Simple question about play balance

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Simple question about play balance

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Simple question about play balance - 3/15/2001 7:14:00 PM

FEETUPHAVINABEER

Posts: 11
Joined: 2/2/2001
From: OZ
Status: offline

As someone that is a newbie to this game but my roots go back to: AHill panzerblitz/AHpanzerleader/SPI Panzer 44 (great game)/SPI yom kippur war (my favourite)/ RED star white star/SPI war in europe(game completed with 5 players took a calendar year!!!) etc etc I really enjoy this game and almost am ready to look forward to death....(awaiting slaughter by pbem)BUT BUT BUT ...... it appears to me the orbat in this is a bit wacky in the ww2 campaign. I have decided to play the British as I know most of the weapons etc and this nation is not that popular (someone has got to help them) and have so far vs ai given the germans a conistant but good kicking in the desert as you would reasonably expect(notwithstanding everyone is a closet panzer leader[me too] ie. (no churchill interferance no Rommell cypher breaks) No focus on quantity old versus quality new. etc (since SHERMAN III ...... dont ask about prior efforts unless you have similar tales of cruiser mk4 woe) Having got to my first amphib landing (see previous post in my view 'the way amphib is handled is a big disadvantage to allies') Amphib should have a 'simple off board player set up use matrix'. This would enable the attacker to have choice loading his landing craft (this is a major factor) AMPHIB SHOULD BE.... 'Pure and simple'.... one screen no moving ,loading, unloading, complexity etc graphics 3min job in excel. thats the end of my pc knowledge so I wont lecture any more if it worked,,, assault waves can properly be put together without the load backload problem and all the other problems of LC suck in etc. (promise I wont even make the LCI go in circles)!!!! Further I am totally mystified by the way italian artillery is handled. I know the knowledge levels are VERY VERY VERY low here re NAVOPS but lets face it if I was to be subjected to 12 inch naval bombarment on the beach of my invasion from italian(ANY) warships I wouldnt be there. Not withstanding above I cop it every turn making engineer mine clearance a suicidal operation. To make matters worse the game engine dares to suggest these same guns counter battery my heavy cruiser eight inch. By 1943(1942) (late 1941??? post Colloni engagement) no axis surface units of any size should be operating off the coast of Africa. It could be argued that its just a bit of artillery and it makes your casualties like the italians fairer but this is ludicrous. These sorts of arguments are slippery slope ones that SPI looked at long ago in Europe games and I can tell you discussion in S&T forums always pushed the historical accuracy line in the end despite heated discussion. Conclusion was always that the way to make a good game from unbalanced forces was through vp. This is really easy in long campaigns but I admit I have no answer for short campaigns. The reason in europe all 'what ifs' ultimately fall flat for Germany without vp based adjustment is of course the A-Bomb. The A-bomb was symtomatic of Allied )mainly US industrial capacity)superiority and should be reflected in these games if German production so called what ifs are. (German ludicrous what ifs are always represeted in many German WW2 orbats. More importantly fundamental prod options such as stug3, mk4, Hetzer, JGpz4 vanish despite industrial reality at the touch of a key. All, suprise, suprise are replaced by best of the best. personally Id balance this with tac nukes. ((Actually more believable when you think about it than the german BMW/Mercedes/FORD option)) We have all seen the German special AFV prod figures. (you german players know the ones its the units you like in 44/45 with hobby farm prod stats.)GG handles it masterfully in war in Russia through factories.We need an equivalent to address all what ifs in current game . Players of SPI's global war will remember that it was always worth invading CANADA and the US notwithstanding inevitable failure just to delay the bomb because it could be dropped on germany. Typcally this cost the German player thousands of tank equ. One wonders how this is kept all in balance in this game. me for one will belive the mechanics are working when my bren carrier moves over a hill and i sight german horses towing a field gun in 1944.

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- 3/16/2001 4:55:00 AM

MindSpy

Posts: 272
Joined: 5/13/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline

MINDSPY You know I still remember that game of SPI Red Star White Star. It closely resembled in some ways the SP3 available in later years. And both games had Command and Control rules. You know we could probably sit here for the rest of the afternoon and into the early evening relating how other Board Games handled the various topics from every unit havin to pay 1 point extra for each friendly unit having used the same hex to the extra points engaging in combat represent for both movement and orders to just simply the acknowledgement that units from different countries did not operate or function in the same way so you must Learn the rules of play for each unit type and country and command structures as well !!! ... But alas we won't! It is true that the SP games are based on the assumption that a tank unit moves like a tank unit in the game without regard to unit type, country, command structure, or other, nor even supply considerations! (other can mean Partisan acquisition of a unit from a factory it can also mean a battlefield goody held back from corps knowingly and used for as long as possible until found out or until a unit has to call in air support forcing it's acknowledgement!--or friendly fire!!-friendly fire which if taken could lead to someone's courtmartial once that hidden from corps unit is found out about). Now to mention this to Forum hard core gamers is tantamount to being chased thread to thread with insignificant and pointless comments that are not in the best interests of improved game play or historical content! Heck in the game you can neither accidentally shoot nor knowingly fire on your own units with direct fire weapon types! (your opponents forces must be present for this to occur--yet? in real life ... ) So being the Harbinger of the game's limitations can make you susceptible to constant annoying postings from the more feeble or even worse inflammatory emails from even more feeble minded player aliases. It is ironic. You are not only correct it is obvious. no I don't believe there should be an IQ requirement to see that as it is the primary find when you engage in historical reading. My only suggestion to you is to ignore the game's more extreme problems that flow from the base programming assumptions. To focus your game play on design your own and find your own simialr players who not only understand what you are talking about but have the ability to attempt to comprehend and eventually become competent with what you have stated. Neither one of us will succeed in making Arcade players perform on the level you suggest. Neither one of us will succeed in finding similar player types among those who have not read or mastered the rules of the games you have mentioned. Nor even read the amount of history you have clearly demonstrated to us from your inital posting. The only thing to do in such situations is to remember that when playing arcade games -- play the arcade game stle.[Certainly there are bizarre results--all indirect fire is indirect fire and all tank units are tank units etc .] When involved in the more precise and challenging historical games however in addition to the game itself you can now send special rules that reflect the historical considerations.[You must drop your arty here or within this area -- you must attack into the town on turn "X" as this was the order sent to the units in the historical -- you must use units in a human wave or rush up the beach mines or no mines! -- you must use the road only! etc.] These rules do a lot to enhance game play. A historical battle can be fought and the flags involved can be made to reflect their countries predisposing doctrine or fighting style or how the battle itself shaped up. Also, victory points can be assigned for the capture of flags with or without the knowing of your opponent. Now your run of the mill arcade palyer will not accept these and quite simply why bother but there are players out there who are willing to play with the simpler arcade style and to engage in the more challenging problem of Real to Game: Incorporate it: Depict it. These players can read and will accept further rules that are given to you in text form and are not a part of the game. You need only find us. MINDSPY

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(in reply to FEETUPHAVINABEER)

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