Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Auto Victory is checked for each turn, commencing on 1 Jan 1945, and finishing on turn 1634 aka end of March 1946.  The goal of the Allied player is to get an Auto Victory before 31 August 1945 because after that date an Auto Victory is not a Decisive Victory.  Anything less than a Decisive Victory means the Japanese player has performed better than the Allied player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Auto Victory is checked for each turn, commencing on 1 Jan 1945, and finishing on turn 1634 aka end of March 1946.  The goal of the Allied player is to get an Auto Victory before 31 August 1945 because after that date an Auto Victory is not a Decisive Victory.  Anything less than a Decisive Victory means the Japanese player has performed better than the Allied player.

Doesn't the manual say that it's 1/1/1946 before the AV is not a Decisive Victory? Or is it 9/1/45 - 12/31/45 is a "Marginal victory" and 1/1/46 and beyond is a draw?

Also, I thought the scenarios went to May 1946... I'll have to re-read.

quote:

Allied decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Allied marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPs
Japanese decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Japanese marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPS
Draw if above not achieved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Your opponent as got himself into a slugfest as I have previously mentioned .. I do wonder if he will ever find out
if the Southwest corner of Shikoku is running lower on supplies ...? If he does I would expect a shift in tactical
dynamics ..

Right now, as long as your supplies on the Home Islands hold out, the Allies are in a situation that in the end might
lead to an IJ victory despite an invasion of Honshu ..The Allies have to achieve 2:1 and everyday they exchange 1:1
is time they don't have to get the extra VP's

It's not only about capturing bases with VP multipliers .. it is about managing the cost of that achievement ..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The Game will be over Jan 1, 1945...and there is a real possibility he can finish the game here in 44.

But until then, we fight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The Game will be over Jan 1, 1945...and there is a real possibility he can finish the game here in 44.

But until then, we fight.

Is that by agreement already?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The Game will be over Jan 1, 1945...and there is a real possibility he can finish the game here in 44.

But until then, we fight.

Is that by agreement already?

I am not going to play past auto victory. Never talked to about it, but I always assumed game is over then.

The VP ratio is 1.82 to 1. How can I possibly keep it there for the next 5 months? He will get the ratio by simply continuing what he is doing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

Allied decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Allied marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPs
Japanese decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Japanese marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPS
Draw if above not achieved.

To be consistent with the others, the ratio in the bold one needs be reversed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Very difficult but not 100% guaranteed he will get it to 2:1. That last bit is harder to get than you realise.

You do need to keep up the denominator.

1. Means no reckless use of aircraft on offense. On the defence your aircraft scoring is helping you, not the Allies.

2. Ensure you get full credit for base ownership. Base VPs are only awarded if the base is properly supplied. If in the red no VPs from that base get counted.

3. On land fight where your device loss ratio is less than 4:1. If you can achieve a loss ratio of 3:1 you will actually reduce the current Allied VP ratio.

The real VP containment problem arise if he switches back to strategic bomb your industry. That was always the problem after he landed on Hokkaido.

Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Very difficult but not 100% guaranteed he will get it to 2:1. That last bit is harder to get than you realise.

You do need to keep up the denominator.

1. Means no reckless use of aircraft on offense. On the defence your aircraft scoring is helping you, not the Allies.

2. Ensure you get full credit for base ownership. Base VPs are only awarded if the base is properly supplied. If in the red no VPs from that base get counted.

3. On land fight where your device loss ratio is less than 4:1. If you can achieve a loss ratio of 3:1 you will actually reduce the current Allied VP ratio.

The real VP containment problem arise if he switches back to strategic bomb your industry. That was always the problem after he landed on Hokkaido.

Alfred

Yep, I think a return to strategic bombing for a month or two will do it. Which seems likely if we end up a an entrenched Japanese defense with a stalled Allied offensive.

This turn I am dropping some aerial mines, perhaps as many as 200 on the Allies hoping to nail some CVE at night.

Also have some squadrons on naval attack, attempting to nibble at the edges of the Allied fleets.

Moving into position some surface raiders to go hunting in out of the way places like Perth, Indian Ocean, etc.

Hopefully a skirmish or two versus the Allied raiding destroyers, too.

Worked on the Iboat groups a little too, hoping to hit his merchant ships where there might be a chance of survival.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njp72

Yep tough days I'm afraid. I believe the key to my undoing in my previous game was the loss of key ports and the subsequent point loss for future ship builds. That hurt me more than strat bombing especially Nagasaki and Hiroshima. :-(

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Ah, the Victory Conditions. I always have to reread the section to get the order right as it is easy to confuse the order.

1. At the conclusion of the scenario there are 5 victory levels:

Allied decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Allied marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPs
Japanese decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Japanese marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPS
Draw if above not achieved.

This is the basic structure and caters for short and full length campaign scenarios which may range from a couple of weeks to 4+ years.

3. The basic victory level structure of 1 above is modified as follows:

(a) if 3 atomic bombs are dropped by the Allied player, the victory level moves one step in favour of Japan
(b) if the game ends in 1946 solely because time has expired, the victory level moves two steps in favour of Japan
(c) if the game ends after 31 August 1945 because Auto Victory was triggered, the victory level moves one step in favour of Japan

All three modifiers are cumulative. Hence what may otherwise have been a decisive Allied victory can be modified to become a marginal Japanese victory.

4. In operation this is how the victory levels would be assigned in these "fictional" scenarios.

(a) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Decisive Allied Victory is awarded.
Right, this makes sense.

(b) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Auto Victory (the mercy rule) is triggered on 4 Feb 1945 with Allied 2:1 in VPs. A Decisive Allied Victory is awarded.
Still follow.

(c) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Two A-Bombs are dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Decisive Allied Victory is awarded.
Still following...

(d) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Three A-Bombs were dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Marginal Allied Victory is awarded (one step shift towards Japan).
Yep, still with you.

(e) scheduled scenario end date is 31 March 1946. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Marginal Allied Victory is awarded (one step shift towards Japan).
Wouldn't this be three steps towards Japan, with modifiers 'b' and 'c' being triggered? Wouldn't this be a Marginal Japanese Victory?

(f) scheduled scenario end date is 31 March 1946. Three A-Bombs were dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Marginal Japanese Victory is awarded (three step shift towards Japan).
As with the scenario just above, wouldn't this be a Decisive Japanese Victory with all 3 modifiers being triggered for a total shift of 4 steps?

(g) scheduled scenario end date is 31 March 1946. Two A-Bombs were dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.73:1 in VPs. A Decisive Japanese Victory is awarded (three step shift towards Japan).

From the above one can see why Bullwinkle and I have been saying that in the campaign scenarios, which all end sometime in 1946, the Allied player can only achieve a Decisive Victory if they can trigger Auto Victory, having used a maximum of 2 A-Bombs, no later than 31 August 1945

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Historically the Allies achieved the Potsdam unconditional surrender ultimatum (the Emperor's position was an understanding only) in September 1945 with only 2 dropped A-Bombs and with most of the non Home Island component of the Japanese Empire conquered. The Allied Decisive Victory level accurately reflects the historical outcome provided it occurs within historical parameters. Achieving it outside the historical parameters means the Allied player performed worse than his historical counterparts and was outplayed by his Japanese game opponent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Sorry for bringing this up again, but I'm still confused . Edited quotes to bring the parts together, my confusion/comments in bold. Underlined the parts that I got lost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Ah, the Victory Conditions. I always have to reread the section to get the order right as it is easy to confuse the order.

1. At the conclusion of the scenario there are 5 victory levels:

Allied decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Allied marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPs
Japanese decisive if 1.75:1 in VPs
Japanese marginal if in range of 1.25:1 to 1.74:1 in VPS
Draw if above not achieved.

This is the basic structure and caters for short and full length campaign scenarios which may range from a couple of weeks to 4+ years.

3. The basic victory level structure of 1 above is modified as follows:

(a) if 3 atomic bombs are dropped by the Allied player, the victory level moves one step in favour of Japan
(b) if the game ends in 1946 solely because time has expired, the victory level moves two steps in favour of Japan
(c) if the game ends after 31 August 1945 because Auto Victory was triggered, the victory level moves one step in favour of Japan

All three modifiers are cumulative. Hence what may otherwise have been a decisive Allied victory can be modified to become a marginal Japanese victory.

4. In operation this is how the victory levels would be assigned in these "fictional" scenarios.

(a) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Decisive Allied Victory is awarded.
Right, this makes sense.

(b) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Auto Victory (the mercy rule) is triggered on 4 Feb 1945 with Allied 2:1 in VPs. A Decisive Allied Victory is awarded.
Still follow.

(c) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Two A-Bombs are dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Decisive Allied Victory is awarded.
Still following...

(d) scheduled scenario end date is 1 June 1945. Three A-Bombs were dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Marginal Allied Victory is awarded (one step shift towards Japan).
Yep, still with you.

(e) scheduled scenario end date is 31 March 1946. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Marginal Allied Victory is awarded (one step shift towards Japan).
Wouldn't this be three steps towards Japan, with modifiers 'b' and 'c' being triggered? Wouldn't this be a Marginal Japanese Victory?


Sorry, typo on my part and I should edit my point 1 to avoid confusion. The Draw result is actually the mid-point of the range of outcomes. IOW, in descending order it is Allied Decisive, Allied Marginal, Draw, Japanese Marginal, Japanese Decisive.

Only modifier (b) applies. The game ended in 1946 with no A-Bombs having been dropped (thus no modifier "a") and the VP ratio never reached 2:1 (hence condition 2 of my original post never came into play and thus no modifier "c"). The only difference between example (e) and example (a) is the former ended in 1946 and the latter ended in 1945.

Thus the 2 shift in favour of Japan converts what otherwise would have been a Decisive Allied Victory into a Draw.



(f) scheduled scenario end date is 31 March 1946. Three A-Bombs were dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.8:1 in VPs. A Marginal Japanese Victory is awarded (three step shift towards Japan).
As with the scenario just above, wouldn't this be a Decisive Japanese Victory with all 3 modifiers being triggered for a total shift of 4 steps?


Only modifiers (a) and (b) apply. The VP ratio never reached 2:1 so condition (2) of my original post never applied and thus modifier (c) does not come into play.


(g) scheduled scenario end date is 31 March 1946. Two A-Bombs were dropped. Time expires with Allied 1.73:1 in VPs. A Decisive Japanese Victory is awarded (three step shift towards Japan).

From the above one can see why Bullwinkle and I have been saying that in the campaign scenarios, which all end sometime in 1946, the Allied player can only achieve a Decisive Victory if they can trigger Auto Victory, having used a maximum of 2 A-Bombs, no later than 31 August 1945

Also, I'd like to add what I think is a fairly likely scenario: the Allied player achieving 2:1 for "auto victory" sometime in 1946. This implies that it would only move one step towards Japan, and be essentially the same as achieving "auto victory" after 8/31/1945.


Correct. Auto Victory is essentially a "mercy rule". One would not really get any benefit if baseball applied the mercy rule only after two outs in the last innings, so similarly in AE a 2:1 VP ratio achieved after the historical result is pretty meaningless. I presume there are good coding reasons why 31 August 1945 rather than the historical 15 August 1945 surrender acceptance is used within the game.


So dropping 2 or fewer A-bombs, a 2:1 victory point ratio, and the ratio being achieved (therefore ending the scenario early) after 8/31/1945 but before 03/31/1946 would result in a Marginal Victory for the Allies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
Historically the Allies achieved the Potsdam unconditional surrender ultimatum (the Emperor's position was an understanding only) in September 1945 with only 2 dropped A-Bombs and with most of the non Home Island component of the Japanese Empire conquered. The Allied Decisive Victory level accurately reflects the historical outcome provided it occurs within historical parameters. Achieving it outside the historical parameters means the Allied player performed worse than his historical counterparts and was outplayed by his Japanese game opponent.

I agree. Decisive = Allies win an AV within the same time period and A-bomb constraints. Marginal = Allies win, but slightly less so than historically.