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- 2/26/2003 5:59:04 AM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline 		Actually I think it's a simple fix (IMHO). Give the 20-25mm guns the HE Pen they need/deserve and reduce the HE kill of the 12.7-15mm weapons a bit.

[QUOTE]The reason the quad 50's kill ALL the time is because of the super inflated (IMHO) HE kill value of 36! I've experimented and brought this down to HE kill of 7 for the single 50's, 12 for the twin 50cal and 18 for the quad 50's, this seems to work much better allowing some damaging shots as well as getting kills.[/QUOTE]

When I reduced the HE kill a bit I started to get more damages and less "kills". I believe the HE pen value is only checked to see if the weapon can penetrate the targets armour. Once it penetrates then the "HE Kill" value is applied. THAT determines the extent of damage on the target.


One way to see this is to give the .50cal a super HE Pen of 100 and a HE Kill of "1"...it will be less lethal than it is now but it will be able to penetrate about any AFV....it just won't kill it! :D At least not right away!

I've checked and double checked the 50cal HE pen value and it "acts" like a real 50cal should on lightly armed vehicles so I wouldn't go changing the PEN value but I would lower the KILL value. Remember everytime you hit an armored vehicle with the 50 and it penetrates the only thing going through the armor is tungsten steel slug with NO explosive capability at all. So unless it hits something that explodes it "generally" won't do more than poke holes in the armor.....this means it will take more than one "hit" with a 50cal-15mm HMG to take out an armored car/lt. tank etc. Which is more realistic (IMHO again) than sending an AC up in flames on the first hit. :D

Similar effect in Kuwait in '91...a Marine with a 50cal sniper rifle put three rounds through the front of a BRDM scout car (comparable to the 222-rad) at near 1500m IIRC and the crew bailed out and ran! No major damage to the BRDM just a few 1/2" holes appeared for ventilation all of a sudden!

I think this could be a simple OOB tweak that would bring some balance to the 20-25mm AA guns without having a major effect anywhere else. Of course someone may come along and poke holes in my theory but so far that's what I've found. :D

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Jeremy


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Post #: 31
- 2/26/2003 7:01:12 AM   
RobertS

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 10/4/2002
Status: offline 		That was a close one Overlord. I was ready to end it all there for a moment. It appears you are correct ...again. But this issue should be taken note of by person or persons planning to do further updates on these OOBs, because not being able to shoot anything down with a 20-25mm is pretty important!

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 32
- 2/26/2003 12:24:36 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Another serious bug, IMO, is that heavy mg's like .50 cal don't use the same set of rules than other mg's.

Now assume your tank has main gun, .50 AAMG, coax mg and hull mg. When you fire at target 10 hexes away, only the main gun should always fire. For any other weapons to fire crew must pass an experience check. However this is not the case with the heavy mg's that have AP pen values. They are considered as secondary cannons and will always fire.

This gives a big bonus to US troops as almost every one of their tanks have a .50 cal, meaning that whenever you fire at lightly armoured target you always have a backup mg shot with a rather high kill possibility coming up if you miss with the main gun.

One of the main reasons I dislike playing US, btw. Unfortunately as the only way to fix this is either remove AP penetration values from heavy mg's or do some code fixes, I guess the situation will stay. Though changing their weapon class from 'small gun' might also help..needs to be tested.


Voriax

_____________________________

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Post #: 33
- 2/26/2003 7:13:14 PM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Another serious bug, IMO, is that heavy mg's like .50 cal don't use the same set of rules than other mg's.

Now assume your tank has main gun, .50 AAMG, coax mg and hull mg. When you fire at target 10 hexes away, only the main gun should always fire. For any other weapons to fire crew must pass an experience check. However this is not the case with the heavy mg's that have AP pen values. They are considered as secondary cannons and will always fire.

This gives a big bonus to US troops as almost every one of their tanks have a .50 cal, meaning that whenever you fire at lightly armoured target you always have a backup mg shot with a rather high kill possibility coming up if you miss with the main gun.

One of the main reasons I dislike playing US, btw. Unfortunately as the only way to fix this is either remove AP penetration values from heavy mg's or do some code fixes, I guess the situation will stay. Though changing their weapon class from 'small gun' might also help..needs to be tested.


Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

I strongly agree with you.

Tanks destroyer like American M10, 18 or 36, when firing their main gun, has sometime temporary effect shock to themselve as it it not covered on top, espically the M36 with its 90mm gun. The tank also vibrate when such tank destroyer fire their gun.

The .5 on the M4 Sherman, the crew cannot in the copula to fire it. It acutally required one to stand outside and fire. But when the M4 in the game is suppressed, it still fire.

The other tank which has the bug, is a unit in Cezh catalogery. The tank is known as Pz 39H RAK. These tank are infact used in the desert by Rommel. It is actually the original French 39 H with attachement of Wuffrahmen 40 rockets, with the same configuration. In fact the only tank in the game that uses it 37mm gun to bombard is this tank. cause the game acutally place the 37mm as a secondary artillery to this tank.

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 34
Just a thought - 2/26/2003 9:02:30 PM   
Lars

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 7/19/2000
From: Västerås, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Another serious bug, IMO, is that heavy mg's like .50 cal don't use the same set of rules than other mg's.

Now assume your tank has main gun, .50 AAMG, coax mg and hull mg. When you fire at target 10 hexes away, only the main gun should always fire. For any other weapons to fire crew must pass an experience check. However this is not the case with the heavy mg's that have AP pen values. They are considered as secondary cannons and will always fire.

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

Is it possible to move the .50 cal to slot #4 instead?

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Post #: 35
Re: Just a thought - 2/26/2003 9:27:43 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lars
[B]Is it possible to move the .50 cal to slot #4 instead? [/B][/QUOTE]

I believe this would only alter the firing arc, not the possibility of fire. At least the two cannon tanks (Lee/Grant, Char's) always fire both of their guns. Feel free to experiment. :)

Voriax

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Post #: 36
Re: Re: Just a thought - 2/26/2003 10:00:58 PM   
Lars

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 7/19/2000
From: Västerås, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]I believe this would only alter the firing arc, not the possibility of fire. At least the two cannon tanks (Lee/Grant, Char's) always fire both of their guns. Feel free to experiment. :)

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

No, you're right. I don't think I need to test it... :(

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Post #: 37
- 2/27/2003 11:02:04 AM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		And the oobs are being overhauled even as we type ;)

First, you cannot change AP and HE Kill numbers without a coding effect on weapon graphics and sounds. This, unfortunately cannot be done with all weapons etc..

As for Pen. factors - does HE Pen. have an effect on planes? and can you verify this?

I have fixed many of the issues mentioned in this thread for the finale Matrix oobs.

Let me say that the oobs now in the works are to be completely compatible with the 7.1 oobs currently used. This is to ensure that all older scenarios and campaigns will work with these oobs and sceanrios/campaigns desgined in new oobs will work when crossed back over to 7.1 oobs. This is not an easy task.

Please keep posting your ideas on Pen factors and I'll be listening.

You should be please with the oobs currently in the works:D

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http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 38
- 2/28/2003 7:16:24 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		The problem with heavy mg's always firing isn't related to the class, but the fact that they have penetration values in the first place. Remove *both* AP and HE penetration and then they behave like every other machine gun.

However as I already hear the scream of 'unjust' I fear this won't change :)
I don't think that Matrix Guys are willing to make a code change that would make the 'chance to fire' probabilities same to all mg's...?

Voriax

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Post #: 39
Minor typo for weapon 84 - 3/1/2003 5:30:03 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		The satchel charge shows "size" as 222. Should be 2. Easy fix.

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Post #: 40
- 3/1/2003 11:34:41 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]The problem with heavy mg's always firing isn't related to the class, but the fact that they have penetration values in the first place. Remove *both* AP and HE penetration and then they behave like every other machine gun.

However as I already hear the scream of 'unjust' I fear this won't change :)
I don't think that Matrix Guys are willing to make a code change that would make the 'chance to fire' probabilities same to all mg's...?

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

The 50 Cal and 12.7 class HMGs are special class of HMGs. One reason for there evolution was to fill a need for an Anti-Armor role.

The Current Penetration factors this in. I fear that changing these will create unseen coding issues. These could be reduced but this needs more testing verses Aircraft as well as light armor. Any Volunteers?? :D

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Post #: 41
Re: Minor typo for weapon 84 - 3/6/2003 12:50:28 PM   
john g

 

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin
[B]The satchel charge shows "size" as 222. Should be 2. Easy fix. [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you sure that this isn't a flag value? Something like the 222 used for small autocannons?
thanks, John.

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 42
- 3/6/2003 1:20:45 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		The 50 cal co ax fire is a coding issue. I cannot stop these from firing in oob fix :(

Moving these to another weapon slot (slot 40) prevents these from 360 degree fire :(

Can someone give me the real armor Pen. a 50 cal armor piercing round can penatrate at 500 yards and at 1000 yards? as well as the normal round can penatrate?

This info can help me decide what to do with these values.

Next, for now, in game play and scenario design - a fix would be to switch the 50 cal co ax HMGs off - using the space bar command and select the 50 cal not to fire. Wild Bill does this often in his spwaw scenarios ;)

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Post #: 43
Re: Re: Minor typo for weapon 84 - 3/6/2003 2:47:03 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by john g
[B]Are you sure that this isn't a flag value? Something like the 222 used for small autocannons?
thanks, John. [/B][/QUOTE] The Satchel Charge is a secondary infantry class weapon, and shouldn't weapon size be similar to others in that class? The AT Mine is also size 2. Size 222 weapons are all classed as anti-aircraft weapons, like the 20mm Flak. Am I missing something here?

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 44
- 3/7/2003 12:02:27 PM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline 		Most of all, I hate it when infantry assault when close in and didnt use all their weapon instead. Instead, inorder they use their weapon, I have to T to target it and then C to select what weapon to use.

And our special sniper with gauss rifle is still around. When play German or any country with high experience, dont buy tanks, buy all sniper and a few counter artillery. The sniper chances to assault is high to destroy a tank complete (I dunno with what but most likely he travel through time and got hold of a gauss rifle).
I have tried this stupid way against human player and it work. I only need to concentrate on counter artillery and whenever a tank come near, it will be assault by a tank. The tank and infantry in it will be so badly suppressed.

I was wondering how the hell they come out the formulae for assault.

I realise this when my tanks was destroyed by a human player who is playing Russian. My crewman destroy all it tank back!!!! So I started with sniper and discover this great sniper of the future.

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 45
- 3/10/2003 12:09:21 AM   
Panzer Leo

 

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax
[B]Those 20mm guns you talk about..they have the weapon code 222 which means they only need one type of ammo, the AP. It's used either as HE or AP depending of target. They tend to have APCR which balances things a bit.

Voriax [/B][/QUOTE]

This was also a big issue while creating H2H - problem with the automatic cannons (kwks also, not just Flak) was exactly what is prescribed here - ineffectiveness and also an incredible inaccuracy. The "222" code weapons are supposed to only use HE and maybe some shots of APCR - the HE then should be counted as AP when it hits armor, but it does not work. Therefore ALL automaticcannons where applied with AP ammo. A 20mm in an SPW234/1 comes with HE, AP and APCR ammo load, e.g.

That is the only way I could get rid of the performence errors - after one year of extensive use no known sideefects or handicaps are known...works perfect...but is a lot of work ;)

The HE kill of multibarreled AA was also a big change in H2H - I can recommend the values used, battlefield behaviour is very realistic in terms of infantry kill and against planes...the whole heavy machine gun and autocannon stuff suffered a lot from not carefully tested changes in the last versions of SPWAW...

Feel free to use as much of H2H as you want - no need to do work twice and it is so often tested now under PBEM conditions and AI play, that these changes are bulletproof...

Starting to change some OOB errors is like open Pandora's box :D

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Mir nach, ich folge euch !

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Post #: 46
- 3/15/2003 2:09:24 AM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]This was also a big issue while creating H2H - problem with the automatic cannons (kwks also, not just Flak) was exactly what is prescribed here - ineffectiveness and also an incredible inaccuracy. The "222" code weapons are supposed to only use HE and maybe some shots of APCR - the HE then should be counted as AP when it hits armor, but it does not work. Therefore ALL automaticcannons where applied with AP ammo. A 20mm in an SPW234/1 comes with HE, AP and APCR ammo load, e.g.

That is the only way I could get rid of the performence errors - after one year of extensive use no known sideefects or handicaps are known...works perfect...but is a lot of work ;)

The HE kill of multibarreled AA was also a big change in H2H - I can recommend the values used, battlefield behaviour is very realistic in terms of infantry kill and against planes...the whole heavy machine gun and autocannon stuff suffered a lot from not carefully tested changes in the last versions of SPWAW...

Feel free to use as much of H2H as you want - no need to do work twice and it is so often tested now under PBEM conditions and AI play, that these changes are bulletproof...

Starting to change some OOB errors is like open Pandora's box :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Panzer Leo, your H2H is great, I downloaded it and take a look. But there is one major problem, can you rename all those unit back to English. Image if another person create another data and maybe call J2J and he uses Japanese.

One day Matrix realise that all the data you all have provided is so useful that they wanted to combine all together, we will have this problem of intergration of data. You use German for German unit and that guy use Japanese but Matrix use German. Then come a Polish old man before he died he created in Polish lanague for Polish unit. I think intergrating is a very big issue.

But overall your data is pretty accurate and nice to see picture which I never really have. I like some of your unit deployment which is pretty close to the OOB of German unit Book I have.

Overall you really did alot of different from the game I started to play about maybe a year or half before. That was really great but I really appreciate you could have a simple english version language for the German.:D

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 47
- 3/17/2003 12:10:11 AM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		The new OOBs are being finalized. Many a fix has gone into to improving combat results.

I did lessen the 50 cal and 12.7 HMG HE penetrates rates as these were too high but I also increase all other HMG's MMHs HE Penetration values to more WW II realistic levels.

HMG's will rain Havoc on Trucks and HT's if these get too close.

HMG, MMG, and LMG will suppress armor slightly more than before when fired from short ranges.

The Too Hit combat for armor combat has been improved and is now what it was originally designed to be. After much testing on this, Paul Vebbers Math for Armor - range - degree of slope work extremely well after the current fix. This means that Low experience crews will hit their target without any need to modify experience, morale, leader rates.

Most of the Formations have been fixed and the Italian OOBs are being cleaned up and I would like to personlly thank Ruxius for his help on these!

A little more formations checks and these should be done!

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Post #: 48
- 3/17/2003 2:18:41 AM   
TheOriginalOverlord

 

Posts: 440
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: The Marines
Status: offline 		Did the HE Kill for the .50cal/12.7's get adjusted down any?

How about the HE Pen for the 20mm AA guns, did it get any?


Thanks

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Jeremy


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Post #: 49
- 3/17/2003 3:25:34 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Where will it be posted when it is accomplished, I wish I could pay you guys some how.:D

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Post #: 50
BryanMelvin !! - 3/17/2003 7:48:25 AM   
Lars

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 7/19/2000
From: Västerås, Sweden
Status: offline 		Sorry for asking this in the wrong thread, but what can I do. This will be an official update and then maybe... :rolleyes:

It's about the asterisk ( * ) in the game. When playing PBEM if you have the "willy meter" set to unabled you can't change this in the game. BUT, if you play another game with the willy meter set to enabled and then moves over to the PBEM, then the willy meter is enabled there also. :(

This makes this thing an unsecured preference setting and that's also making it very unusable.
I like to play without it to make things more interesting, but if my partner chooses to switch it off, nothing will hinder him from doing so.

Would it be possible to make it a secure preference without too much trouble?

Thanks
/Lars

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Post #: 51
Re: BryanMelvin !! - 3/17/2003 1:14:30 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lars
[B]Sorry for asking this in the wrong thread, but what can I do. This will be an official update and then maybe... :rolleyes:

It's about the asterisk ( * ) in the game. When playing PBEM if you have the "willy meter" set to unabled you can't change this in the game. BUT, if you play another game with the willy meter set to enabled and then moves over to the PBEM, then the willy meter is enabled there also. :(

This makes this thing an unsecured preference setting and that's also making it very unusable.
I like to play without it to make things more interesting, but if my partner chooses to switch it off, nothing will hinder him from doing so.

Would it be possible to make it a secure preference without too much trouble?

Thanks
/Lars [/B][/QUOTE]

I am not sure - will look into it..

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Post #: 52
- 3/17/2003 1:22:55 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		Pnazer Leo - I sent a privet message to you about HMG movement issue - just in case it did not go thru since your email box was full when I sent it.

Spwaw is a You Go - I Go system. This is why the MMG-HMG fire and move creates game cheats. The side that moves these MGs first will have an advantage. A player moves - sets up his MGs to fire before the other player can move. If both sides moved in Real Time - the MMG-HMG fire and move feature would work. This was one main reason it was dropped from spwaw. As it is now, you would say to the other play hold up - I am setting up my MGs and after I do so - you can then move into my kill zone. Now. if both sides moved at same time - the other players side would be upon the MG team setting up its MG!

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Post #: 53
- 3/18/2003 2:00:05 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		I think you guys are gonna really like these changes Marauder and his team have accomplished. I feel the OOBs will be better than they have ever been before. Great material for a great game!

WB

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Post #: 54
Re: Re: BryanMelvin !! - 3/18/2003 8:04:29 AM   
Lars

 

Posts: 205
Joined: 7/19/2000
From: Västerås, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by BryanMelvin
[B]I am not sure - will look into it.. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Marauder! That's all I can ask for... :)

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Post #: 55
- 3/25/2003 3:13:25 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill
[B]I think you guys are gonna really like these changes Marauder and his team have accomplished. I feel the OOBs will be better than they have ever been before. Great material for a great game!

WB [/B][/QUOTE]

Could someone give us a status on the new OOBs? Gmenfan gives a link for the new OOBs at the beginning of this thread but I suspect that it isn't the final OOB files we are anticitpating. Will there be a General Announcement so that everyone can start migrating to these OOBs?

Thanks for the great work.
Bob

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Post #: 56
This is important Pleas Give me some feed back. - 3/25/2003 3:58:16 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I know its a little late to be bringing up changes, but I feel that the spotting meter I think its a # or something like that should be taken out of the game or changed quite a bit, if a units passes all the checks and spots a unit then great it spots the unit. Unless you really believe that a Truck Driver sitting in a truck , that is running, can really spot a Elite recon squad at 500 meters ! Or ( insert laughter here ) hear them, my fault sence them.


It just makes no sence that units just feel other units. I know you hear reports of such and yes it does happen ( with battle hardeded highly experienced troop ) but the game, does not potray it well; at best it should be a 30%-40% chance ( For elite troops ). And for units that are avarage, or have low experience, even lower, they should regularly be getting false positives as well, for example I have heard this option takes into account hearing someone but not seeing them, this is also one of the biggest reason for false positives. 1 ( the pig in the bush, or the dog or the civilian ect.... ) 2 ( just plain old inexperience and fear)

It should be less accurate and units with little combat experience should be getting a large amount of false positives. I know most like this option, but if it wrong it is wrong.

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 57
Re: This is important Pleas Give me some feed back. - 3/25/2003 10:58:00 PM   
BryanMelvin

 

Posts: 1555
Joined: 7/28/2000
From: Colorado, USA
Status: offline 		The Status on the new OOB is excellent :D

We are wrapping up the UK and CA oobs and after that - they'll be ready :cool:

I would say - they should be out in one to two weeks from now.

Next - as for spotting - this is in the mech.exe itself and not in oobs. I am not sure if a new mech exe update will be released any time soon.

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MarauderMel

http://www.wargamer.com/hosted/Steelpanthers/index.asp

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 58
Great news, Bryan! - 3/26/2003 5:44:45 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Let's see, the wife & daughter are going to visit the in-laws for a week starting April 17. Hmm... yes, the time frame is just about right to peruse the new "final" OOBs and start a new campaign without interruption, except for going to work and answering the phone. "No, I can't make it to the office today...think I've got...uh, trigger finger!" ;)

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 59
Re: Great news, Bryan! - 3/28/2003 11:58:20 PM   
o4r

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 1/31/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin
[B]Let's see, the wife & daughter are going to visit the in-laws for a week starting April 17. Hmm... yes, the time frame is just about right to peruse the new "final" OOBs and start a new campaign without interruption, except for going to work and answering the phone. "No, I can't make it to the office today...think I've got...uh, trigger finger!" ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, that is "Bachelor week"...... when the cat is out, the mouse is the boss...... :) :P

(in reply to bchapman)
Post #: 60
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