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- 2/4/2003 1:30:24 AM

rlc27

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Gob, that is one B/A looking cat...looks like a vampire-cat.

:eek:

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Post #: 31

- 2/4/2003 2:01:03 AM

Goblin

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Bernie found it, lol. If you have not seen the PURRsecution thread, you really should, its hilarious! :D

Goblin

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32225

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Post #: 32

- 2/4/2003 7:41:15 AM

Figmo

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About going to get people - I think they still have 5 people in the Space Station that will run out of air in 6 months.

Hmm - what to do?

Figmo

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Post #: 33

- 2/4/2003 11:41:45 AM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Figmo
[B]About going to get people - I think they still have 5 people in the Space Station that will run out of air in 6 months.

Hmm - what to do?

Figmo [/B][/QUOTE]

As I recall from a few NASA briefings:

The space station has it's own "escape pod" (a standard pre-shuttle capsule) that would enable the station crew to "abandon ship" and return safely.

With the current air scrubbing ability in the station, breathable air is not the problem. Food would start to run out around June though.

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Post #: 34

- 2/4/2003 12:25:46 PM

Voriax

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Well, the space station is largely supplied via Russian 'Progress' automated cargo transports. Latest was supposed to be launched either Sunday or Monday.
And their 'escape pod' is actually Russian 'Soyuz' craft that they are normally using in ferrying crew members to the station.

3 man ship, afaik. So I guess they need to send one up either automated or manned with just one man to get whole crew away.

Voriax

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Post #: 35

- 2/4/2003 12:30:21 PM

tracer

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Actually, there is a Russian space shuttle (copy of US shuttle) attached to the space station that is functional and can serve as a lander. It went up carrying one of the first loads of material for the station and was used as a living area. And regarding supplies, unless they cancelled it (and I don't know why they would) a supply rocket was scheduled for launch from Russia the day after the accident.

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Post #: 36

- 2/4/2003 8:19:06 PM

Voriax

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Ummm...Tracer..the Soviet space shuttle 'Buran' did only one flight, and that was something like 15 years ago. Dunno where that ship is rusting now, probably in Baykonur launch centre.

As for it being a copy..well, I'd guess some copying was done but Buran didn't have main engines, the liftoff power came from the huge 'Energia' rocket. As you just can't take plans of a US shuttle, leave out the engines and build it I'd say they did most of the design by themselves.

And yep, the supply ship should dock today. However I read from a newspaper that they will eventually have to evaquate the station. Reason being that Russians have only 2 Soyuz and 3 Progress ships ready. And they'd need 8 Progress launches this year alone to replace missing shuttle flights. The source of this article was a Russian newspaper, though the name escapes me at the moment.

Voriax

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Post #: 37

- 2/4/2003 9:32:16 PM

tracer

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Ummm...Tracer..the Soviet space shuttle 'Buran' did only one flight, and that was something like 15 years ago. Dunno where that ship is rusting now, probably in Baykonur launch centre.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm, that's what I get for believing what I hear on TV. :D

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Post #: 38

As much as... - 2/4/2003 10:27:59 PM

Orzel Bialy

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we would like to say that there were other alternatives...the truth is, with what was known and what could be actually be done...there wasn't much anyone could really do.

The flight was not equipped for space walks...as much as people sit here and think "well, they should have done one regardless" its a far harder task than just jumping into a suit and going out the door.

AFAIK almost all of the flights where space walks were done the robotic arm was utilized to hold onto the astronaut...and that same arm was not part of the shuttle bay equipment this time around.

The only "non-arm" space walks that I know of ( one I know of for sure, maybe two or three??? ) were test runs of new "walk-packs" and they were not on the shuttle either. Not to mention, none of the crew were trained for space walks.

Then there was the fact that there is no tile repair kit as part of the shuttle inventory. They had one for a while, but stopped taking it up because of the fact that they came to the conclusion that tile repair in space was not feasible in most circumstances...since there are 24k tiles to choose from and being able to modify them in space would mean extra tools and training.

And as for going to the space station...the different altitudes and orbits seem to have ruled that out. The Shuttles have only so much fuel for their thrusters...and its orbit is usually designated by what course it takes after lift-off, since it utilizes the thrust from that to obtain its position. Once in orbit, the shuttle is pretty much limited to using its thrusters to maintain altitude and trim within in narrow window of space.

So, let's say you have a go at all these options anyway...ok they space walk, they find the damage...they even somehow manage to change their orbit and direction...and make it to the space station. Now what?
Seven extra people are now in a craft that isn't ready to have 10 people in it yet.

Voriax is correct about the Russian Buran, it is sitting in some yard in Russia wasting away...having never flown after its maiden voyage. The escape pod on the station is a three man capsule...and what do you do if you use that and the station has an emergency? It would be a couple months at best before another flight from either Russia or NASA could get another one up there...plus more supplies.

Then there are the other Station Issues....like, could the scrubbers currently on board be able to support the extra CO2?...and just what was the supply situation?...and what would be sent up on the next rocket or shuttle...another pod, food or other things, like repair supplies? After all, a rescue mission would not be ready over night...even at a rushed pace, that would only endanger that ship and crew as well.

As for the supply rocket that went up...it was already packed and ready to go....and it's cargo couldn't be modified on the pad. It isn't like packing up the SUV...you can't just go to the driveway, open up the door and throw in some more sh*t folks. It's a complex matter to get something ready to go into space.

In reality....the only thing that could have possibly saved them was if NASA or the Russians had an "emergency rocket" on the pad each time a shuttle launch was performed...and sadly neither agency has the money for that.

It's all a matter of would of, could of, should of at this point. It's not an excuse to say "oh well, sh*t happens...they did what they could" nor is it to say that NASA shouldn't be held accountable for some of it's decisions or policies....it's somehting that the agency will need to learn from. It found out that what worked on 50 other missions, didn't on this one and rule/guidebook must now be re-vamped. New policies and what if strategies will have to be created...and the way they evaluate shuttle damage at the time of lift off will have to be re-thought.

However, we all need to remember that despite all we know...and all we try to figure out ahead of time...there are still going to be those times when only our failures present us with new knowledge and insight. I know that seems kind of cold...but its a truth none the less. Nothing new in the history of mankind was ever bought without the blood of some of those brave few who ventured out at the vanguard.

Everyone one of us would love to see every astronaut go up and come back unharmed...but the truth of the matter is, that won't always be the case. To expect a "zero loss" rate is unrealistic...and if that is the case, then we should just forgo space exploration...because manned space flight is always going to entail risks. There will be future tragedies despite all we do. If we are continue to venture into space...then we must be prepared for the fact that among our victories, their will be losses.

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Post #: 39

- 2/4/2003 11:05:03 PM

rlc27

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Well, at least Russia's space program is so active still, even though the rest of the country seems to be going to pieces.

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Post #: 40

- 2/5/2003 12:40:44 AM

Voriax

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Well, as for 'sh*t happens*...when the shuttle flights were in the drawing board it was estimated that one flight out of 50 will have serious problems. (quoting from memory, % may be bit off). Add to that the fact that current shuttle is way, way off from what was originally planned and wanted..but budget cuts aren't a new invention.

This might be interesting: http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2003/02_Febbraio/03/crepe.shtml

Feed it through translator as it's in Italian but the image there is supposed to show the wing damage. The pic is a screen cap from Israeli TV, taken during time Arien Sharon was talking with the Israeli astronaut. The camera was panning to get some background images.

Voriax

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Post #: 41

- 2/5/2003 3:20:39 AM

Goblin

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http://www.msnbc.com/news/868068.asp

Rescue scenarios.

Goblin

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- 2/5/2003 5:12:59 AM

Belisarius

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Well, as for 'sh*t happens*...when the shuttle flights were in the drawing board it was estimated that one flight out of 50 will have serious problems. (quoting from memory, % may be bit off). [/B][/QUOTE]

That's one failure in every 483 launches. Just for the record. ;)

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Post #: 43

One must take into account... - 2/5/2003 5:46:32 AM

Orzel Bialy

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that every one of those Rescue Possibilities had a flaw or draw back...and they all assume that NASA and the crew would be aware of the damage...which they were not.

NASA's decision not to use satellites and telescopes to view the area of the wing effected by the falling debris at lift-off were, will be challenged more so that any rescue missions scenarios/attempts.

Since NASA determined that "looking" at the wing section was of little value...and they were assured by their engineers that the lift off damage did not appear to be critical...they continued on with the mission. It is here that we have now learned that that type of approach is flawed...and it is here that policy changes are in need. Future missions will have a different procedure I'm sure...even though that does nothing for the unfortunate crew of Columbia.

Since other shuttles had suffered some forms of debris strikes and landed without mishap (even with some missing or damaged tiles)...and the astronauts and sensors on Columbia were not reporting any signs of damage-induced oddities...NASA made a decision, based on their faith in the machine and past events, that turned out to be tragically wrong.

So to go through the pains of talking about rescue and repair scenarios is the realm of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. They would have only been options if there had been the ability to effectively survey the damage and determine its extend. That it was not possible for the astronauts to get to the edge and bottom of the wing pretty much makes all that a mute point. I do not meant to sound s as if we should dismiss their deaths....but we should learn from them.

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Post #: 44

- 2/5/2003 6:42:02 AM

Goblin

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Flaw or drawback?! IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHECKED. IT WAS NOT EVEN ATTEMPTED. EVEN WITH CAMERAS. Do you work for NASA or something? NO attempt was made. None. Not cameras, walks, telescopes, Ouija boards, nothing. No matter how hard you argue otherwise, an ATTEMPT should have been made. They were there 16 days.

Goblin

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Post #: 45

I don't work for NASA... - 2/5/2003 8:01:52 AM

Orzel Bialy

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you are pointing out what they should have done in hindsight of the break-up Gob....this was not a new issue (debris strikes) and as such they followed the SOP's that had been in place.

I'm not arguing that they were correct...only that they did what they normally did and got away with. Until this happened you, I nor anyone outside of NASA and the program knew that the system in place was based on such a large amount of faith.

You can't say now, after the happening what they should have done...because had everything gone right...it wouldn't have been an issue...would it?

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Post #: 46

- 2/5/2003 8:26:15 AM

Goblin

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They did know what kind of faith was in place, and therefore should have peeked into a dam telescope at the very least. They are the ones that said that they figured there might be damage, but the astronauts could not have fixed it. SO!?! Find out how much damage there is before you let the poor crew fly the thing back in. This wasn't a computer chip or wiring, this was damage to the only thing that kept the thing safe from 3000 F temps. And, yes, I am pointing it out in hindsight. I didn't have the oppotunity to point it out to them ahead of time. I thought they already had rocket scientists working there.

Goblin

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- 2/5/2003 10:14:27 AM

Figmo

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I don't think they can blame it on Pilot error because it was being done by the computer. Does anybody know if that is correct - I'm not real sure.

Figmo

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- 2/5/2003 10:30:33 AM

Bernie

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Well, as for 'sh*t happens*...when the shuttle flights were in the drawing board it was estimated that one flight out of 50 will have serious problems. (quoting from memory, % may be bit off). Add to that the fact that current shuttle is way, way off from what was originally planned and wanted..but budget cuts aren't a new invention.

This might be interesting: http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2003/02_Febbraio/03/crepe.shtml

Feed it through translator as it's in Italian but the image there is supposed to show the wing damage. The pic is a screen cap from Israeli TV, taken during time Arien Sharon was talking with the Israeli astronaut. The camera was panning to get some background images.

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

I took a look at the picture on the site, and all I can say is if that's a genuine, unretouched capture of a frame from the interview, I'll eat it...and the camera it was taken with!

C'mon, let's assume, just to go along with this sick farce, that the photo is real. Okay, what we see is two cracks on the [I]top[/I] of the wing, not the bottom where it may have been struck by the foam. We also see that the cracks are [I]huge[/I], easily 3-6" wide at some points. And they mean for us to believe that in all the time the shuttle was in orbit, and after they were notified that some foam had possibly struck the shuttle during launch, [I]no one looked out the window and said, "Hey, the darn wing is almost busted in half!"?[/I]

Whoever put that story and photo on that web site owes the world, and the USA in particular, a sincere apology.

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Post #: 49

- 2/5/2003 11:36:44 AM

Orzel Bialy

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]And, yes, I am pointing it out in hindsight. I didn't have the oppotunity to point it out to them ahead of time. I thought they already had rocket scientists working there.[/B][/QUOTE]

Again...with what we know now things would have been (and will be on future flights) handled differently. The engineers and the members of the Flight Control staff looked over the pictures and assessed the situation, just as they had in past instances of debris strikes. This was not the first time tiles had been damaged or even found missing...so this wasn't something new.

They judged from the material involved and the lack of any reported issues from the shuttle crew and onboard sensors throughout the flight that the damage was slight. The fact that they were wrong was only proved when the ship was starting to re-enter the atmosphere and the temperature warnings began to register. As I don't work for NASA, I can't say whether they were at a point of no return when the first warning spikes began to appear...but within minutes it was already too late.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is easy for us to say what they should of done...or what we would have done...now that it is beyond the fact. In reality...I think that if put into the same environment our judgements could have been very similiar to those that helped make the poor decisions that lead up to this tragedy. Unless we can walk a mile in their shoes...it's hard to say that for certain that we would have thought any differently.

NASA learned that day that it needed to rethink it's policies and re-formulate it's scenarios on how to handle these types of events in the future. Yes, it's terrible that it took something like this to happen for things to change...and I'm sure there are a few engineers that have began to ponder whether they should have said more or did more or been more critical or more cautious in the manner in which they handled the job. However, they too are only doing this because of what has come to light. It's knowledge bought at a terrible price...there is no doubt about that...but now comes the task of making some good of it.

As for my own personal views...well, maybe I see things differently because I don't think we as citizens should see ourselves as without guilt. After all...each and every American citizen is responsible in some way. From the engineers who made the flawed judgements to the tax payers and elected officials who cut funding and imposed overly great expectations...and have been sending astronauts into space in outdate technology...we all played a part.

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- 2/5/2003 12:35:58 PM

Goblin

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I played no part in it. I can't remember the last time anyone asked me how my tax dollars were to be spent. Don't feed me the crap about 'Then vote for someone who yada yada yada', because its a load. You try to remember, that bringing those people back safely is their JOB. Guess what. Someone didn't do his job. They trusted guys on the ground to say that, yeah, there was probably a 7 inch by 30 inch damaged section, but it shouldn't matter. Oh, ok, you are probably right, guess it doesn't matter. We will just forget about the damage, instead of maybe radioing the space station to try to take a peek on the next pass, because that would be too much effort. Someone might bump his head on the scope or miss lunch or something.

There are little kids crying right now, because mommy or daddy isn't coming home. That pisses me off. They had SIXTEEN days to mull it over.

Goblin

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We look at thing differently... - 2/5/2003 8:52:19 PM

Orzel Bialy

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when it comes to certain matters Goblin. I don't buy people sat around and did nothing because they were lazy or didn't think it important enough. To say that is, to me, a crock of sh*t. These people knew what was at risk...I believe they all are committed to their jobs...and none of them wanted to lose a shuttle....and none of them especially wanted to lose a crew on their watch, in their vehicle.

The people at NASA did what they did because of a misplaced faith that the shuttle could do it again because it did it before....just as misplaced faith did in the Titanic. It's part of human nature to make mistakes...like it or not. It has happened in the past and will happen in the future.

Oh yes, I would also like to note that I have never said that "every" call they made was the right one...so please don't accuse me of shoving any type of crap down your or anyone elses throat. It's also fine with me if you think that the blame lays on only a few heads...that's your opinion...I see it as the result of a much broader problem. To boot, I also feel terrible that people lost their lives and their loved ones. I'm not a monster without feelings, trying to write off their loss in order to defend NASA...so glib remarks aren't required to remind me that people died due to a bad call.

All I'm saying is it's pretty high and mighty of people to sit around and say what should have been done after the fact...if there are so many experts who could and would have done things differently, I guess they should have applied at NASA instead of their current jobs.

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- 2/5/2003 9:54:25 PM

Goblin

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Shuttle in orbit. Wife and I see picture of debris hitting shuttle. Wife asks "Couldn't that cause damage?". I answer, "They will check it.". They didn't. Since it was not my job, and it was their job, they are responsible, period. Sitting on your a$$ and doing nothing because that has been done in the past is not, and never should be, an excuse for negligence.

Goblin

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Post #: 53

- 2/5/2003 10:02:59 PM

Goblin

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http://www.msnbc.com/news/868766.asp

Someone dropped the ball.

Goblin

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- 2/5/2003 10:07:47 PM

tracer

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernie
[B]I took a look at the picture on the site, and all I can say is if that's a genuine, unretouched capture of a frame from the interview, I'll eat it...and the camera it was taken with!
[/B][/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://home.cfl.rr.com/lagoon/img/20030203--240x180.jpg[/IMG]

I'd bet that whatever made the cracks in the photo could also make Homer Simpson hanging on the wing. In fact it looks alot like a Sharpie...was Terrell Owens questioned? :D

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Post #: 55

Couldn't Disagree with you more... - 2/6/2003 2:13:06 AM

Orzel Bialy

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]http://www.msnbc.com/news/868766.asp

Someone dropped the ball.

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

but that's the way it goes.

The shuttle was known to have a weakness when it was first designed Goblin...the fact that it was a fragile vehicle hooked up to a bullet and shot into space by two roman candles.

The fact that the tiles were the best solution that we could come up with in the 70's...innovative as they were...the inherent drawback was that they were easily damaged. NASA was aware of this and had looked into this over the past years. It wasn't sluffed off...people weren't worried about missing lunches...they did look into the matter...but alas, they couldn't come up with a "wonder fix".

In the end run, they came to the frightening conclusion that they could not come up with a workable solution to prevent debris strikes....nor repair very serious ones once the craft was in orbit. It was therefore a case of "if we fly this puppy, then everyone must realize that there are going to be certain worse case situations that will be beyond fixing.

Here's an article that can show it was not just a matter of any ball being dropped:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&ncid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20030205/ap_on_sc/shuttle_investigation

it was more like how do you make a glass ball shatter-proof? The answer is they couldn't.

That the decision was made to fly with the shuttles and the materials at hand, meant that there were not going to be fix-all scenarios for every problem that could crop up.

For all its wonder, it was still fragile craft...with a weak spot. They were not able to come up with solutions to solve every problem...they knew things were not perfect and unfortunately, they also knew that they couldn't make it so...at least not yet.

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Post #: 56

- 2/6/2003 3:17:09 AM

Belisarius

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bernie
[B]I took a look at the picture on the site, and all I can say is if that's a genuine, unretouched capture of a frame from the interview, I'll eat it...and the camera it was taken with!
[/B][/QUOTE]

I've got to agree. Heck, I can even come back for seconds if that picture is authentic. ;)

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Post #: 57

- 2/6/2003 6:10:40 AM

Goblin

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I think you are missing my point here. The point of my argument is that they never even tried to determine if there [I]was[/I] something to fix, not that they didn't or couldn't fix it.

Sure, there were TWO NASA committees that were regarding major safety issues, including one covering this very thing. Yes, there was also one independant committee that found similar things. Yepper, all ignored or placed on the back burner, or had their members fired for mysterious reasons.

It is that little tiny bit of footage that showed a piece of rock-hard 'foam' insulation hitting the shuttle at 1500mph that I am really upset about. These people stuck the tiles on, so should have realized that they are ceramic. Hmmmm, ceramic soft. Impact hard. Maybe we peek somehow. Oooo, look shiny coin on ground *forgets original thought*.....

If, as you seem to be arguing, NASA is not responsible for this terrible tragedy, then who is? The guys that manufactured the tile? I am pretty sure they will say that they sent warnings to NASA about the whole 'fragile, avoid hi-speed impact' bit. ;)

Goblin

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Post #: 58

- 2/6/2003 7:34:45 AM

tracer

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Nasa press conference today showed photos of the underside of the left wing during lift-off...before and after the impact...with no visible effects.

I also looked up that 'mystery' escape pod:
[URL=http://www.meniscus.net/buran/]http://www.meniscus.net/buran/[/URL] :D
It is rusting away, but in Australia of all places.

Interesting bit of info here (under 'aftermath'):

[URL=http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/buran.html]http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/rsa/buran.html[/URL]

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Jim NSB

(in reply to tracer)

Post #: 59

But they did... - 2/6/2003 8:37:00 AM

Orzel Bialy

Posts: 2664
Joined: 4/4/2002
From: Wisconsin USA
Status: offline

in fact watch video of the lift off...as they always do...and did focus in on the "foam" strike. They watched it and then watched it again with the engineers. From the pictures available and I assume from data recorded during the flight, they came to the conclusion that the strike was not critical...wrong as that turned out to be. That is one of the points that I'm making. ;)

The fact that telescope views used in previous instantances ended up being of no real assistance (as they stated) was why they didn't bother to use them this time around. Anything large enough to show up on those views (like that poor Italian newswpaper fake...sure to show up on every tabloid across the planet) would have surely been detected by onboard sensors.

And since any space walk was unpractical...due to the area of the strike and there being no safe way of getting an astronaut there...that pretty much left it to the boys on the ground. At this point in the game I am not saying that they are not responsible either...they are. Which locks into my point that they didn't just sit there with their thumbs up their bums.

That they did what they normally do as per their SOP's and didn't take extra measures (because those were limited in every way) was the pitfall...but that pitfall was only made visible by the failure of the shuttle to make it through re-entry.

Maybe if they had a rocket sitting on the pad with another shuttle ready to go they might have told the crew to conserve energy and await the rushed launch of another shuttle...but that was no more an option as any of the others being mentioned. The bitterly sad fact was these astronauts had to place their trust in human brainwork...which ended being flawed, as it can be at times.

I just think it's a bit far fetched...besides very wrong... to assume that all the people involved with making the call on the ground were sitting around with their feet up on the desks, eating cupcakes and watching re-runs of Barney Miller...and waving away the chance to look over pictures of the debris strike while saying "don't worry about it...it'll be fine..." That they need to find better ways of viewing and calculating possible damage is now obvious to us all...and I'm sure new policies will emerge.

Anyway...that's the point(s) I'm trying to make.

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(in reply to tracer)

Post #: 60