RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjoy (J)

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RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 3:17:54 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes, it does!! Consider the numbers.

I can lose up to 1,000 supply points a day from 300-400 2E hitting the base.

This is the basic number I disagree with. He won't get 300-400 bombers per day over Chungking, and if you have supply for AA they won't do that kind of damage. At least in my experience playing stock. It depends on where you have placed your limited Chinese AA assets too. If the garrison is big enough to defend the city a huge amount of your available supply is stored inside your LCUs where it can't be bombed. As production dwindles this becomes even more the case. It's produced and it's absorbed the next turn. That doesn't get you the Level 7 of course, but it does prevent him from burning all your supplies.

CAP costs 1/3 of a supply point per plane per day. If you fly 150 planes that's more than 10 supply/day.

And you can--I think without checking later-war extended ranges for your models (I don't have any yet)--fly out to India for replacements, but you leave the damaged behind to be bombed. And he's going to bomb the AF and not Ground if he wants to burn supply.

I cannot lose that much from replacing 1E fighters at 12 supply per airframe. It costs less than 10 supply a day to fly the actual CAP. So if I replace 10 airframes a day that's 120 supply. That's a lot of airframes and I won't do that every day.

I'd say even if I did replace airframes instead of moving units out to India to do the replacements, then flying them back in, I wouldn't spend more than 100 supply a day, even to run 100-150 fighters on CAP here. That's way better than letting him bomb away, losing the supply from the AA guns and the hits to the field, day after day. When you consider I also get my pilots kills and experience and he loses a bunch of his, it's a no brainer.

OK. I'll shut up and see how you do. I have nightmares about the VP numbers myself.

I love the comments. Always good to hear your thoughts.

He has gotten 300-400 over other bases. Just working from that assumption.

Yes, you're right on numbers. I was using what I'd figured out per group before. Thanks.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1681

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 3:49:51 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes, it does!! Consider the numbers.

I can lose up to 1,000 supply points a day from 300-400 2E hitting the base.

This is the basic number I disagree with. He won't get 300-400 bombers per day over Chungking, and if you have supply for AA they won't do that kind of damage. At least in my experience playing stock. It depends on where you have placed your limited Chinese AA assets too. If the garrison is big enough to defend the city a huge amount of your available supply is stored inside your LCUs where it can't be bombed. As production dwindles this becomes even more the case. It's produced and it's absorbed the next turn. That doesn't get you the Level 7 of course, but it does prevent him from burning all your supplies.

CAP costs 1/3 of a supply point per plane per day. If you fly 150 planes that's more than 10 supply/day.

And you can--I think without checking later-war extended ranges for your models (I don't have any yet)--fly out to India for replacements, but you leave the damaged behind to be bombed. And he's going to bomb the AF and not Ground if he wants to burn supply.

I cannot lose that much from replacing 1E fighters at 12 supply per airframe. It costs less than 10 supply a day to fly the actual CAP. So if I replace 10 airframes a day that's 120 supply. That's a lot of airframes and I won't do that every day.

I'd say even if I did replace airframes instead of moving units out to India to do the replacements, then flying them back in, I wouldn't spend more than 100 supply a day, even to run 100-150 fighters on CAP here. That's way better than letting him bomb away, losing the supply from the AA guns and the hits to the field, day after day. When you consider I also get my pilots kills and experience and he loses a bunch of his, it's a no brainer.

OK. I'll shut up and see how you do. I have nightmares about the VP numbers myself.

3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.

Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1682

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 4:12:19 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't think you stand much of a chance of getting all the way to Manchuria based on an air bridge from Kashgar alone - not even with the (meager) supply generation from Urumchi.

Well, gotta think big!

I am imagining this with an assist from supply finally coming from another source, like a landing along the Chinese coast that can link to the troops. Sometime in early 45. Basically this gives a possibility for Chinese troops to still be involved later if he keeps China cut off to the South, or that's the idea.

You will get a lot of transport aircraft soon. Unless you are planning para assaults they can all go to the air bridge. Once you get the Commando you can haul in some small arty and AA guns.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1683

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 4:14:46 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I don't think you stand much of a chance of getting all the way to Manchuria based on an air bridge from Kashgar alone - not even with the (meager) supply generation from Urumchi.

Well, gotta think big!

I am imagining this with an assist from supply finally coming from another source, like a landing along the Chinese coast that can link to the troops. Sometime in early 45. Basically this gives a possibility for Chinese troops to still be involved later if he keeps China cut off to the South, or that's the idea.

You will get a lot of transport aircraft soon. Unless you are planning para assaults they can all go to the air bridge. Once you get the Commando you can haul in some small arty and AA guns.

Already i have more than the airfields can support in range. I'll be building fast and furiously for the next few weeks.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 1684

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 4:15:23 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes, it does!! Consider the numbers.

I can lose up to 1,000 supply points a day from 300-400 2E hitting the base.

This is the basic number I disagree with. He won't get 300-400 bombers per day over Chungking, and if you have supply for AA they won't do that kind of damage. At least in my experience playing stock. It depends on where you have placed your limited Chinese AA assets too. If the garrison is big enough to defend the city a huge amount of your available supply is stored inside your LCUs where it can't be bombed. As production dwindles this becomes even more the case. It's produced and it's absorbed the next turn. That doesn't get you the Level 7 of course, but it does prevent him from burning all your supplies.

CAP costs 1/3 of a supply point per plane per day. If you fly 150 planes that's more than 10 supply/day.

And you can--I think without checking later-war extended ranges for your models (I don't have any yet)--fly out to India for replacements, but you leave the damaged behind to be bombed. And he's going to bomb the AF and not Ground if he wants to burn supply.

I cannot lose that much from replacing 1E fighters at 12 supply per airframe. It costs less than 10 supply a day to fly the actual CAP. So if I replace 10 airframes a day that's 120 supply. That's a lot of airframes and I won't do that every day.

I'd say even if I did replace airframes instead of moving units out to India to do the replacements, then flying them back in, I wouldn't spend more than 100 supply a day, even to run 100-150 fighters on CAP here. That's way better than letting him bomb away, losing the supply from the AA guns and the hits to the field, day after day. When you consider I also get my pilots kills and experience and he loses a bunch of his, it's a no brainer.

OK. I'll shut up and see how you do. I have nightmares about the VP numbers myself.

3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.

Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.

I'l count them on the next big set of strikes. i have before and it did reach 400 a few days.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 1685

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 4:48:26 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Stacking limits devastate supply in a besieged and heavily over stacked base. See my AAR for some info about that in Babes in Chungking.

I had not considered SLs. I don't play with them. That they're problematic in China for the Allies has been discussed elsewhere. But you make a good point. Even more support for, as the (supposed) Inuit saying goes: "the best place to store food is in the body." The best place for supply is inside LCUs.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 1686

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 4:52:32 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.

You CAN get 300 up, but daily? And 400? Without the bases GJ doesn't have and you do? I track your numbers and they surge. Some days up to 30% more. Might also be weather. But 400/day for a year I don't see.

Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.

Chungking in our game is functionally different than here. Obvert has LI/HI capability; I don't. He has open hex sides; I don't. He has SLs; I don't. As for keeping organic supply low . . . ummm, OK. That doesn't mean you should bomb the AF though. Please don't.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 1687

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 7:12:04 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Stacking limits devastate supply in a besieged and heavily over stacked base. See my AAR for some info about that in Babes in Chungking.

I had not considered SLs. I don't play with them. That they're problematic in China for the Allies has been discussed elsewhere. But you make a good point. Even more support for, as the (supposed) Inuit saying goes: "the best place to store food is in the body." The best place for supply is inside LCUs.

The SL in China are one of the main reasons the game is so tough there for the Japanese in ours. It's really a benefit to the Allies if you plan and don't get caught too often with your pants down and a hex at more than 15-20% over the limits. It also means the off road hexes are tough nuts, and why the hex in front of Chikhiang lasted for three months of solid IJA pressure.

I planned for Chungking to have a full complement of the best Chinese units on the map, a bunch of base forces with AA guns and all of the stand alone AA units. All of he decent arty units, which are few. Nearby I've got 3000AV of other experienced and rested Chinese Corps that can move in to replace worn units wince he attacks. That is most likely why he's now trying to move to cut the eastern road toward Kweiyang. it's not going well with two negative DAs and almost 400 disabled infantry squads for the Japanese and only about 100 for the Chinese.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1688

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 7:51:31 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

April 27 - 28, 1943

INDIA: The DA at Dambulla wil go tomorrow.

CENT PAC: Nauru is getting supply and base forces. A PBY group moves in to get deeper search here.

SW PAC: I'll land at Buna and Oro Bay on the 29th.

CHINA: Full frontal Tojo assault on Chungking on the 27th. Looks like all he's got here. Yet, somehow, the P-40K groups fight them off for a very positive result. On the day we lose 28 planes for 38 in China, mostly of Tojo IIc.I'll now fly in Hellcats. As with the group in the SW PAC area, I want experience and kills for these guys to get them equal to an IJN CV group by the time they may be needed. They'll only be used in defense, so most pilots should be saved.

Most bombing anywhere near the CAPed bases has stopped, but 87 bombers still hit other targets in China on the 27th and 93 on the28th .

OZ: Once Buna is in Allies hands I'll get fast transports ready to move into the Gulf of Carpenteria to get troops to Grote Eylandt and Gove.

SIGINT: Something is planning for Wenchow!

70th Division is planning for an attack on Wenchow.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 27, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 37

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 95

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 6 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 38
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 10

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 78

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 75,47 (near Kweiyang)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 23705 troops, 379 guns, 646 vehicles, Assault Value = 705

Defending force 38301 troops, 61 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1253

Japanese adjusted assault: 493

Allied adjusted defense: 4063

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1499 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 159 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Guns lost 27 (1 destroyed, 26 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
300 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled

Assaulting units:
1st Tank Division
3rd Division
12th Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
37th Chinese Corps
2nd Chinese Corps
84th Chinese Corps
99th Chinese Corps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice the stream of units leaving the Chungking area and heading for Western OZ. A long journey. The other idea is that if they starve I think I remember they don't count again me in VPs, right?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/23/2015 8:52:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1689

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/23/2015 8:04:06 PM

Lokasenna

Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

3-400 bombers is not outside the realm of possibility... on March 25, 325 of my bombers (plus my strafers) bombed Chungking. I use 20% rest, so the total bombers in the units is right around 400.

You CAN get 300 up, but daily? And 400? Without the bases GJ doesn't have and you do? I track your numbers and they surge. Some days up to 30% more. Might also be weather. But 400/day for a year I don't see.

Also, a subtle point - the reason I'm ground bombing is as much to keep organic supply low in the units as it is to disable some troops. Maybe even more so. Once the base stockpile of supply is at or near 0, there's no point in bombing the airfield.

Chungking in our game is functionally different than here. Obvert has LI/HI capability; I don't. He has open hex sides; I don't. He has SLs; I don't. As for keeping organic supply low . . . ummm, OK. That doesn't mean you should bomb the AF though. Please don't.

Yes, that 420/day filters into units if I don't bomb the airfield, but I've noticed through my multitude of attacks in our game and against the AI that bombing the troops helps me more on the attacks.

It's definitely weather on the surges. It's been winter for us lately, and I've had days where only 20 flew, or none, despite 90+ Morale and correct settings. As for GJ's airfields... no, he doesn't have as many. But can't Kweiyang go to level 9? Even if only Level 8, that's still a huge bomber base... and then there's Chihkiang, and Kunming, and I know GJ has those also. Even Changsha is within normal flight range for Helens/Sallys.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1690

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 12:47:09 AM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Stacking limits devastate supply in a besieged and heavily over stacked base. See my AAR for some info about that in Babes in Chungking.

I had not considered SLs. I don't play with them. That they're problematic in China for the Allies has been discussed elsewhere. But you make a good point. Even more support for, as the (supposed) Inuit saying goes: "the best place to store food is in the body." The best place for supply is inside LCUs.

The SL in China are one of the main reasons the game is so tough there for the Japanese in ours. It's really a benefit to the Allies if you plan and don't get caught too often with your pants down and a hex at more than 15-20% over the limits. It also means the off road hexes are tough nuts, and why the hex in front of Chikhiang lasted for three months of solid IJA pressure.

I planned for Chungking to have a full complement of the best Chinese units on the map, a bunch of base forces with AA guns and all of the stand alone AA units. All of he decent arty units, which are few. Nearby I've got 3000AV of other experienced and rested Chinese Corps that can move in to replace worn units wince he attacks. That is most likely why he's now trying to move to cut the eastern road toward Kweiyang. it's not going well with two negative DAs and almost 400 disabled infantry squads for the Japanese and only about 100 for the Chinese.

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1691

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 2:25:54 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

April 29 - 30, 1943

INDIA: At Dambulla mixed Allied untis DA and push the Japanese back with minor losses. On to Trincomalee.

CENT PAC: Units are loading for Mili. I have no air support for this op other than what Makin can supply with LR CAP. Could be dicey, so it may be suspended or cancelled at any sign of trouble.

SW PAC: The landing at Oro Bay and Buna goes well and on the 30th the US Cavalry pushes a small 15AV naval guard unit out of Buna. Engineers are on the way.

CHINA: Wow. All three bigger Tojo groups cooperated and arrived with over 120 fighters at the same time over Chungking on the 29th.

I would have thought this would overwhelm my CAP of almost 80 planes, but we again came out ahead. The pilot disparity I'd hoped to achieve may in fact be seeing results already, which I didn't expect. They have been sweeping very regularly, and losing a lot of airframes regularly, so morale and fatigue could be factors as well as airframe damage and fatigue. Our fighters and pilots are in good shape, with high morale, fatigue in the teens and growing kill counts. Again we lose only 4 pilots KIA on the day with another 6 WIA (total globally). Near Paoshan the tank army again suffers a negative DA against the ragtag Chinese units trying to delay their move into Paoshan.

The Japanese bomber count is 90 for the 29th (against the units near Paoshan) and 69 for the 30th (against a stranded Corps near Pakhoi). Supply fills units at Sian again and Wenchow has the highest supply count in over a year at 5500+.

OZ: Cue is in Allied hands and an armor unit is now on the way to Meekathera.

SIGINT: This is actually nice to see. Paoshan is doomed eventually, but this could mean a delay having to reprep for Chungking after that battle finishes. Or maybe he'll give it a try without the HQ prep, which is also good for us.

Two more divisions bought out for island defenses.

China Expeditionary Army is planning for an attack on Paoshan.
25/53rd Division is loaded on a Husimi Cargo class xAK moving to Truk.
36/116th Division is loaded on a Japanese xAK moving to Saipan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 29, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 123

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 43
F6F-3 Hellcat x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
41 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet
22 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet
20 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 66,44 (near Paoshan)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 8698 troops, 207 guns, 556 vehicles, Assault Value = 401

Defending force 15230 troops, 60 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 339

Japanese adjusted assault: 63

Allied adjusted defense: 265

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), fatigue(-), morale(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
175 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
850 casualties reported
Squads: 26 destroyed, 50 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Assaulting units:
18th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
8th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
49th Chinese Division
5th New Chinese Corps
3rd Chinese Cavalry Corps
10th Chinese Corps
55th Prov Chinese Division
49th Chinese Corps
13th Chinese Base Force
80th Chinese Corps
5th Group Army
62nd Chinese Corps
10th Construction Regiment
34th Chinese Corps
Lusu War Area
33rd Base Group
72nd Chinese Corps
11th Group Army
32nd Chinese Corps
56th Chinese Corps
16th Chinese Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Dambulla (30,47)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 20663 troops, 248 guns, 158 vehicles, Assault Value = 721

Defending force 5367 troops, 32 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 158

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 325

Japanese adjusted defense: 85

Allied assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1014 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 16 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 14 (4 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units destroyed 2

Allied ground losses:
650 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 87 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 10 (1 destroyed, 9 disabled)

Assaulting units:
159th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
102nd(Sep) Infantry Regiment
46th Indian Brigade
29th British Brigade
158th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
111th LRP Brigade
188th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
10th Garrison Unit
11th Garrison Unit
22nd Special Base Force
36th JAAF AF Bn
3rd Provisional Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR April 30, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Dambulla (30,47)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 17133 troops, 200 guns, 117 vehicles, Assault Value = 654

Defending force 4464 troops, 28 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 97

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 1

Allied adjusted assault: 388

Japanese adjusted defense: 49

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 1)

Allied forces CAPTURE Dambulla !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
fatigue(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1647 casualties reported
Squads: 49 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 56 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 11 (10 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Units retreated 3

Allied ground losses:
187 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Units pursuing 1

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Buna (99,129)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 1911 troops, 14 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 70

Defending force 414 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 14

Allied adjusted assault: 70

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 70 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Buna !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: leaders(+)

Japanese ground losses:
151 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 12 (5 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Allied ground losses:
49 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
112th Cavalry Regiment

Defending units:
61st Nav Gd /1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Almost a 3:1 ratio against some of his best air groups, and without even the advantage of radar at the base.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/24/2015 7:43:13 PM >

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RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 3:19:28 PM

obvert

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The Air War in China

Here is a map showing airfield sizes in China now. What jumps at me right away is that Nick's big airfields in range of Chungking for his Tojos are not on the rail lines. Kweiyang and Chikhiang are thus becoming potentially vulnerable as we inch closer in India. Ledo is only 15 hexes from Kweiyang, easy range for a B-24. Chikhiang is still in the normal zone for the RAF LR Liberator II and other B-24D at extended range.

On top of this there is enough supply that it might be useful to actually hit them from Chungking with about 60 B-25D1. That could cause a very bad day if there is not sufficient flak and if the CAP is down or even minimal.

As it is we're running a consistent average of 2:1 kills over Chungking and I would estimate a much higher ratio of expert pilot attrition (based on decreasingly effective Japanese results).

For the bombers Hankow and Canton are the only level 9 bases, 11 and 14 hexes away respectively. This means he is likely using Henyang and Kweilin for his Sallys to get the full bomb load. That could limit his total strike size to Chungking right now thinking about airfield limits.

Paoshan is now in the supply positive realm with all units fully supplied. I will continue to ramp up flights here and now begin flying to the units being sieged by the IJA tanks one hex away, who are nearly out of supply now. Nick is showing movement to Paoshan from the South, but has been for much longer than needed to cross, so this is either a feint or he resets them periodically to sync with his expected move by the tanks into the city that is being delayed.

Chungking has 3400AV of the best remaining Chinese Corps, and one more will move in to push the totals to around 3700AV. The HQs all have the best that can be bought for China, so I'm hoping for some initially good results here with the 6 forts and x2 terrain bonus, especially if he DAs before he can bomb the troops.

If someone had told me at the beginning I'd still have Chinese oil, still have Chungking with 18k supply and 6 forts, still have open hex sides around it and one mountain base holding out in mid 43, I would have been more than pleased. This is a really positive situation for the Allies, and it continues to cost Japan supplies, troops and airframes (HI) to fight here. I'll do everything I can to keep that going.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/24/2015 4:28:59 PM >

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Post #: 1693

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 6:04:29 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/24/2015 7:05:37 PM >

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Post #: 1694

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 6:35:42 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.

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Post #: 1695

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 6:52:47 PM

obvert

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SW PAC

Hers is a pic of the situation in the South Pacific. Buna and Oro Bay along with Milne Bay will become the bases to support a landing at PM. I can effectively limit any CV intervention once they're built up enough to support a decent CAP. I've begun moving CV/CVE along with the newly upgraded APA/AKA to Brisbane to load up for PM. It'll be about two weeks before the invasion, so that should be enough time for some fields and AS to be ready at Buna and Oro Bay.

In the meantime I'll work on Horn Island with the 4Es and attempt some small landings on the West side of the Gulf of Carpentaria to further extend early warning search and give him something else to think about.

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Post #: 1696

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 6:58:55 PM

ny59giants

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Horn Island - I took the base, but I needed to devote some attention to Merauke (LRCAP over Horn from here). Build up Portland Roads, put a few AE/AKEs in maxed out base, and use those old, slow BBs to crush that base with LRCAP overhead. Rinse, Repeat!!

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Post #: 1697

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:09:59 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.

But assume it's just increased supply burn. Chungking is STILL a unique case under the game design due to the resurrection rule. (Chengtu's status in the manual is unclear to me. While it is the second tier entry city if Chungking falls, the manual is not explicit if resurrection rule transfers to Chengtu, or if only regularly-scheduled OOB arrivals do.)

About a year ago there was a long thread, which Symon participated in, arguing that the resurrection rule shouldn't make any difference. The assumption was a stock Chungking which was massively over-stacked would be at zero supply anyway, so what's the diff? I believe crsutton was the lone voice arguing against that theory. Well, let me join him.

In my stock game I have over 420,000 troops in Chungking. All hex sides are closed and have been for about a year. Something less than 10 major attacks have occurred there. And there is a lot of supply present in the LCUs in garrison. I can't say how much for OPSEC, but non-trivial amounts. With SLs there would be zero. And the base would have fallen by now. Lokasenna knows or suspects this from the combat results he's seen. I just don't want to serve him exact numbers.

Without taking away from your very good play in China, GJ has let you off the mat. It's odd too, as the thread I read was his, started in his game with Q-Ball when he was on the other side. He's thought about Chungking sieges a lot. But here he screwed the pooch. Your screen shot shows how badly he failed to build the needed AFs to do Chungking well. At this point, given you have open hexsides, supply, and can operate a 150-plane CAP in mid-China (!!!) with 3rd gen fighters, he should give up on Chungking, withdraw to a defense line, and wait for you. SLs do work well in the bush, forcing a maneuver war. He can use that for a time. The one place they're crippling is Chungking.

But here I'll go out on a limb and say something outrageous. (The forum is way too calm these days.)

In an SL game it is strategic malpractice to invade India.

In a non-SL game it's pretty dumb too, unless there is an all-out drive for auto-victory. For all the reasons often beaten about. Distance, size, RR network, delay getting there, diversion of effort, inability to hold it past mid-war at best, etc, etc.

But in an SL game, the ROI (Alfred's term, well considered) of India versus China is terrible. And the main reason is that ole resurrection rule. It only exists in ONE city in the game. In stock it works well to balance the Allies' supply woes in China. Destroyed LCUs come back weak, but come back "free." It allows Chungking, a really massive VP pool, to be defended. At least for a while.

But with SLs, if Japan plays properly, it is a hammer. Anyone playing Japan in an SL game would be wise to undertake some form of the following (N.B. this assumes INSTANT execution of the strategy, from 12/8/41. NO dilly-dallying):

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

3. Destroy the Chinese air force. This takes a month, tops. They're flying biplanes. Nates can even work.

4. Leave Sian and Changsha alone. They're for later. Chungking is the target.

5. Run xAKL supplies up the river and establish a large supply node at Wuchang. The AI does this every game. Maybe Japan players do it, but I see few mention it.

6. Take an AF in bombing range of Chungking. Proceed to burn down its industry. This should take at most six weeks. During this time the armored spearhead, whose function is hexside control, moves to Chungking. Probably generally west and then SE from Kienko. Alternatively NE from Kwieyang. Just get there. The Chinese have no AT weapons to speak of. Routing casualties will be massive.

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

8. Close Chungking's hexsides with armor and air power. The city should be on stored supply plus 420/day organic by now. This is about two months in now. Chinese LCUs should still have terrible leaders, terrible morale, terrible training levels. This step cannot wait until June-Aug. February is the month. As I said, don't dink around at Sian, Lanchow, Changsha. Leave them alone. If Chengtu looks easy, take it. It's very valuable right away. Otherwise wait.

9. Once Chungking is hex isolated with industry destroyed, proceed to drop resurrected LCUs in as fast as possible. Redeploy the tanks to get this done. Get Chungking over the stacking limit and keep increasing it. At this point China becomes "conventional" for a number of months.

10. When Chungking is ripe, when supply is truly at zero and this has had morale and disruption effects, probably toward Oct-Nov 1942, attack it with overwhelming force just as the first auto-vic checks are coming due. The garrison ought to be something like 400,000 men, so there's VPs for that. The city itself is a 2200ish VP swing from both directions.

The keys are not being shy about taking out the industry, and forcing your Japanese self to ignore Sian and Changsha for a time. If those garrisons come out to fight, good, If they squat, let them. Later you can peel them one LCU at a time and send the ghosts to a completely unsupplied Chungking.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/24/2015 8:34:47 PM >

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Post #: 1698

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:11:11 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.

The air bridge helps, but the Allies don't begin to have the transports needed until well into 1942. If Japan plays China correctly Chungking will be gone before air transport can really help.

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Post #: 1699

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:17:56 PM

witpqs

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quote:

Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.

Have not read the rest of your post yet...

You haven't found the latest on that (Alfred probably has a link up his sleeve!), which came about IIRC when Michael checked the code. There is the supply hit, a disruption hit, and a fatigue hit. Don't recall anything else but I am going from memory. The disruption and fatigue hits are not huge, but there. The supply hit has to be managed (when deliberately over stacking). The supply hit can be outright devastating.

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Post #: 1700

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:23:45 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.

Have not read the rest of your post yet...

You haven't found the latest on that (Alfred probably has a link up his sleeve!), which came about IIRC when Michael checked the code. There is the supply hit, a disruption hit, and a fatigue hit. Don't recall anything else but I am going from memory. The disruption and fatigue hits are not huge, but there. The supply hit has to be managed (when deliberately over stacking). The supply hit can be outright devastating.

I had a small discussion with Jocke in one of his AARs about the other hits; he was certain they were there. I tried to be conservative as I have no first-hand with SLs. I did find some discussion of a 1-5 point disruption hit for over-stacking, but uncertainty if it scaled with increased hex population.

A main goal of mine was to reject the claims made in the thread I did find that in stock a massively over-stacked Chungking will also be at zero supply. It won't be.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/24/2015 8:24:28 PM >

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Post #: 1701

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:25:48 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Horn Island - I took the base, but I needed to devote some attention to Merauke (LRCAP over Horn from here). Build up Portland Roads, put a few AE/AKEs in maxed out base, and use those old, slow BBs to crush that base with LRCAP overhead. Rinse, Repeat!!

I'm on step 1 out of 4 or 5.

Building Portland Roads, which is at level 5 now. Just sunk the ACM in the Horn Island port. Will now sweep for mines. Then I'll get a few AKE up there and start in with the old ladies.

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Post #: 1702

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:32:52 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

The one thing about SL in a game is that the Japanese player "has" to move into India to cut off the flow of supply to China. In order to defeat Chinese stacks with SL they have to be very low on supply. If the supply is not cut then you won't move those units.

I disagree here. A dictionary will drive a nail, but it's the wrong tool. Cutting off Chinese supply is immensely easier from the China side. Take Tsuyung and it's pretty much stoppered. India takes an opposed landing, importing air power, fighting Brit, Aussies, and Indian troops which have armor and lots of supply, and a slog all the way north to the cut-off. That's after Japan deals with Rangoon, so months into the war. China is much easier with bad Chinese troops, air power galore already in theater, tanks, and supply at their backs.

I could be wrong, but I think crsutton is referring to an air bridge, much like what Mr Kane has used successfully, from Ledo and other Indian bases in range of Chengtu and the central plains. I would say it would have been much easier to defend in China had I been able to fly a few hundred supply a day even into Chengtu. Nick also seems to want to keep me from doing that as he's camped a bunch of the IJA in far NE India around Dimapur.

The air bridge helps, but the Allies don't begin to have the transports needed until well into 1942. If Japan plays China correctly Chungking will be gone before air transport can really help.

I have a different view. China can be defended with SL. I've seen it done without SL, but the Japanese player definitely didn't go all in. Nick did go all-in, but he gave a few months reprieve from heavy bombing. He made up for that later. I'm sure he can tell you what mistakes he made, but I know which ones I made and they were not necessary. I could be in a somewhat better position right now had I done a few things differently tactically.

The DBB team gets it right here. Flak makes bombing well defended bases much harder, the SL make pounding one hex take longer. I don't know if there is a database change as well, but the Chinese Corps in DBB come with a good amount of AT guns, and they can hold up even the Japanese tank divisions for a time.

Against a solid player the Japanese will need at least a full year to get to Chungking (with some luck added in and without any extra supply flown in) and that's if they go full bore with everything from the start, including introducing non-restricted units into the fray. So then we have to start talking opportunity costs. With extra supply they might not make it at all.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/24/2015 8:34:55 PM >

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Post #: 1703

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:37:03 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

Just back from a trip through Search looking at stacking limits threads of yore. Seems even to recent days there is disagreement on what exactly the effects are of over-stacking. Some argue vociferously that there is an added disruption/morale hit over time, others claim the DBB team stated with great certainty that there is ONLY the supply usage hit, which is not linear, seen in the stock game on non-unlimited stacking islands. Does this matter re Chungking? Some.

Have not read the rest of your post yet...

You haven't found the latest on that (Alfred probably has a link up his sleeve!), which came about IIRC when Michael checked the code. There is the supply hit, a disruption hit, and a fatigue hit. Don't recall anything else but I am going from memory. The disruption and fatigue hits are not huge, but there. The supply hit has to be managed (when deliberately over stacking). The supply hit can be outright devastating.

I had a small discussion with Jocke in one of his AARs about the other hits; he was certain they were there. I tried to be conservative as I have no first-hand with SLs. I did find some discussion of a 1-5 point disruption hit for over-stacking, but uncertainty if it scaled with increased hex population.

A main goal of mine was to reject the claims made in the thread I did find that in stock a massively over-stacked Chungking will also be at zero supply. It won't be.

I can attest to the increased disruption and fatigue as results of overstacking. I'll show some examples soon, as I happen to be in an overstacked position right now.

The key with SL is to plan for retreats. I often have moved rear units out of the next hex back in the case of a retreat in a forward hex. Of course you can't always plan where units will retreat and that's when things get dicey. There is a bit of luck involved as we know.

PS - Also, the resurrection rule does apply to Chengtu. If you own it but not Chungking units in the Chinese queue will be spawned there including zombies.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/24/2015 8:42:22 PM >

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RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 7:39:39 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Sorry, he didn't go all in. He went to India.

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Post #: 1705

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 8:26:43 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Without taking away from your very good play in China, GJ has let you off the mat. It's odd too, as the thread I read was his, started in his game with Q-Ball when he was on the other side. He's thought about Chungking sieges a lot. But here he screwed the pooch. Your screen shot shows how badly he failed to build the needed AFs to do Chungking well. At this point, given you have open hexsides, supply, and can operate a 150-plane CAP in mid-China (!!!) with 3rd gen fighters, he should give up on Chungking, withdraw to a defense line, and wait for you. SLs do work well in the bush, forcing a maneuver war. He can use that for a time. The one place they're crippling is Chungking.

I think he's simply played a different kind of war here. He's moving to contain, separate then squeeze, like a python, rather than a quick viper's strike. (At least after the debacle in Sian in early 42).

In not building more big airfields he may be thinking of his supply constraints, and those might dictate some things, the PDU-off might dictate others. To be fair, hitting Chungking is not as easy as in a stock game. I've had CAP here intermittently throughout the game, often including very good airframes that he'd have to overwhelm with numbers. He's done that on occasions, and he probably should have hit the industry, but we do have HRs on strat bombing allowing onl manpower attacks and an increasing scale of bombers for night strikes, (50 for 42 and 100 in 43). I know you're not a fan of HRs but this one will help the Japanese more than me over the course of the game, I'd say.

Even the comparatively poor Chinese AA will do some damage. He loses several planes a day from 15k when bombing Chungking with 100 2E, and gets decent hits on the fields but not as much on the manpower. (This still hurts me, as the AA takes a good bunch of supply).

Strat bombing:

manpower strikes allowed during daylight
manpower strikes allowed during night with sliding scale:

25 planes/target in 41
50 planes/target in 42
100 planes/target in 43
200 planes/target in 44
400 planes/target in 45-46.

quote:

In an SL game it is strategic malpractice to invade India.

If Calcutta's industry was taken intact taking India would have been a good move in this game. Rader proved what that could do for the Japanese, using the extra supply to both spur second tier objectives and to push industry and RnD beyond normal levels. (Too bad he left his back door open!)

To use your list you'd have to have some different conditions than the DBB game we're playing. These are very good ideas, and other than the strat bombing, similar to how I took China in my two games as Japan. I'll tackle this out of order as some things require explanation first to get to the others.

quote:

6. Take an AF in bombing range of Chungking. Proceed to burn down its industry. This should take at most six weeks. During this time the armored spearhead, whose function is hexside control, moves to Chungking. Probably generally west and then SE from Kienko. Alternatively NE from Kwieyang. Just get there. The Chinese have no AT weapons to speak of. Routing casualties will be massive.

In DBB the Chinese have 37mm AT guns in most big Corps to start as well as two independent units with these guns. It makes a big difference. They won't kill as many tanks as I'd like, but they do damage them, and that ends up making him rotate units and rest others, taking time.

quote:

1. Form IJA armor into a spearhead. Aim it at Chungking. Follow with infantry. Leave the arty behind.

The heavy siege arty the Japanese possess is their best weapon in China with SL. In a stuck spot he brings in 27-32 inch siege guns and blasts away for weeks until supply is gone, units are totally disrupted and have 100s of disabled squads, and then the tanks come to push through, once the AT guns are less effective.

quote:

2. Form a combined-arms spearhead in the SE and move aggressively west, taking the RR. The target is a stopper at Tsuyung.

The SL in the mountains is hex after hex of 20k and x3 terrain. You don't move through that quickly. Period. That's one division or one tank division with some arty. That's all. The Chinese can put 500AV in each hex and build a few forts. It often takes a month to blast through each hex with concentrated air power and bombardments, plus rotating units in and out.

quote:

3. Destroy the Chinese air force. This takes a month, tops. They're flying biplanes. Nates can even work.

The Chinese air force never fights in China. It moves to India immediately. There they train and take a rear CAP role. The bombers hunt subs.

The AVG moves into China as opportunity allows. If the Japanese are flying anything other than A6M with expert pilots the AVG racks up kills each time it appears, taking out lightly defended bombing runs and forcing the Japanese to move in their best fighter groups. Then they fly out before facing them. Upgrade airframe. Repeat. With PDU-of the Tojo groups are limited and the P40K seems to do well against them in defense.

quote:

4. Leave Sian and Changsha alone. They're for later. Chungking is the target.

After the first battle of Sain, Nick did leave both of these alone until he could no longer leave Changsha. That base gets a ton of supply and can rebuild units, supply the areas around it and also support the air infusions of the AVG right in the middle of the country where they can strike any number of areas.

quote:

5. Run xAKL supplies up the river and establish a large supply node at Wuchang. The AI does this every game. Maybe Japan players do it, but I see few mention it.

Not necessary, as supply moves well from Shanghai into central China. Wastes fuel. Also, if my opponent was doing this I would have sunk those xAKL if Changsha was left untaken.

quote:

7. Move non-AV LCUs out of the M. Garrison and into the SE sector. Proceed to mop up lone Chinese LCUs and set them into the resurrection queue. Begin this on 12/8/41 as well.

There are few lone Chinese Corps if the Allied player is diligent in moving them back behind the lines. Early I let 4-5 tiny ones die blocking the rails. After this anything small is in the rear.

quote:

8. Close Chungking's hexsides with armor and air power. The city should be on stored supply plus 420/day organic by now. This is about two months in now. Chinese LCUs should still have terrible leaders, terrible morale, terrible training levels. This step cannot wait until June-Aug. February is the month. As I said, don't dink around at Sian, Lanchow, Changsha. Leave them alone. If Chengtu looks easy, take it. It's very valuable right away. Otherwise wait.

For all of the above reasons you never will get there in two months. Or four months. Or six months. In SL it takes much longer with good play. Even with good play from both sides it should take a year, minimum, to get near Chungking. Then even it's difficult to close all hex sides.

Another issue with the quickness of your schedule is that the IJA doesn't have the components of the tank divisions to buy out immediately from Manchuria. They come throughout the beginning of 42 and into April or around there. You don't have tank divisions in the beginning and the little regiments can't hold up to sustained combat.

Right now Nick is fighting with a maxed hex between Kweiyang and Chungking, and none of the four Corps there are full of supply (one has none). Only three of the four have forts built. Yet still in two attacks he's gotten negative results costing 300+ disabled infantry squads to about 50 for the Chinese. This is even with air strikes and very experienced Japanese units. One of my units is a zombie with no arty at all even, but I wanted to see how the Chinese 43 squads would do. Seems like they're good!

If I had an air bridge it wouldn't even matter that he takes out the industry at Chungking. I just keep applying more transports as they arrive.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/24/2015 11:56:35 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1706

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 9:10:18 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Sorry, he didn't go all in. He went to India.

I see what you're trying to say, but in SL it's just a different game. More troops wouldn't necessarily have made things go more quickly. With SL it's not advisable to get stuck in a non-road hex with equal numbers. It leads to stalemate as was the case in several places in 42.

So your best bet is to go with road hexes where supply movement allows you to bombard daily, DA as often as disruption and fatigue will allow, and to be able to quickly rotate fresh units in and out. This is the main feature of SL (and DBB) that is different than in stock, and I think closer to a real situation. Your can't go around, you can't break through quickly, so you have to grind it out.

He had enough units to always have fresh ones in the rear along each thrust path. The number of good troops was not the problem, and he did use ALL of the tanks here (other than a few 50AV regiments in OZ and India). He used seemingly every big arty gun available from Manchuria.

He used all of the IJAAF 2E bomber forces after the initial SRA and PI areas were taken. He used a number of expert IJN fighter and bomber groups, to the point where the So Pac and Cent Pac areas were thin and I was able to move there. Some of the air force was in India, fighters of course, but not a lot of bombers, and not much in OZ. He didn't need them there.

China is just tougher in DBB than in stock.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/24/2015 11:26:02 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 1707

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 9:35:17 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

THIS:

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

The key with SL is to plan for retreats.

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(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1708

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 10:34:54 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I have a different view. China can be defended with SL. I've seen it done without SL, but the Japanese player definitely didn't go all in.

Not against evenly-matched players.

Nick did go all-in,

No, he didn't. Not to mention the HR which hamstrung him.

but he gave a few months reprieve from heavy bombing. He made up for that later. I'm sure he can tell you what mistakes he made, but I know which ones I made and they were not necessary. I could be in a somewhat better position right now had I done a few things differently tactically.

The DBB team gets it right here. Flak makes bombing well defended bases much harder,

The flak changes are available outside DBB. We're playing with them. Not decisive.

the SL make pounding one hex take longer.

This is what I see over and over. Japan players who go into the bush after the Chinese. All this talk of MLRs. Poo. I'm saying use your mobility. Don't pound, go around. Tanks. They haven't got any. I'm talking RIGHJT AWAY. Not in the summer. Not after they get organized.

I don't know if there is a database change as well, but the Chinese Corps in DBB come with a good amount of AT guns, and they can hold up even the Japanese tank divisions for a time.

Chinese corps in stock Scenario 1 have between 7 and 8 working 37mm AT guns per. They just don't have the leadership or training to use them. They're there. The IJA tanks eat them for lunch. I doubt DBB went into that. It's not an EXE mod. And the tanks can easily outrun the corps.

Against a solid player the Japanese will need at least a full year to get to Chungking

Baloney. Show me an ARR where Japan DIDN'T go for Sian or Changsha. Show me one where they did what I'm talking about. They all go head-to-head in bad terrain. Over and over.

(with some luck added in and without any extra supply flown in) and that's if they go full bore with everything from the start, including introducing non-restricted units into the fray. So then we have to start talking opportunity costs. With extra supply they might not make it at all.

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The Moose

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Post #: 1709

RE: ::Felix, Ferdinand and FRUPAC:: obvert (A) v Greyjo... - 1/24/2015 10:53:07 PM

Lokasenna

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Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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I'm with the Moose on this one. Well, and every time it comes up. If the map looks like this in China in 1943... it's Japan's fault. Always. In this game, GJ took a boneheaded route to Sian and you caught him on it.

Also, you say he used the entire IJAAF available to him here... if so, he didn't take advantage of that. The proximate cause here could be his plans for India. Where's all his armor? It went to India, right? I understand that the Chinese have some AT weapons in DBB, but as Japan you can still deal with that.

Granted our game has no SLs, but there's no reason GJ couldn't have been where I was on Feb 2, 1942, given the amount of time it took me to get organized to get Liuchow/Kweilin/Kweiyang:

It took me ~2 weeks longer than it should have to get this far. I was distracted with some of the SRA, and in retrospect I didn't need to put the effort in down there, even if it meant delays.

You have to get to the central valley as soon as possible. You can mop up later. I made the mistake of mopping up too much before hitting Chungking, but in a SL game that would be exactly the correct course of action.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 1/24/2015 11:56:32 PM >

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Post #: 1710

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