RE: Building Soviet Units

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> RE: Building Soviet Units

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RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/25/2014 10:50:45 AM

hfarrish

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Oh, I've been thrashed by highly capable German opponents...but in prior versions of the game where the entire Luftwaffe could be turned into a flying fuel barge. Also, I learned from my mistakes and got better, you know, like most people do. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that anyone who disputes your characterization doesn't know what they are talking about (when you can just look at most of our commenting history to see that we have been playing the game for years).

< Message edited by hfarrish -- 3/25/2014 11:51:09 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 31

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 4:24:24 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

If you will kindly reread my posts, you will see that I said that I have no understanding of the German side of this game yet, but that I am certain that my opponent, Wheat, is competent enough at playing the German side so as to offer an optimal German offense. You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

(in reply to 821Bobo)

Post #: 32

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 4:29:24 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Oh, I've been thrashed by highly capable German opponents...but in prior versions of the game where the entire Luftwaffe could be turned into a flying fuel barge. Also, I learned from my mistakes and got better, you know, like most people do. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that anyone who disputes your characterization doesn't know what they are talking about (when you can just look at most of our commenting history to see that we have been playing the game for years).

And you don't think that your opinions of game balance might be just a bit tainted by your experience from obsolete patches containing broken code ?

(in reply to hfarrish)

Post #: 33

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 6:50:14 PM

821Bobo

Posts: 2311
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

If you will kindly reread my posts, you will see that I said that I have no understanding of the German side of this game yet, but that I am certain that my opponent, Wheat, is competent enough at playing the German side so as to offer an optimal German offense. You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

For sure you know it better even if I am playing WitE from day one and lads like Pelton or MT probably doesn't count.
Maybe Wheat may accept one more challenge and prove that you are wrong and folks here are right.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 34

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 7:02:36 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

If you will kindly reread my posts, you will see that I said that I have no understanding of the German side of this game yet,

That's surely one of the reasons why you are losing as russian.

Playing both sides helps understanding the ability and limits of your opponent.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 35

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 7:23:59 PM

timmyab

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

Yeah come on Wheat show us how to play the Axis side will you. What was it again? stacking armored units to prevent them being counterattacked - that's advanced stuff, I didn't even know you could stack units.

< Message edited by timmyab -- 3/26/2014 8:27:23 PM >

(in reply to hfarrish)

Post #: 36

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 9:42:23 PM

hfarrish

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

"Seriously dude..." Any player (who is playing vs a GOOD German HUMAN opponent) that doesn't understand that, in THIS campaign game simulation, under THIS simulation's programmed combat/logistics/morale/movement models in effect for the 41-42 time period, the German player can crush or encircle anything the Soviet player foolishly leaves within his grasp, cannot remotely be referred to as "experienced". So what I'm rejecting is bad advice from players who have not yet been thrashed by a capable German opponent.

Oh, I've been thrashed by highly capable German opponents...but in prior versions of the game where the entire Luftwaffe could be turned into a flying fuel barge. Also, I learned from my mistakes and got better, you know, like most people do. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that anyone who disputes your characterization doesn't know what they are talking about (when you can just look at most of our commenting history to see that we have been playing the game for years).

And you don't think that your opinions of game balance might be just a bit tainted by your experience from obsolete patches containing broken code ?

You really just don't give up do you? I've played plenty under all versions, including the current one, in each case against very good players. I think it is in a great state now (relative to previous versions) but you need house rules to make it competitive - an unrestrained Soviet player who knows what he is doing can generally crush the Germans.

I just can't get over why you think you (of admittedly very little experience in ANY version, much less this one) know that things are horribly biased towards the Germans when no one else on the Boards, including the Soviet players, think this is the case.

_____________________________

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 37

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/26/2014 10:23:25 PM

M60A3TTS

Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline

Gamesaurus, out of curiosity are you playing PBEM or server against Wheat? If it is PBEM, I would very much like to see one of your game saves.

(in reply to hfarrish)

Post #: 38

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/27/2014 4:07:07 PM

Schmart

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

Makes no sense. The game is broken because a newbie played against a capable and experienced opponent? Looks like you're looking for excuses rather than trying to learn the game and improve your own gameplay...

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 39

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/27/2014 5:58:59 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

You gentlemen have simply not yet played against a German side opponent as capable as Wheat. If you had, you would not be so argumentative about it.

Makes no sense. The game is broken because a newbie played against a capable and experienced opponent? Looks like you're looking for excuses rather than trying to learn the game and improve your own gameplay...

Man... you know you are in a room full of "fanbois" when you can't even discuss issues with their "pet" without being attacked !

Now Gentlemen... I invite you to go back and re-READ what I have posted... if you do, (and can resist your knee-jerk reaction to anything less than glowing comments) you will find that I have criticized basically two things:

1) That the game has faults simulating the 41-42 time period. It biases the mechanics of combat/morale/movement too much in favor of the German side in order to insure that the German side can obtain sweeping advances and magic pockets in that time period. The negative consequence of this design approach results in the Russian side avoiding all but the most necessary of combat needed to delay the German in order to evacuate industry. This plays out in a less than historical way where the Russian simply abandons everything west of Moskow, (ideally without a fight for maximum effect.) Dissapointing from both side's perspective as a game simulation.

2) That the CG scenario is flawed by the enabling of the "Lvov Pocket" opening, which was neither physically nor politically possible to achieve in reality (for reasons I have detailed in other threads, along with suggested HR to limit it) and is a side effect of flawed movement, flawed terrain mapping/weather details, and time-slicing issues related to IGO-UGO turn design.

And Further...

That after reading most of all the posts on this forum, I get the clear impression that a majority of the comments regarding the "balance" state of this game were formed and based upon player experiences gained PRIOR to the recent patches (prior to 1.07.11 and beyond). The later patches have significantly changed the game. So... no disrespect to those who played the game "since beta", but their dated perspective is basically unrelated to the current state of the game.

And Finally...

In THIS thread, the OP asked for opinions regarding Soviet buildup in the early stage of the CG. I voiced the opinion that advocated that he build basic units aimed eventually at Infantry Corps buildup and retreat rapidly enough to deny "death by pocket". It seems that by advocating this I have angered the German "fanbois" crowd who thrive on exploiting the flaws in the game to produce Pelton's patented "Sieg by Turn 14".

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/27/2014 7:12:23 PM >

(in reply to Schmart)

Post #: 40

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/27/2014 8:10:36 PM

Wheat

Posts: 154
Joined: 6/17/2011
Status: offline

My oh my. What have you done now GR? Apparently I am being challenged by legions of angered German fanboys. Gulp!
And I didn't even start the trouble.

To my forum compatriots, clearly, GamesaurusRex needs to be put down. I have tried valiantly, but only got to Grozny. For my failure, I apologize. If it's any consolation, he won't get to Berlin.

My play is nothing miraculous. AS I SAID, and so many of you have echoed, he needs to play the German side to realize they are not supermen. I had the advantage of playing several games vs AI as the Germans prior to our two games. The first game was badly compromised in favor of the Germans, and was a rout. So, in our current game he ran far and fast, thus my alleged competent play. I simply took what was given. He NEEDS to play the krauts.

He made a typo in a post btw, I took Stalingrad and Moscow in 42, not 43. By 43 the Soviets are too strong to push around.

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)

Post #: 41

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/27/2014 8:50:00 PM

STEF78

Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

My oh my. What have you done now GR? Apparently I am being challenged by legions of angered German fanboys. Gulp!
And I didn't even start the trouble.

To my forum compatriots, clearly, GamesaurusRex needs to be put down. I have tried valiantly, but only got to Grozny. For my failure, I apologize. If it's any consolation, he won't get to Berlin.

My play is nothing miraculous. AS I SAID, and so many of you have echoed, he needs to play the German side to realize they are not supermen. I had the advantage of playing several games vs AI as the Germans prior to our two games. The first game was badly compromised in favor of the Germans, and was a rout. So, in our current game he ran far and fast, thus my alleged competent play. I simply took what was given. He NEEDS to play the krauts.

He made a typo in a post btw, I took Stalingrad and Moscow in 42, not 43. By 43 the Soviets are too strong to push around.

I love this post!!!

(in reply to Wheat)

Post #: 42

RE: Building Soviet Units - 3/29/2014 4:23:39 PM

GamesaurusRex

Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheat

My oh my. What have you done now GR? Apparently I am being challenged by legions of angered German fanboys. Gulp!
And I didn't even start the trouble.

To my forum compatriots, clearly, GamesaurusRex needs to be put down. I have tried valiantly, but only got to Grozny. For my failure, I apologize. If it's any consolation, he won't get to Berlin.

My play is nothing miraculous. AS I SAID, and so many of you have echoed, he needs to play the German side to realize they are not supermen. I had the advantage of playing several games vs AI as the Germans prior to our two games. The first game was badly compromised in favor of the Germans, and was a rout. So, in our current game he ran far and fast, thus my alleged competent play. I simply took what was given. He NEEDS to play the krauts.

He made a typo in a post btw, I took Stalingrad and Moscow in 42, not 43. By 43 the Soviets are too strong to push around.

I love this post too...

Why? Because it clearly shows that my capable German side opponent believes he has this game in the bag...
and maybe he does... (Great ! This should be the German state of mind generated by a simulation of the "War In The East" before the illusion of invincibility is washed from his eyes.)

Will the washing happen ? Who knows ? It has to be played out...
but it is only October 1943 and the Russian Army is 8 million in the field and climbing...
no supply, truck, or armaments constraints courtesy of things I learned from Flaviusx (yes, I "learned" from good advice given here... something some of you seem to think me incapable of...lol)

According to a number of opinions here, this situation is supposed to reverse itself based upon TOE changes, continued Soviet buildup, etc. Time will tell.

None of this has anything to do with or mitigates my criticism that the mechanics of the 41-42 time period does not allow for a satisfactory "dog-eat-dog" Russian forward defense in the early stage of the game.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/29/2014 7:28:04 PM >

(in reply to Wheat)

Post #: 43