of those kinds of runs with no reaction set so they don't go chasing all over and get left out of LR CAP in the day. You can also try Oscars or other fighter at 100ft.

I don't like how the game treats single ships, and I would not use single PTs regularly. I've occasionally had one if that was all that was in the pool when i tried to build them. I prefer TFs of 4-6 boats. I think this is similar to how they were used most of the time in the war. More than that I think as an Allied commander now this give me the best shot to get a hit on something. I just a few turns back sank a DD with one TT hit from a four PT boat TF.

I'd say to him scouts are fine but just have a standard low limit for numbers of PTs in a TF since the game does allow each and every one to interact with your TFs as they run in, and that is not exactly how it would have worked in reality. Having ten combats instead of two will definitely put you at a disadvantage and he has nothing to lose using 1 VP boats like that, while you have much more limited ship and MTB boat numbers to combat this tactic.

_____________________________

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Post #: 3097
RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 2:06:46 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice Obvert.

I don't have any small pt craft...and Japan's aren't nearly as agile at PT boats, which means they sink super fast. I think I had 10 engagements on a lone PT boat back duirng the Java campaign before I finally sank it. That is a lot of supply, fuel for 1 VP.

I have tried Fighters, Fighter bombers, divebombers, medium bombers, torpedo bombers all on hitting the PT boats but nothing ever flies no matter the altitude. They will fly and attack a group of them. Naval search routinely hits them (every turn) but nothing is ever really hit.

I have had success to with the smallish ships, even DMS back in 42, but often times they encounter them and don't fight at all, but they always fight against shore bombardments. Will just have to try new things, perhaps my planes will target them in groups of two. Perhaps very narrow, low flying naval search much like as against submarines?

Just need to adapt and overcome.






< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/8/2015 3:06:57 PM >

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Post #: 3098
RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 2:09:25 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		The weakness of PT boats, other than daylight and range, is fuel. But I think they can sit out there a few hexes from a port with remain on station indefinitely.

Will have to put my thinking cap on.

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Post #: 3099
RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 4:49:00 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		I just received a much more conciliatory email from the Allies...., however, he is keen about anything that says his game play is gamey as that is the rationale behind the first Japan quitting. Well, it is a game.

I certainly have used my assets in a gamey manner --- Petes flying night CAP for example. But, in truth it is usually to counter some other odd/not modelled well tactic the Allies were using.

I sorta believe that there is a counter to every tactic just need to find them.




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RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 9:16:51 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The weakness of PT boats, other than daylight and range, is fuel. But I think they can sit out there a few hexes from a port with remain on station indefinitely.

Will have to put my thinking cap on.


They will still burn 1 hex worth of fuel each day.

The big thing about 1 ship TFs like this is the burn in Ops points.


Maybe try using your Shimakazes as 1-ship clearing TFs? They're fast... I'd only do that during high moonlight. You can also try fighters/fighter bombers on strafe.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 2/8/2015 10:17:39 PM >

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RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 10:08:17 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can also try fighters/fighter bombers on strafe.


They don't fly.


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RE: Wake Falls - 2/8/2015 11:24:30 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can also try fighters/fighter bombers on strafe.


They don't fly.




What do you mean "they don't fly".

Read this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2932352&mpage=1&key=boats�

Plenty of other threads exist on the subject of combatting Allied PT boats but this is one of the very few which has a dev commenting.

As always, one needs a good DL. Moonless nights are therefore good for PTs, a full moon is good for the PT hunters. Single ship TFs are always harder to get a good DL fix on, but not impossible.

The only reliable altitude for hunting PT boats is 100' on a naval attack. No good reason why fighters at that altitude on that mission profile will not fly at identified targets.

Would need much more precise info on your problem to identify the particular Romulan cloak employed. Info such as precise locations of PTs, location of hunters and mission profiles, weather conditions etc.

As you have mentioned on several occasions in this AAR, there is always (well at least 99.99% of the time) a counter to any enemy tactic.

Alfred

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Post #: 3103
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 12:50:14 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

What do you mean "they don't fly".



Thanks, Alfred.

I am not nearly precise enough the AAR.

In groups I don't have a problem sinking PT boats, have had Nicks and Zeroes strafe them straight to Davy Jones locker. Heck, I even have had night bombing runs made against them.

Simply put, I cannot get the planes to prosecute attacks against single ship PT boat task forces.

My guess is the detection level on a single ship PT boat is very low. I would have to go back and look, but most times, say the majority of times, the screen just lists 1 ship spotted (see graphic above). Not much in the way of details, and this points to a very low detection level.

It is not surprising then that my Oscars don't take off even though they are set at 100 foot naval strike max range (no drop tanks).

I am going to try a very narrow, limited, naval search rather low, backed up with fighters on strafing naval attacks and perhaps some Betties thrown in on low naval too or Nicks.

Can't do it this turn, since I have 5 BB bombarding Trinkat and those pesky paratroopers there with the hopes of kicking them back into the Ocean before the situation deteriorates more and I have the Oscars and more working over the Airborne.





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Post #: 3104
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 1:08:12 AM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Sept 22, 1943 (maybe it is the 23, lost track)

I now have 98 repaired factories working on the Ki202. I should get the engine, with current research in May to June of 44. I am thinking about getting another factory working on researching it to speed things up even more, but I am not sure that I will need to. Time to do a little arithmetic.

Night bombing of Rabaul again by the Allies. Just letting the AA guys handle it, although I have some Irving NF on their way. They are taking their time, transferring a base, resting, transferring. No hurry as the pilots are all still catching up.

Quiet day, relatively. Allies resting their bombers in Burma, only bombardment attacks there. Some bombing of Trinkat's airfield; but I have landed 250 AV of the heavy 4th Infantry Division there with no loss, flying in dribs and drabs more.

Those paratroopers are going to get hit, hopefully, by two BB groups (5 in all) screened by two CL/DD surface groups. Then they will be bombed at very low altitudes and also strafed, then the 4th will attack. Lots of floats on recon to walk those heavy BB guns in on target.

Trashed another Chinese corp, and bombed several more.

In a complete screwup on my part, I lose another CA this time in the Solomons. They were doing fast transport and got stuck out exposed. Wave skimming assault bombers reached out and touched me. I have used these guys in Downfall against m-m just in this manner...not too pleasant to be on the business end of something like 8 fifty caliber machineguns and then getting bombed too. We will see if I can save the ship. Fingers crossed.

Burma got a hefty dose of supplies, plus an E escort landed 28 hits on a Yank sub they tried to interfere at Mergui. Will stop unloading supplies and send the rest to Sabang, worried he will send some destroyers in on a night time dash and all my ships will be at Trinkat. Allies have ships bound for Trinkat (?) behind Port Blair an Iboat shoots and misses on a xak, and can't target a LST.

Midget subs and carriers left port today. I am sending the very slow minisub to Ceylon, while the fast minisub is going to Port Blair (where there is a juicy xAP in port). We will see how the work,hopefully no mine hits.


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Post #: 3105
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 12:29:01 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		General Notes:

Marianas Defense:

Bought out another Infantry Division, it will head to Tinian very shortly. I am figuring on needing 400 fighters now to put up a credible defence of the Marianas, and in the next 30 days I get 5 Sentais of Zeroes (size 27) which will all go there a mix of A6M5cs and Georges for the big airfields. I feel comfortable I can keep the Marianas safe as long as the KB is around, but I expect he will start doing something to pull the KB out and away.

So far Guam, Saipan have divisions, soon Tinian. Each base has some ART, AA, 20mm machine cannons at the smaller bases. I am short on coastal guns, most of my base forts are further forward in the upper Solomons and CentPac or in Burma/SRA. I also want to get a Tank Regiment on the big four islands, they will come from China.

Ground reinforcements are starting to show up in the arrival que....and they are needed everywhere.

Luzon: PaxMondo always said you need to amass 3000 AV to hold against the AI; I suspect you cannot hold it no matter how much AV you put in there especially in a non-stacking limit game. At this point, not sure how I would get close to 3000 AV there unless I strip China dangerously thin.

Bonins: Flying troops in, almost one full division on HahaJimi, the other have Naval guards and assorted supply troops. At least the Allies can't take anything by SST.

Kuriles: A full division and Independent Brigade are out there with lots of support troops. With Winter I don't expect much action here.

Hokkaido: I am starting to fly some restricted troops into here from the HI. It makes a nice target for a hail mary attack.

Burma: The great exodus has begun very well. Most of the ENG and AA units are out and back close to Raheng. AA will go to main airbases and oil. Engineering can be used all over. Two Tank Regiments are headed from HI to Indochina slated for Chiang Mai area.

Trinkat: Deliberate attack today by the 4th ID supported by planes and ships. It is too much to ask for that I win in one day, those paratroops will fight in the jungle for a while I suspect.

OZ: Still holding on to bases there...no new Allied movements at all. Quite hard to explain, except for the trashing I gave the Aussie Army back in 42.

Marcus Island: needs work. Forts are fine, gotta get the engineers off and replace with some ground pounders.




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Post #: 3106
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 7:52:52 PM   
Lowpe


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No night bombing.

Allied destroyers, as expected make a night run into Mergui looking for cargo ships. Nobody home, they only get two hexes away and are attacked by a sentai of torpedo bombers who all miss. NavB skill only averaged 60 and they were attacking at 10K. Hard to hit destroyers like that.

Kongo eats two torpedeos on a bombardment run at Trinkat. The five BB cause minimal losses, but high disruption among the paratroopers and with a bad die roll I get a 1-1 and don't kick them off the island. Paratroopers are malused for disruption, supply, fatigue. So I will keep trying.






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Post #: 3107
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 7:56:43 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Trinkat, the bigger picture.

Kind of a fun place to fight, but perhaps what is most fun is neither is bringing overwhelming force and bludgeoning their way thru.

100 transports at port blair, and it looks like all of the single ship pt boats are gone as promised.

I need to figure a way to keep supply down at Port Blair and now Car Nicobar, but it does look like the Allies have a some type of carrier, av, ake?, behind Port Blair. I will have to see if the Langley is sunk.

I think every Allied bomber and and fighter made passes against poor Mergui this day. 50 Jugs sweep; Lightnings, Mitchells and Liberators. Oh my. A few hit the troops at Trinkat. Once again, I am defending by running away. Planning something...always planning something.




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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/9/2015 9:02:46 PM >

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RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 10:48:28 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Car Nicobar:

I am sweeping Car Nicobar at night with 4 task forces: two CL/DD groups and 2 straight DD groups. I expect he will move in PT boats, perhaps landing craft to get some more forces there, or he may simply fly them in. I have about 100 bombers on airfield strike at low altitudes at night. Maybe something will actually fly and attack.

The BB are heading back to resupply, other forces taking their place for now. Another deliberate attack at Trinkat...keep the pressure up.

I would like to nail his support task force hiding behind Port Blair...have a few thoughts I put into action. Take a few days to get assets in place.


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Post #: 3109
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 11:11:06 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Luzon: PaxMondo always said you need to amass 3000 AV to hold against the AI; I suspect you cannot hold it no matter how much AV you put in there especially in a non-stacking limit game. At this point, not sure how I would get close to 3000 AV there unless I strip China dangerously thin.



You're not going to hold there. You can only stall there. There are too many islands and bases to hold, and if you try against a human you will find that 3k AV trapped and lost.

You can have enough to make him fight a long time there, and Manila and Clark are well protected from Shore bombardments which will help for a while. Think about your first and second layers now, and build the bases for the third, but he has a lot of territory to cover before getting to the PI.

PS - Posted in your opponents AAR about my thoughts on single boat PTs. Don't like it.

< Message edited by obvert -- 2/10/2015 12:12:03 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 3110
RE: Wake Falls - 2/9/2015 11:53:09 PM   
Sangeli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Kind of a fun place to fight, but perhaps what is most fun is neither is bringing overwhelming force and bludgeoning their way thru.

Yea, because it then becomes a full campaign instead of a single battle with a decisive moment. I also like the dynamic of the escalation of force. Neither side is willing to commit the most valuable powerful forces; just enough to have the edge over the other guy. This creates a situation with frequent naval skirmishes where each side is just jockeying for the slight advantage in the campaign. It's a good place for this sort of fighting too given the lack of large bases in the area so there is a large no-mans land where naval forces can go at each other without too much worry of LBA interference. Interested to see how how long you an keep the Allies stalled in the Andamans.

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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:13:08 AM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ground reinforcements are starting to show up in the arrival que....and they are needed everywhere.

Luzon: PaxMondo always said you need to amass 3000 AV to hold against the AI; I suspect you cannot hold it no matter how much AV you put in there especially in a non-stacking limit game. At this point, not sure how I would get close to 3000 AV there unless I strip China dangerously thin.



You know my thoughts regarding Luzon.

From your last screenshot of China, it looks like the war there is starting to wind down. Once you get Chungking surrounded and start work on reducing it, you can move troops out as you please. I'd also look at optimizing your garrisons: you can free up quite a number of big units with careful management of the Mongolian and RGC units.

At the end of the day, the 3000 AV required to hold Luzon will come as reinforcements in late '44 or early '45 - look at the reinforcements for the first three months of 1945 alone. Quite a lot are restricted, but you shouldn't have much left to spend PP's on by this point. All you need to do is make sure you hold Luzon long enough to get those troops there.

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Post #: 3112
RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 11:25:02 AM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		Can we get a screenshot and details on your defense of northern Sumatra?? If he gets over there, it will put Palembang under 4e bomber range.

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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:35:14 PM   
Lowpe


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Allies bomb at night Rabauls. Irving-s are there,but they don't fly. They just arrived and were probably seeing to their quarters.

Light cruiser forces find and sink two xaks, one each at Trinkat and Car Nicobar and engage 3 pt boat squadron. A few sub attacks and counters but the Allies freshly mine Trinkat and two destroyers run into them and sink. Allies are very good at mine warfare.

There are two more encounters at Car Nicobar but no fights. Which is a shame, since it was most likely 10 ship LCT bringing lots of support and supply. Car Nicobar now has Warhawks, 60 of them, plus plenty of base support types.

Another 1-1 attack at Trinkat, and the xak dropped off enough supply to feed the paratroopers there.




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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:36:04 PM   
Lowpe


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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:36:36 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Skirmish at Car Nicobar, no hits.




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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:37:37 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		Four task forces, two encounters, and not one shot fired at the LCTs that landed these extra troops at Car Nicobar. Oh my.




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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/10/2015 1:37:51 PM >

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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:38:47 PM   
Lowpe


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Post #: 3118
RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:44:38 PM   
Lowpe


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Status: offline 		In other distressing news Yank subs torpedo a cargo ship, and a CS convoy arrives in Bangkok, one xak and one E, and the xak is promptly sunk by air attack. Forgot about them, my bad, no reason to really be going there anymore. I wonder if the 3000 supply offloaded?

Good news: haven't found any yet.

Well, it seems pretty clear to me the Allies are going to push in the Cent Pac and Burma/Sumatra area. Move the KB to stabilize one area and he will hit the other. Very dangerous times indeed.

Given my horrendous start, I had figured to get to Jan 44 with Palembang still producing and that is still my goal...


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RE: Wake Falls - 2/10/2015 12:47:35 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

You're not going to hold there. You can only stall there.

I am not going to hold anywhere! What makes you think I can?


PS - Posted in your opponents AAR about my thoughts on single boat PTs. Don't like it.

Thanks, case closed...he won't use them where possible.


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Post #: 3120
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