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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 11:29:33 AM

Lowpe

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The two destroyers sent out to tangle with whatever, are now heavily exposed in south of Kushiro, a little west. Can they react into something better for I fear their lives are numbered in minutes.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 11:33:30 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Thats the weirdest TF composition I have ever seen.

The AOs in the invasion TF?

What is an AR doing here!!!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 11:42:34 AM

Lowpe

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Allies park their CVEs that I can see right now, one hex east of Kushiro, and my land based air attacks target it.

600 fighter CAP, but we do get one Myojo and one Betty to get thru, but both miss....

My CAP trap over Ominato only nets a few Avengers.

And the Allies are ashore!

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Post #: 4593

RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 11:45:25 AM

Lowpe

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At Kunashiri, our defenders took it on the chin during the daytime bombardment.

All these troops unloaded in one pulse in the day.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 11:46:56 AM

Lowpe

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At Shikotan we are in a little better shape...

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 11:55:19 AM

Lowpe

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Big picture...

Depot divisions all activated, unfortunately nothing can go to Hokkaido as they are Eastern Command etc....

My two General Defense Divisons are at Haha Jimi, being flown back...

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Post #: 4596

RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 12:06:19 PM

Lowpe

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Well, today is the day.

I will be able to sweep all those bases, three, that should get the CAP reacting all sort of strange ways. I could bomb his ground troops but they have AA so it will have to be high if I do...

I am simply going to attack with everything I have and we shall see where the chips fall out at.

He will attack and if he gets lucky he will get Kunashiri and Kushiro. Maybe they can for one day, maybe not. Then he has all those cargo ships full of planes to unload on me.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 12:28:03 PM

pws1225

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Let the scrum begin!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 12:48:58 PM

Lowpe

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More thoughts,

Even if Kunashiri falls, it is currently a 0 level airfield...so I have some time there.

He has his carriers in coastal hex, but I didn't see much of a penalty in his protective
CAP. 600+ fighters to overcome. Will it continue on in that hex? Move out during the night and move back in?

Will he withdraw his landing ships or continue to land? Past history tells us he sticks around and unloads for a long time.

He will probably throw up a line of destroyers to the west to shield his landing beaches and deathstar. Probably lots of smaller task forces.

He only has a handful of subs supporting the operation.

He bombarded with several battleships, so they are starting to get low on ammo, as are the very few cruisers. His primary anti surface TF seems to be the one 2BB force under Willis, and a CL/10 Fletcher force...

I was thinking of sending the KB behind him towards Eotorofu, but now I think it should meet the mini-KB in deepwater near Hirosaki. I don't want it to react out of the deepwater, so the KB will have to follow another TF. Same with the mini KB.

I am also thinking of perhaps holding back my BBs on day one, so that his surface engagements are against ships that can avoid more readily his torpedo threat. And then sending the BB in on the morrow? I would hate to lose the Musashi to a bunch of Fletchers like I did the Yamoto.

Thoughts appreciated, it will be a while to flip this turn.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 1:06:03 PM

obvert

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You can't sweep your own bases. Even if his troops are there. You can LR CAP which will be more effective anyway.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 1:17:29 PM

Lowpe

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I thought I could sweep his forces? Hmm. Shucks.

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Post #: 4601

RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 1:44:51 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I thought I could sweep his forces? Hmm. Shucks.

You can only if they have taken a base or are on land away from a base. Maybe in a day or two.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 2:40:57 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More thoughts,

Even if Kunashiri falls, it is currently a 0 level airfield...so I have some time there.

He has his carriers in coastal hex, but I didn't see much of a penalty in his protective
CAP. 600+ fighters to overcome. Will it continue on in that hex? Move out during the night and move back in?

There is no penalty for CVs in a coastal hex, only a base hex (50% reduced air missions)

quote:

Will he withdraw his landing ships or continue to land? Past history tells us he sticks around and unloads for a long time.

He will probably throw up a line of destroyers to the west to shield his landing beaches and deathstar. Probably lots of smaller task forces.

He only has a handful of subs supporting the operation.

He bombarded with several battleships, so they are starting to get low on ammo, as are the very few cruisers. His primary anti surface TF seems to be the one 2BB force under Willis, and a CL/10 Fletcher force...

I was thinking of sending the KB behind him towards Eotorofu, but now I think it should meet the mini-KB in deepwater near Hirosaki. I don't want it to react out of the deepwater, so the KB will have to follow another TF. Same with the mini KB.

I am also thinking of perhaps holding back my BBs on day one, so that his surface engagements are against ships that can avoid more readily his torpedo threat. And then sending the BB in on the morrow? I would hate to lose the Musashi to a bunch of Fletchers like I did the Yamoto.

Thoughts appreciated, it will be a while to flip this turn.

I like your thinking about the BBs. They will be effective in clean up ops even more than in a melee with a bunch of small ships. You need some power though too so maybe the CAs can punch through. The Iowas are tough but even they run out of ammo. After a few days and air strikes they'll even be out of 5 inch gun ammo.

He has a lot of support ships too though and seems to be counting on taking bases and reloading. If he does he'll have no ops for battle the following day and you can strike the ports and sink those AE/AKE/AD/AR. The key is wearing down his CV CAP so a few big days are ahead!

This set-up doesn't look good for the Allies, but if it's a mistake you have to prove it. That's tough to do and he may get 1-2 bases tomorrow into Allied hands so the most important thing is that he doesn't get too much of an LBA CAP. He may have brought air groups on the TFs which would be sweet to sink as well. What is the closest air base in the Aleutians under Allied control?

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

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Post #: 4603

RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 3:05:54 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More thoughts,

Even if Kunashiri falls, it is currently a 0 level airfield...so I have some time there.

He has his carriers in coastal hex, but I didn't see much of a penalty in his protective
CAP. 600+ fighters to overcome. Will it continue on in that hex? Move out during the night and move back in?

There is no penalty for CVs in a coastal hex, only a base hex (50% reduced air missions)

quote:

Will he withdraw his landing ships or continue to land? Past history tells us he sticks around and unloads for a long time.

He will probably throw up a line of destroyers to the west to shield his landing beaches and deathstar. Probably lots of smaller task forces.

He only has a handful of subs supporting the operation.

He bombarded with several battleships, so they are starting to get low on ammo, as are the very few cruisers. His primary anti surface TF seems to be the one 2BB force under Willis, and a CL/10 Fletcher force...

I was thinking of sending the KB behind him towards Eotorofu, but now I think it should meet the mini-KB in deepwater near Hirosaki. I don't want it to react out of the deepwater, so the KB will have to follow another TF. Same with the mini KB.

I am also thinking of perhaps holding back my BBs on day one, so that his surface engagements are against ships that can avoid more readily his torpedo threat. And then sending the BB in on the morrow? I would hate to lose the Musashi to a bunch of Fletchers like I did the Yamoto.

Thoughts appreciated, it will be a while to flip this turn.

I like your thinking about the BBs. They will be effective in clean up ops even more than in a melee with a bunch of small ships. You need some power though too so maybe the CAs can punch through. The Iowas are tough but even they run out of ammo. After a few days and air strikes they'll even be out of 5 inch gun ammo.

He has a lot of support ships too though and seems to be counting on taking bases and reloading. If he does he'll have no ops for battle the following day and you can strike the ports and sink those AE/AKE/AD/AR. The key is wearing down his CV CAP so a few big days are ahead!

This set-up doesn't look good for the Allies, but if it's a mistake you have to prove it. That's tough to do and he may get 1-2 bases tomorrow into Allied hands so the most important thing is that he doesn't get too much of an LBA CAP. He may have brought air groups on the TFs which would be sweet to sink as well. What is the closest air base in the Aleutians under Allied control?

I think Kunashiri will fall, maybe I will get lucky, but at least it is level 0 AF, and 1 Port. So if he reloads there, he has to disband into port the AKEs, and then move ships to reload them from? So today he takes the base, tomorrow at the latest. Create a horde of PT boats, unless the port is damaged to be below a size 1 port. On the turn after capture move the AKEs set to auto disband, and move the ships in to rearm. So there should be a good gathering of surface ships that day.

And once he takes the base that frees up sweeps and kamikazes.

Attu is size 4 and 30 hexes from Shikotan and Kunishari.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 3:10:52 PM

MrKane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I thought I could sweep his forces? Hmm. Shucks.

So, being in you place I would start sending kami or bombers, one squad per day at max alt with heavy escort of good fighters. It should work like sweep against his flattops fighter power.
Something like Sentai K-43 Kami escorted by 4 - 5 Sentais of Ki-84/K-43-IV.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 3:18:41 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKane

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I thought I could sweep his forces? Hmm. Shucks.

So, being in you place I would start sending kami or bombers, one squad per day at max alt with heavy escort of good fighters. It should work like sweep against his flattops fighter power.
Something like Sentai K-43 Kami escorted by 4 - 5 Sentais of Ki-84/K-43-IV.

Very Interesting. I did do that last turn...with well escorted Betties arriving at 30K. But I am not sure what the altitude of the fight was at. But that definitely sounds like a great plan for a Helen Squadron.

Will definitely do it. Many thanks!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 4:08:10 PM

JocMeister

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And don�t panic!

Seriously. Its going to take some work but I think this is a VP gift for you.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 4:18:38 PM

Lowpe

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Well, I am a little!

I have all my leftover air groups (ones and twos) catching up to the parents, started to assign air squadrons attacks.

I think the air strategy will be to set up targeted strikes on the landing bases with as much as I can. Fly LRCAP over these bases avoiding the current deathstar hex. Which means Kushiro can get hit very hard, Shiktoan and Kunashiri less so.

I am having a Sally squadron bomb -- escorted by Georges at high altitude to act like a fighter sweep. (thanks Mr. Kane). This will hopefully get the deathstar's CAPs attention so that the strikes at the other bases have better chances of getting thru. If the deathstar reacts to my carriers west of Hokkaido, it will react into a base hex Kunashiro, diluting their strength, and also where my greatest attacks are going in.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/21/2015 5:19:29 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 5:26:28 PM

JocMeister

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I�m not sure I agree with you on hitting the landings rather then the CVs...He already got the bulk of his forces ashore. All the valuable shipping (APA/AKAs) will already have unloaded everything and will leave during the night. Left will be only xAKs and xAPs with BFs and other support troops. Even if you sink every single ship nothing will have changed. Some supply and support gone. Sure. But all he will do is head back to the Marianas, reload the APA/AKAs with more troops and supply and come back.

If you can inflict a massive allied CV defeat those troops already ashore including whatever he lands this turn will be doomed without even a sliver of hope. Not only that but you will also set him back 6-12 months. 600 CAP is not a deathstar and its far, far from impregnable. With a 600 CAP he is probably flying with a high CAP percentage which means his pilots are getting tired, morale is lower and the CAP will have little staying power during multiple strikes.

Go after the CVs. Hitting the landings at this point is a waste. Everything important has already landed.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 5:47:07 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I�m not sure I agree with you on hitting the landings rather then the CVs...He already got the bulk of his forces ashore. All the valuable shipping (APA/AKAs) will already have unloaded everything and will leave during the night. Left will be only xAKs and xAPs with BFs and other support troops. Even if you sink every single ship nothing will have changed. Some supply and support gone. Sure. But all he will do is head back to the Marianas, reload the APA/AKAs with more troops and supply and come back.

If you can inflict a massive allied CV defeat those troops already ashore including whatever he lands this turn will be doomed without even a sliver of hope. Not only that but you will also set him back 6-12 months. 600 CAP is not a deathstar and its far, far from impregnable. With a 600 CAP he is probably flying with a high CAP percentage which means his pilots are getting tired, morale is lower and the CAP will have little staying power during multiple strikes.

Go after the CVs. Hitting the landings at this point is a waste. Everything important has already landed.

I am just horribly afraid of not penetrating the deathstar cap, but I tend to agree with you. Will ponder some more.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 6:05:45 PM

JocMeister

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To be completely honest with you. Without a full KB to deliver the coup de grace your chances arn�t that good. But you certainly have a fighting chance. If you don�t try he will just be coming back in a couple of weeks with more troops, planes and supply and repeat that until he gets his first level 9 AF operational. After that you only have 3-6 months left before your industry will be in ruins.

Sooner or later you are going to have to try for his CVs. He will only get stronger the longer you wait. He is taking a massive gamble with this. He has a lot more to lose then you do!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 7:33:49 PM

Lowpe

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Well, I finished my turn. Threw the kitchen sink at him, except for the battleships. More on the way for tomorrow.

Expanded the airplane builds again...this will be ugly.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 7:42:22 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

To be completely honest with you. Without a full KB to deliver the coup de grace your chances arn�t that good. But you certainly have a fighting chance. If you don�t try he will just be coming back in a couple of weeks with more troops, planes and supply and repeat that until he gets his first level 9 AF operational. After that you only have 3-6 months left before your industry will be in ruins.

Sooner or later you are going to have to try for his CVs. He will only get stronger the longer you wait. He is taking a massive gamble with this. He has a lot more to lose then you do!

I don't He does not need level 9 AF to destroy the IJ industry ... now large portions will be exposed to B17 and B24 as well
as B26 .. even P39's have bombs .. One key is supply .. the Allies need a major port that is functional to unload
the supplies to build the infrastructure .. constant harassment with submarines and the route should be apparent ..

Just delaying the supplies for building will be helpful at this point ...IMHO ..

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 8:09:25 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Well, I finished my turn. Threw the kitchen sink at him, except for the battleships. More on the way for tomorrow.

Expanded the airplane builds again...this will be ugly.

One thing is to confront him head on .. but I think the Allies can out attrite you ... like the North vs. the South ..
Another strategy is to draw his forces away and let him make the Adm Halsey mistake .. he has to have long supply
lines full of ships between some point and the Home Islands ...put a KB force out there and find that LOC and he
will have to respond to you and then move the BB's in .. a Leyte Gulf move that does not have the same problems
the IJ had like a reluctant commander out guessing himself

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 5/21/2015 9:09:56 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 8:30:41 PM

Lowpe

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Thanks, Crackaces.

I put a free division on to try and take Marcus...

I have kept my search up, and so far no more ships coming down the pike yet.

I have over 2200 planes heading out tomorrow. How many fly and how effective they are is anyone's guess.

I feel a lot better with my destroyers and cruisers running in, they are sure to cause some havoc. Even created some more MTBs at Kushiro, and managed to disband the others stuck at Kunashiri without fuel.

Shikotan is a (o) level port. Kunashiri is (1) port. And Kushiro is a 3(2) port.

Hopefully, I can do some damage tomorrow, and keep it up.

Flying in troops to hold Kushiro, and also Shikotan because of range.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 9:18:07 PM

Lowpe

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Ok, strategy wise.

I put myself in the Allied shoes for a minute, and felt that he would keep the deathstar concentrated where it is at as it gives great coverage to the landing beaches. Maybe he moves during the night and moves back, but I think he will stay concentrated and very close the landings. Since I am always wrong, he will probably do something else.

I have the KB and Mini KB north of Hirosaki, 6 hexes from Kushiro and 7 from the current deathstar. With a major piece of luck, he will react one hex into Kushiro to close distance and that will give me a fighting chance as CVEs don't react.

I took Mr. Kanes advice and have a group of Helens bombing from up high with Georges escorting. Hope that works.

The KB is set to strike at maximum range. The Hyuga is with them, so add another 22 Rufes to the defence, along with another CS.

Other than that everything is set to strike the 3 invasion beaches, but excluding the current deathstar hex. I put up LRCAP at all three beaches. I am hitting all three with naval strikes at all sorts of altitudes. In addition a few smaller squadrons are attacking one hex short of Kunashiri in hopes of further distributing his CAP. All this to try and get the CAP to react in different ways.

2200 planes all told. Plus more flying in.

I chose this strategy, because it seemed like the best chance for my carriers to live one day, but still make a strike. Without my carriers I can't really attack his line of supply. If he moves his deathstar to the east closer to the KB (without entering the base hex), then I suspect I will lose my KB, but at least he will fly into a lot.

There are 7 cruiser/destroyer task forces heading into the bowels of his invasion force. The smallest is 3 ships the largest 5.

One fresh TF of MTBs spawned at Kushiro, and they are the fast guys. Again, I put a good Captain in charge.

I have almost all my subs crossing one hex behind the current deathstar position so as to stay in deep water. 2 Midgets survived and are heading to Kushiro.

I think Shikotan will hold. Doubtful on Kunashiri, but with forts and good terrain maybe but will need a lot of luck. Kushiro is the prize, and I suspect he will shock attack. He likes shock attacks. I might be able to hold, certainly I am flying in troops left and right, but it all depends on the forts, my tanks, my naval interdiction and the die roll, and if he bombards. I think he is worried about its growing strength, as he sent some of the deathstars planes at it bombing. He may do the same thing again today.

I have a Helen squadron almost full to the brim with LowN pilots. Working on getting more, simply forgot to upgrade a squadron to Frances for now. Perhaps tomorrow.

I like the depot divisions, but with 35 morale and not attached to General Defence it will be a while before they are useful.

I seriously thought about setting normal range for everything, but simply felt that since so much of my strength comes from Land Based Air, I needed to be a little tactical.

Here is hoping!

Thanks, everyone for your comments and suggestions.

Much appreciated, even if I didn't take your's today Joc. I was sorely tempted.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 9:41:45 PM

Rio Bravo

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Lowpe-

This is exciting!

Good luck!

Regards,

-Terry

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-Bret (James Coburn); The Magnificent Seven

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/21/2015 10:35:29 PM

mind_messing

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My lone suggestion is to see if you can't spare a pair of destroyers or E-class ships to patrol far east of the American fleet. There will be plenty of ships, both cripples and ships headed back to rearm, trying to flee the battle area. Make sure there's something from the IJN to see them home safe!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 4:00:44 AM

Lokasenna

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This whole op of his confuses me, beginning with the sighting towards the Bonins. What was/is he thinking?

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 10:32:33 AM

Lowpe

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Jan 19, 1944

During the night it looks as if tactically I was correct, the Deathstar stays in place one hex east of Kushiro, but the CVE's move one west to cover the Kushiro landings....

My MTBs seem to be the best thing going for me, even unarmed they cause damage.