RE: 1.4.2 PATCH

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/17/2014 7:11:30 PM

kirk23

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So what your saying is,the Tech tree needs reworked, as to the time they take to come on stream,I have only scratched the surface with changes here,but I will take a much closer look at time these take to research

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 5/17/2014 8:28:15 PM >

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/17/2014 8:49:20 PM

kirk23

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OK I have been having a closer look at the research tech tree,and I have to say the prognosis is not good,in fact its a mess,the later war scenario's,bear no relation to what was available, for most off the Countries involved in the war.

For example : In 1915 Germany had the C/15 Depth Charge in service,with more than 2,000 made,yet in the game,in the 1918 scenario,Germany is only beginning its Depth Charge research, see photo highlighted in red.

Rest assured,it might take me a few days to fix all the stuff in the Research Tech Tree,but now that I know about it,it will be fixed.

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< Message edited by kirk23 -- 5/17/2014 10:16:23 PM >

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/17/2014 9:06:13 PM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

So what your saying is,the Tech tree needs reworked, as to the time they take to come on stream,I have only scratched the surface with changes here,but I will take a much closer look at time these take to research

I'm trying to think how to respond to your inquiry? As you know, I am more of the MP mind of how this game works as of late, at the same time, trying not to forget consideration on how SP is played. One of my questions would be: Does the AI buy labs? or sell labs? It seems to me that the AI hangs onto all it's (free) labs no matter how bad their disposition get's (even when they are getting crushed). I seriously doubt the AI buys labs and I seriously doubt the AI ever reaches the fullest "Tech Tree" potential for some of the tech categories. If that is a correct conclusion; Then the SP or MP player who leaves just one lab in a tech category for the duration of a 118 turn game will achieve the same results (incomplete tech development). Lately, what I experience, is that it is nearly impossible for a MP CP player to maintain a lab in each category of the tech tree, they simply can not afford the PP in upkeep costs, especially when there are static fronts, which is frequent. the attrition from small and large battles sucks up the PP, leaving rare opportunity for CP to buy and maintain additional lab or labs, hence, a slow tech development, often without all the category selections in the tech tree (no armor lab, no naval lab, no artillery lab, no air lab), especially later in a game, just concentrate on infantry development. SOLUTION: I don't have one just yet,,,,,,A little tired, there is more to this issue, going to have to think about it and how to set up examples, later...

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/17/2014 9:34:03 PM

Tomokatu

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That sounds as though it will need to be spreadsheeted with cost vs time and the major variable will be the contributions.
Search for the solution which gives the desired time target. I
t MAY need to be a separate one for each tech on the tree and end up with different lab costs for each tech thread (which is GOOD! aircraft engines take more time and effort than throwing depthcharges overboard)

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/17/2014 9:51:52 PM

kirk23

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I think your right,I'm going to have to spend a great deal of time,painstakingly going through all the Tech Tree's,in order to fix everything,for each and every Country.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 12:07:20 AM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

That sounds as though it will need to be spreadsheeted with cost vs time and the major variable will be the contributions.
Search for the solution which gives the desired time target. I
t MAY need to be a separate one for each tech on the tree and end up with different lab costs for each tech thread (which is GOOD! aircraft engines take more time and effort than throwing depthcharges overboard)

quote:

Kirk wrote
I think your right,I'm going to have to spend a great deal of time,painstakingly going through all the Tech Tree's,in order to fix everything,for each and every Country.

Kirk & Tomokatu,

I'm almost afraid to ask (so I will not), about speadsheets. Do not know how to do spreadsheets, however, the idea of using them is the way to go. I can only imagine there must be countless ways/configurations to set one up. Let's say: a tech tree spreadsheet for 1 lab per tech category with/without "focus" on a particular tech, next,,, a spreadsheet with 2 labs and so forth, ect.. To come up with the estimated game turn a tech would come to fruition.

quote:

Orm wrote,
-Set researching "air defence" as first priority from turn one.
-CP can counter air strike. Build some zeppelins and bombard any air unit you see. If you see no air unit then you can harass their art or land units instead. Making him see the same fun of air power as you do.
-Try to avoid garrisons as front units as they have no air protection.
-If opponent focus on air power then he has less land units so if you can make the war mobile then that might cause trouble for him.

I took up Orm's first suggestion in a fairly new MP match, just to see if it proves to be beneficial in a timely manner. The iffy part is: What if the opponent goes with a strong focused ground (infantry techs) game? Then I would be weak on ground combat defense techs, it's a gamble, but at least I have a choice.. The problem with coming to a decision on which way to go, it takes a lot of game turns to figure out if the move was a right one? or a wrong one?

Bob

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 7:56:53 AM

kirk23

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Well all I can say is,in the next patch,Garrison's,Infantry,Cavalry,Artillery & Armoured cars,all have some Anti-Air defense from the start.So Anti-Air research,I suspect won't be the first thing you will need to worry about.

For game players who like to use a lot of Air Power,the above changes won't stop air warfare,it just means you can't attack,in the knowledge that you won't take some losses.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 5/18/2014 9:49:04 AM >

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Post #: 217

RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 9:11:38 AM

kirk23

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Starting to make changes to Tech Tree research,in the 1915 scenario Britain has 70% Depth Charge Research complete.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 9:13:29 AM

kirk23

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Also in the 1915 scenario Germany has 30% Depth Charge Research complete.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 11:03:40 AM

operating

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Can't scroll through a tech, like I used to be able to. For instance: If depth charge picture is in the queue, cannot scroll to hydrophones in the back of that part of the tech tree. Is anybodyelse having this problem?

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 11:04:23 AM

kirk23

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Rail Gun improved,making it more effective,and worthwhile thinking about using in game.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 11:10:54 AM

kirk23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

Can't scroll through a tech, like I used to be able to. For instance: If depth charge picture is in the queue, cannot scroll to hydrophones in the back of that part of the tech tree. Is anybodyelse having this problem?

Nope don't have that problem,everything ok on my PC!

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 12:03:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Rail Gun improved,making it more effective,and worthwhile thinking about using in game.

Kirk,

Can appreciate the changes to the RR gun itself, but the problem is: it is not deployable (in game) till much later in the war, than it was actually put to use. Sure,,, it is historical slanted argument, but also a practical one too. Once the creeping barrage tech is complete (making owning side a level 10 artillery), there is little incentive to continue artillery tech just to produce a costly RR gun that will be more than likely be outdated before it can be utilized. SOLUTION: shorten up the development time for RR gun tech. bottom line; it's not worth the tech upkeep of 4 PP per turn till tech is completed, cost for unit, and the PP for upkeep of the unit while in the production queue, it's limited use, restriction to rail, and highly unlikely to be able to afford more than one of these dinosaurs if you are a tough game, if at all. Does not make much sense that a losing side would invest, as it is now, in a losing weapon.

Bob

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 12:15:34 PM

kirk23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Rail Gun improved,making it more effective,and worthwhile thinking about using in game.

Kirk,

Can appreciate the changes to the RR gun itself, but the problem is: it is not deployable (in game) till much later in the war, than it was actually put to use. Sure,,, it is historical slanted argument, but also a practical one too. Once the creeping barrage tech is complete (making owning side a level 10 artillery), there is little incentive to continue artillery tech just to produce a costly RR gun that will be more than likely be outdated before it can be utilized. SOLUTION: shorten up the development time for RR gun tech. bottom line; it's not worth the tech upkeep of 4 PP per turn till tech is completed, cost for unit, and the PP for upkeep of the unit while in the production queue, it's limited use, restriction to rail, and highly unlikely to be able to afford more than one of these dinosaurs if you are a tough game, if at all. Does not make much sense that a losing side would invest, as it is now, in a losing weapon.

Bob

I agree with everything you say about the Rail Gun,but this is what is happening in the last patch,and not the 1.50 version I'm working on,The research time frame is now reduced to 1916,as for the Countries not being able to pay for stuff,well most if not all Countries will have more PPs to play with,this game is now on its 3rd or 4th patch,and there are still many many things that ain't right,well no longer,this game is going too get a major overhaul,from top to bottom it deserves nothing less.

The Rail Gun has one major strategic use,in that it has a range of 3,meaning its the only land unit that can be used as a stand off weapon,and bombard enemy units and Cities etc.

WORLD WAR 1

The outbreak of the First World War caught the French with a shortage of heavy field artillery. In compensation, large numbers of large static coastal defense guns and naval guns were moved to the front, but these were typically unsuitable for field use and required some kind of mounting. The railway gun provided the obvious solution. By 1916, both sides were deploying railway guns.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 5/18/2014 1:30:37 PM >

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 1:32:30 PM

kirk23

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Rail Gun now with reduced PPs,MP,Upkeep & Build time.( Now will you use them in game? )

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 1:35:29 PM

kirk23

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Rail Gun new combat effect,in photo it shows the French Rail Gun near Paris,targeting the Germany Infantry unit.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 5:29:25 PM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Rail Gun now with reduced PPs,MP,Upkeep & Build time.( Now will you use them in game? )

Yes, is the answer. Would this apply in a 1914 scenario, with the possibility of a 1915 or 1916 deployment? that would clinch it for my taste, and would be approximately correct historically (mind you it does not need to be historical, just possible). The RR gun is a beautiful looking weapon, and now practical, should be a shoo-in as a keeper.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/18/2014 6:09:37 PM

kirk23

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Glad you like,in 1914 scenario the quicker you focus the research,the quicker you will get to use these bad boys!

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 11:35:31 AM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Glad you like,in 1914 scenario the quicker you focus the research,the quicker you will get to use these bad boys!

AHhhh! There might be a problem here too! Does a player need an industrial armor tech in order to build RR gun? I could be wrong, but if I am right, that could hamstring RR gun development. Where I am going with this is: Many times as CP in MP cannot afford the upkeep of any armor tech labs, instead rely on a strong infantry anti-tank defense/offense, which can be spread across many more units. Sure it would be nice to keep an armor tech lab, only problem is the results of that tech: cannot afford the cost of armor units and their upkeep, accept for armored cars. To me, armored trains for CP, are not all that usefull. Yes, maybe buy one or two tanks, but that's stretching it, their upkeep costs would be a killer. In summary: Why even go down that road of techs? In the end that would also kill the RR gun idea....

<edit>

Just checked: RR gun looks like it does not need industrial armor tech in order to brought up to the production queue.

< Message edited by operating -- 5/19/2014 2:12:12 PM >

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 3:02:26 PM

operating

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

So what your saying is,the Tech tree needs reworked, as to the time they take to come on stream,I have only scratched the surface with changes here,but I will take a much closer look at time these take to research

In the SS below, is what I refer to. Granted Turkey has the tech tree of a minor nation and the income of a minor nation, also enters several turns into a scenario (1914). If pushed,,, seldom does it get a chance to accumulate PP for a 2nd lab. My opponent might appreciate this SS, at this point I don't care. This also should demonstrate what condition the AI should be at this stage of the game (of course we know the AI cheats). Mind you in this match Turkey has not lost any cities, Russia has surrendered.

These techs are not even near the threshold of 5 turns to show up at the bottom of the research window. This research window leaves a lot to be desired, that is another issue (? length of time it takes for these techs to show up there). It would be nice to know when these techs actually show up in what # of turns. For it could be a complete waste of time to keep invested in them.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 3:24:04 PM

kirk23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Glad you like,in 1914 scenario the quicker you focus the research,the quicker you will get to use these bad boys!

AHhhh! There might be a problem here too! Does a player need an industrial armor tech in order to build RR gun? I could be wrong, but if I am right, that could hamstring RR gun development. Where I am going with this is: Many times as CP in MP cannot afford the upkeep of any armor tech labs, instead rely on a strong infantry anti-tank defense/offense, which can be spread across many more units. Sure it would be nice to keep an armor tech lab, only problem is the results of that tech: cannot afford the cost of armor units and their upkeep, accept for armored cars. To me, armored trains for CP, are not all that usefull. Yes, maybe buy one or two tanks, but that's stretching it, their upkeep costs would be a killer. In summary: Why even go down that road of techs? In the end that would also kill the RR gun idea....

<edit>

Just checked: RR gun looks like it does not need industrial armor tech in order to brought up to the production queue.

Armour Tech not required to build Rail Gun,once you have researched it,it will appear in the production queue.In this new patch I say again all Nations have more PPs & Manpower to play with,Tech Build times have also been reduced.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 3:25:41 PM

kirk23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

So what your saying is,the Tech tree needs reworked, as to the time they take to come on stream,I have only scratched the surface with changes here,but I will take a much closer look at time these take to research

In the SS below, is what I refer to. Granted Turkey has the tech tree of a minor nation and the income of a minor nation, also enters several turns into a scenario (1914). If pushed,,, seldom does it get a chance to accumulate PP for a 2nd lab.

Not in the new patch,Turkey can have a second lab,because she has more PPs available & Manpower.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 6:42:45 PM

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Kirk,

I know this will be asking the impossible: How about Turkish armored cars? Did a research where a Turk Sultan had armored cars before WWI, somewhat dubious, nonetheless, they existed. example below;

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 7:21:12 PM

kirk23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

So what your saying is,the Tech tree needs reworked, as to the time they take to come on stream,I have only scratched the surface with changes here,but I will take a much closer look at time these take to research

These techs are not even near the threshold of 5 turns to show up at the bottom of the research window. This research window leaves a lot to be desired, that is another issue (? length of time it takes for these techs to show up there). It would be nice to know when these techs actually show up in what # of turns. For it could be a complete waste of time to keep invested in them.

I'm sure the average time, each Tech takes to research,is roundabout 20 turns!

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 7:24:04 PM

kirk23

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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

Kirk,

I know this will be asking the impossible: How about Turkish armored cars? Did a research where a Turk Sultan had armored cars before WWI, somewhat dubious, nonetheless, they existed. example below;

I will check this out,and if its possible who knows? I mean I have already given Turkey Artillery,along with Serbia,Bulgaria & Rumania

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 7:43:11 PM

kirk23

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Is this what you would like to see in game Bob?

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 7:51:07 PM

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Kirk,

Another thought (OH NO!)

: How about all first labs of all categories in the tech tree to every nation be free of upkeep PP, then if a nation wants additional labs they come at a hefty price with increased upkeep more than present or proposed (as you have mentioned)?

Bob

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 8:03:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Is this what you would like to see in game Bob?

Squire Kirk,

Speaking for myself: "I would absolutely LOVE IT"!

If it could be set up, much like what the Belgians have (no armor tech), could be the way to go. Don't want to go into this with blinders on, would like to hear from other members about this Turkish armored car concept.

Wearing my Turkish hat today (whatever they are called), Bob

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/19/2014 9:58:44 PM

Tomokatu

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I also like the idea of he first lab being upkeep free.

@Operating,
Spreadsheets are a world of wonder.
You really should learn to dabble in them, you can do AMAZING things! (Excel is Micro$oft'$ offering, expensive.) There are third-party applications which read and save to Excel (.xls-format) files.

Ummm.. the Turkish headwear is called a fez.

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RE: 1.4.2 PATCH - 5/20/2014 5:38:18 AM

kirk23

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I can do better than that,how about just reducing the Lab Upkeep to 1 see photo.As you can see Turkey has 2 Labs for each tech,which only costs 4 for Upkeep.Turkey also has excess PPs,MP & Ammunition production.