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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: Unorthodox

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RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 12:08:55 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I'd say 90 percent is on the Honshu. The problem is when I throw 1500 planes at him, I lose 1000 and for no real gain. I have done it two or three times now. Everything goes in fragmented and gets shot down. Tired of throwing a away thousands of planes.
M
y kamikazes are busy training up from 55 to 70.

I know it really sucks. But if you don�t do anything you have already lost. Right?

You have to keep trying and hope for a miracle. Chances are slim at best but you are running out of time where you actually CAN do something. In a couple of months time you won�t be able to any longer because supply will be gone and your factories in ruins.

Go read Eriks AAR. He put up a very effective defense right up until the end.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 5071

RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 12:31:03 PM

Lowpe

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I have forgotten Mr. Kane's excellent advice about flying high altitude level bombers at the Deathstar with heavy fighter escorts to act like sweeps. My bad.

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Post #: 5072

RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 3:43:29 PM

Lokasenna

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Try torpedoes

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Post #: 5073

RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 4:00:12 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Try torpedoes .

I did once. One Sentai of Frances escorted by several hundred Oscars. 7 Planes survived the run in with the CAP, and all missed.

So far, Judy and Myojo kamikazes seem best at penetrating CAP. But I have to wait to get 70 plus lowNaval pilots.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 5074

RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 4:07:44 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Try torpedoes .

I did once. One Sentai of Frances escorted by several hundred Oscars. 7 Planes survived the run in with the CAP, and all missed.

So far, Judy and Myojo kamikazes seem best at penetrating CAP. But I have to wait to get 70 plus lowNaval pilots.

I'm wondering if two successive days of massive strike packages would do it. His CAP has to get worn down at some point. What about subs? And if you do succeed in wearing down his CAP on day 1, KB on day 2...?

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Post #: 5075

RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 5:02:13 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Try torpedoes .

I did once. One Sentai of Frances escorted by several hundred Oscars. 7 Planes survived the run in with the CAP, and all missed. Which makes me scared to throw surface ships in at him...I always seem to guess wrong.

So far, Judy and Myojo kamikazes seem best at penetrating CAP. But I have to wait to get 70 plus lowNaval pilots.

I'm wondering if two successive days of massive strike packages would do it. His CAP has to get worn down at some point. What about subs? And if you do succeed in wearing down his CAP on day 1, KB on day 2...?

I have a dozen subs chasing him, just seem to miss with most each turn.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/9/2015 6:02:55 PM >

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Post #: 5076

RE: Unorthodox - 6/9/2015 5:58:25 PM

vicberg

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Can you afford to wait? His deathstar is out of land based air covverage. Take it out and you have a *chance* to cutoff Hokkaido. Throw everything at it.

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Post #: 5077

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 1:10:27 PM

Lowpe

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Feb 11, 1944

Allies bomb Tokyo, and try Mitchell assault bombers for the first time. Why they were flying at 17K, other than to draw the CAP up that high is beyond me, but we shoot down a half dozen. It does draw the CAP up, and the low level attack scores many hits.

For the day we shoot down 11 B24s and 6 Mitchells, for 6 Nick and 6 Irving losses.

As always, the first day after moving a NF squadron it won't fly. Makes juggling the NFs more difficult.

I produce 7 NF a day, and have 117 Irving Sa in the pool, but only 5 Nicks which started production last month.

Deathstar moves in; and I neglected to move a troop transport carrying AA & Engineers which gets trashed. A five hex strike by the Deathstar.

So the consensus is to hit the Deathstar...not sure where it will go now.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to vicberg)

Post #: 5078

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 4:45:11 PM

Lowpe

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Turn is away, and there are three possible locations that the Deathstar is likely to go. Direction one, 1500 plane attack, Direction two and and three 18 plane Kamikaze strike with Zekes. This is a test, since the Zeke can fly higher than the Corsair CAP they might all get to make runs, they will suffer from AA, but still it might work.

Not sure how much damage a Zeke with two 60kg can do to an Essex, but you never know, and as far as experiments go it is rather inexpensive. Probably 65 average Low Nav in those 18 planes. The Deathstar most likely will see a High Altitude strike escorted hopefully by Georges (good attack range). The Helens are going in at 30K or so, while the Georges are escorting at 41K, hopefully they will be able to dive on the Corsairs.

Also sweeping Hokkaido, setting up to sweep Guam and Andamans next turn. Moved subs in to try and capture downed flyers.

The strike at Hokkaido also features a well escorted Betty strike on the BBs gathering there.

Bought out an excellent 43 IJA Infantry Divison, is on trains and should arrive at Fusan shortly. I cheated and paid a fraction of the cost by transferring into a free Chinese HQ (the 11th Air Flotilla I think...seems really cheesy).

Plus subs and all the usual hustle and bustle.

Tomorrow a new 42 plane Army fighter squadron shows up; over the next 30 days I get close to 1000 planes.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 5079

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 5:00:20 PM

JocMeister

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IMO flying at 1-2k ALT is pretty makes the engine go a bit nuts. I did some testing on this a while back (although not very thorough) and it seemed the low alt makes it almost impossible for CAP to intercept. Detection time gets so low the CAP even at the same altitude rarely can intercept.

As I said I havn�t tested it enough to say something definitive but I would avoid flying under 4k.

PS. How come your AA don�t wreck him?! I took some horrendous losses to AA even at 15k.

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Post #: 5080

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 6:50:10 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

IMO flying at 1-2k ALT is pretty makes the engine go a bit nuts. I did some testing on this a while back (although not very thorough) and it seemed the low alt makes it almost impossible for CAP to intercept. Detection time gets so low the CAP even at the same altitude rarely can intercept.

As I said I havn�t tested it enough to say something definitive but I would avoid flying under 4k.

PS. How come your AA don�t wreck him?! I took some horrendous losses to AA even at 15k.

I guess I don't have enough of the 20-25mm AA guns there. Only 14. I will fly some in. I had put the 20-25mm autocannons on the islands (Bonins, Okinawa) because I thought you wouldn't dream of bombing a city with a big airfield low because of balloons. But, balloons only come into play versus airfield attacks, and they pretty much are worthless anyhow.

Should have thought about flying some of the autocannons in last turn.

The AA is potent enough to drop several bombers from 7 to 16K; but doesn't seem to do well very low. That might be pretty realistic, must be hard to put the big AA guns on low and fast targets.

There is a fair amount of 12.7 and 7.7 AA present, but it probably just bounces.

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Post #: 5081

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 8:16:26 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

IMO flying at 1-2k ALT is pretty makes the engine go a bit nuts. I did some testing on this a while back (although not very thorough) and it seemed the low alt makes it almost impossible for CAP to intercept. Detection time gets so low the CAP even at the same altitude rarely can intercept.

As I said I havn�t tested it enough to say something definitive but I would avoid flying under 4k.

PS. How come your AA don�t wreck him?! I took some horrendous losses to AA even at 15k.

I guess I don't have enough of the 20-25mm AA guns there. Only 14. I will fly some in. I had put the 20-25mm autocannons on the islands (Bonins, Okinawa) because I thought you wouldn't dream of bombing a city with a big airfield low because of balloons. But, balloons only come into play versus airfield attacks, and they pretty much are worthless anyhow.

Should have thought about flying some of the autocannons in last turn.

The AA is potent enough to drop several bombers from 7 to 16K; but doesn't seem to do well very low. That might be pretty realistic, must be hard to put the big AA guns on low and fast targets.

There is a fair amount of 12.7 and 7.7 AA present, but it probably just bounces.

Are you sure balloons don't happen against all attacks on the hex?

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Post #: 5082

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 8:27:18 PM

vicberg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

PS. How come your AA don�t wreck him?! I took some horrendous losses to AA even at 15k.

If playing with DBB, that would be suicide. I'm taking 50% damage for my Sallies at 23k.

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Post #: 5083

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 8:39:20 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Are you sure balloons don't happen against all attacks on the hex?

I haven't seen a balloon message yet....now, he isn't hitting me with a ton of planes yet (under 10 I think so far).

I have seen balloon messages on low altitude raids on airfields, and maybe ports too. They can damage 4Es, but don't seem to actually destroy any, but I am sure they add some to write offs eventually.

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Post #: 5084

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 8:41:32 PM

Lowpe

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Open question:

Does Japan have any subs (sst) that can carry troops?

I know IRL, the I1 was converted to carry a submersible barge (landing ship) and made a few runs with it dropping supplies and picking up wounded and was at least in the planning stages for commando style raid that eventually got scrubbed.

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Post #: 5085

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 8:43:46 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

PS. How come your AA don�t wreck him?! I took some horrendous losses to AA even at 15k.

If playing with DBB, that would be suicide. I'm taking 50% damage for my Sallies at 23k.

Big difference between a Sally and a B24!

I think the solution is more 20mm autocannons, problem should disappear when the IJA gets their TOE ENG upgraded in 3 months or less.

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Post #: 5086

RE: Unorthodox - 6/10/2015 9:41:56 PM

Lowpe

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Looking forward to this turn, I am very interested to see if the Zeke can bypass the Deathstar CAP; also I actually have hopes that some of my plane strikes will get thru and draw blood.

Of course the Allies will get their licks in, but that is how it should be.

Anxious to air lift in more 20mm AA to Tokyo...even if that means a day delay in the buildup on Hokkaido.

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Post #: 5087

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 2:30:16 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Are you sure balloons don't happen against all attacks on the hex?

I haven't seen a balloon message yet....now, he isn't hitting me with a ton of planes yet (under 10 I think so far).

I have seen balloon messages on low altitude raids on airfields, and maybe ports too. They can damage 4Es, but don't seem to actually destroy any, but I am sure they add some to write offs eventually.

I feel like I've seen it happen, but what do I know?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Open question:

Does Japan have any subs (sst) that can carry troops?

I know IRL, the I1 was converted to carry a submersible barge (landing ship) and made a few runs with it dropping supplies and picking up wounded and was at least in the planning stages for commando style raid that eventually got scrubbed.

No, Cargo capacity only. Unsure if you can "squeeze" troops into them like you can on xAKs and such.

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Post #: 5088

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 11:26:38 AM

Lowpe

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Feb 12, 1944

No night bombing. Japan bombs at night Muroran and damages the airfields there.

During the day we sink a DE and a DD around Hokkaido, a new arriving Allied transport fleet guarded by 200 fighters on CVE is heading towards Hokkaido.

The Deathstar misses the large air attack by 1 hex, misses the Zeke Kamikazes by 2 & 5 hexes, but is attacked by Georges and 3 Helen Kamikazes. The 45 Georges lose 8 planes or so (for 6 or so F6Fs), but 2 out of 3 Helens get thru to make their one way trip (and miss). This gives me much hope for the large attack.

I will try again to nail the Deathstar this turn...although I was tempted to go for the transports arriving. Probably have another day to try for them.

Allies shock attack on Hokkaido, 3 Marine Div, 5 Marine Tanks, plus other Divisons, and they get a 1-1, but we hold. Although we lose a fair amount of troops, the main combat troops and tanks are still in good shape as the losses came primarily from a hoard of Engineering units. Being reinforced today be 250 more AV, and we will continue to try and hold them.

The Allies deliberate attack on the Bangkok/Moulmein road, and we hold here as well. One of his divisions (an Indian) was knocked down to 40AV; in two days the fresh 4th Division arrives which should allow time for some of the other divisions to fall back and recover. Also sending another tank regiment here.

A Jack sweep was the only group to fly, and they get shot to pieces by souped up Spitfires. Georges sat idle. Hokkaido has some serious bad weather...

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/11/2015 5:28:27 PM >

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Post #: 5089

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 12:07:49 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
No, Cargo capacity only. Unsure if you can "squeeze" troops into them like you can on xAKs and such.

I have tried, and they don't seem to pick anyone up. But then again sub transport of troops was really changed to avoid sub invasion silliness and it might work in better conditions.

You need a port, the bigger the better. You need to have control of the air (how that is measured I don't know).

If the troops aren't parachute, my understanding is they have to be in move mode. And they need a port and air control at the port they will disembark at.

I have tried using my SSTs to pickup stranded equipment, but the equipment was simply too large or the port too small. Or perhaps I didn't have air control.

I will keep trying to figure it out as it seems I should be able to do something with them than just haul supplies.

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Post #: 5090

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 12:13:40 PM

Lowpe

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Interestingly enough, I just saw another Japanese player use Zekes as Kamikazes at 39K. No Allied CAP present, but the Zekes had an impressive hit rate on two Battleships. I don't believe mentioning this violates any fog of war for either of those two players, since it was in the combat text report which as I understand it is identical for both players). This is heartening to see, and I like the Idea of flying a dozen or so kamikazes to raid with.

I have gone and converted another smallish Zero squadron to kamikazes.

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Post #: 5091

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 1:48:27 PM

Lowpe

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Trying again this turn. If at first you don't succeed try, try again.

Fine tuned the kamikaze strikes again.

I am taking a page from Obvert, and using my best planes to escort the strikes in (George, Tony, Frank) in addition to the Oscars. I am also sending them in at every altitude from 1000 feet to 38500.

Cross your fingers, need a good day.

Flew in more 20mm auto cannons into Tokyo, should get 24 more, but they won't be there if Tokyo gets bombed tonight.

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Post #: 5092

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 2:40:09 PM

Lowpe

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If I can knock out a carrier or even just start to wear out the CAP over the deathstar, I am prepared to launch a second day of attacks on the deathstar with even more planes and maybe send in the KB.

I am really not looking forward to rebuilding all those squadrons...

I have no clue where the Deathstar will end up, But he really could end up anywhere from Port Arthur to Daito to Amoy. Would be nice if he tried to bypass Fusan....I have seen that happen in other another game.

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Post #: 5093

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 2:48:37 PM

Lowpe

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I went back and checked, it seems I am dropping almost 10 B24s a day when they fly, Three times the replacement rate...and it must effect their morale. I have noticed I am able to really almost shut down the higher altitude bombing but when he drops to 2000 then the bombers hit -- hopefully the 20mm autocannons can at least damage the beasties.

In the early days of the B24 strikes, I had less AA and he probably had better pilots with good morale and they hit a lot better.

Tomorrow I am going to try another experiment, a 1000 foot strike with Oscar Kamikazes, but escorted way up high with fighters. It would be interesting to see if the fighter escort would get a chance to dive on the Allied fighters as they shot the Oscars down low.

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Post #: 5094

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 4:15:25 PM

Lowpe

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I just realized I went that whole turn without a picture! My bad...

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/11/2015 5:23:30 PM >

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Post #: 5095

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 6:43:09 PM

mind_messing

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You're going through hell, keep going!

Mix/max your kami attacks, and vary altitudes between days as much as you can. No pattern to the altitude of your strikes.

If he's smart, he'll try to tailor his CAP to meet your strikes. Make this difficult and risky for him.

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 5096

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 9:46:37 PM

Lowpe

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Feb 13, 1944

Allies surge three or four task forces into Fusan...not a single mine hit, not a single coastal gun hit. I lost a lot of cargo ships, which I figure are gone pretty much anyhow but I would like to hit something in return.

Maybe during the day I put a destroyer or two down.

Deathstar cap flies right by my escorts (I had hundreds with my best pilots and frames) and only 7 planes make an attack on the carriers. That is probably an exaggeration.

I did have some Oscars sweep ahead, and he lost probably 25% of his fighter CAP, well probably less with FOW. But I can do it again today with even more, much more.

Will try again tomorrow. Throwing in all the Kamikazes, the surface ships, all his escorts have run out of fuel or ammo on my convoys. Surely something will hit...high, low, and medium. He did lose a fair number of carrier fighters.

Over in Hokkaido, Allies shock attack again, some of the Marine divisions are below 75 in AV, but he manages to force almost all my troops to retreat.

I really don't mind the cargo ships, a lot of 3200 capacity guys, but he did get and sink some nicer ships, not any tankers I don't think, and none with troops on them.

Perhaps the most disheartening attack of the day, was the smallest attack - when a little less than a dozen Zekes Kamikazes, flying in at 38.5K got shot down by the CAP. I guess you can't fly over CAP anymore. I think 2 made runs and missed... (probably not a bad thing I guess - not being able to flyover CAP).

On the bright side, the Allied 4Es attacked the empty runways at Ominato, and a sweep went off on Hokkaido dropping a half dozen or more Allied fighters including Lightnings. Plus quite a few Allied task forces are scattered all over the place and the deathstar cap is weaker, and got to be getting heavily fatigued.

And also on the bright side, I am making almost 3000 planes a month. Just a bummer watching 70 skill (not experience) bombers miss. I had one really abysmal attack, it was 14 Lilly divebombers on 5 destroyers that were dead in the water, they got one or two hits. Hopefully, my surface ships will take care of some of this come this turn.

I pretty much just put everyone on attack with a little search and flew them at max range with altitudes varying by airfields. Since a lot of the planes have different strike radius, it may spread the CAP way out, and perhaps my luck will turn. One of the low attacks I put with a high escort, I wonder how that will turn out?

I would gladly trade 3x or 5x the losses (in cargo ships) if I can nail his carriers. .

I flipped the turn fast, I might be able to really hurt the Allies this turn, but the way my luck has been running....I guess it isn't luck, but poor play on my part.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/11/2015 11:10:06 PM >

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Post #: 5097

RE: Unorthodox - 6/11/2015 9:47:56 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You're going through hell, keep going!

Mix/max your kami attacks, and vary altitudes between days as much as you can. No pattern to the altitude of your strikes.

If he's smart, he'll try to tailor his CAP to meet your strikes. Make this difficult and risky for him.

Going all in again today...we will see what happens.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 6/11/2015 11:13:28 PM >

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Post #: 5098

RE: Unorthodox - 6/12/2015 1:28:03 AM

Lowpe

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New top pilot...probably not much longer for this world. If he can get to 81 then he earns a re-assignment to night fighting squadron....he will have to trade is his George for an Irving Sa.

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Post #: 5099

RE: Unorthodox - 6/12/2015 2:20:37 AM

ny59giants

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Have you checked the cruise speeds of your air groups from each AF?? If there is too much difference in this then you will get lots of fragments at the target.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 6/12/2015 3:21:17 AM >

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