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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta)

 
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 12/30/2014 8:43:39 AM   
Icemania


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You are right Bingeling but whatever AI technology trading exists is very limited in terms of material impact.

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Post #: 721
AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 12/30/2014 8:54:43 AM   
Icemania


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All:

After playing a game on lower aggression levels, as well as previous test games on higher aggression, I'm pretty happy with the changes, so I'll update the OP with the 1.04 release version.

Blackstork:

To integrate Version 1.04 with Beyond here is the impact for each change:

1. Spaceports now use the Evade Stance (except for races that require Point Blank for their chosen weapon type). This effects Tractor Beams, pushing away ships, hence making it more difficult for Pirates to land raiders.

This has an impact on Empire Spaceport Design Templates for each race.

2. War Willingness generally increased and better aligned with racial characteristics i.e. so passive races still have a low War Willingness, but aggressive races have increased War Willingness.

This has an impact on the War Willingness parameter in the Race files. Refer also to the summary excel sheet.

3. Racial biases are much more often negative for races in other alliance / racial groups.
4. Positive racial biases are now more strongly aligned with racial groups.
5. Racial biases now include a modifier for friendliness of the race to better align with their racial characteristics.


These three items all impact the race biases file. Refer also to the raceBiases sheets in the Excel file (which produces the text which can be copied and pasted in the race biases file) which uses input from the Summary sheet.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 12/30/2014 10:11:01 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 12/31/2014 6:12:19 AM   
sayke

 

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Icemania - Thank you!!

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/1/2015 4:31:41 AM   
Stardude

 

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Hey Icemania,

I was playing through as the Ackdarians and I was wondering if the ship constructions sizes were supposed to stay at 230 size for the first update. I notice the speed is faster, but I thought the ship sizes were increased to 300. I am playing the Beyond mod, but I thought the AI mod controlled that. Not sure if this is a bug or what.

~Dude

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Post #: 724
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/1/2015 11:43:42 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stardude

Hey Icemania,

I was playing through as the Ackdarians and I was wondering if the ship constructions sizes were supposed to stay at 230 size for the first update. I notice the speed is faster, but I thought the ship sizes were increased to 300. I am playing the Beyond mod, but I thought the AI mod controlled that. Not sure if this is a bug or what.

~Dude

Hey Stardude:

What you should expect to see, along with an explanation, is in the OP below.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Available ship sizes have been increased in each class to avoid AI ship design problems. The design templates use a fixed number of components so without this change the larger designs used in this Mod can be problematic early game.


So instead of starting at Size 160 then the first upgrade provides Size 230, you'll start at Size 230 then the first upgrade provides Size 300 and so on through the tiers. To say the least this change has resolved a lot of the early problems the AI had with the larger designs and the developer has also improved some of the shrinkage methods also.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/1/2015 12:45:23 PM >

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Post #: 725
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/1/2015 8:21:00 PM   
Stardude

 

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K, It currently wasn't like that in the Beyond mod, I switched to the Extended AI Improvement and it seems that it is the correct sizes. I posted to Blackstork as well, not sure if it was supposed to be that way or maybe something I did when I installed it.

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Post #: 726
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Release) - 1/1/2015 11:54:18 PM   
Icemania


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Okay thanks I'll check the latest Beyond and post more in the Beyond Mod thread.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/2/2015 12:55:08 AM >

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Post #: 727
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/3/2015 11:24:44 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

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Hi, thanks for your work on this mod. I've only played a few games of distant worlds and never higher than normal and usually let a lot of the stuff be automated so I have some questions. I streamed your mod earlier today after having a discussion with someone about an old star trek 4x game he liked while i was streaming Endless Legend. I said, hey I know a game you might like and it has a star trek mod (looking at the star trek mod it seemed maybe not complete and I liked what I saw with your mod so I went with the extended version of it). I have some questions for you or anyone really.

1) Will leaving the automation on for research and auto updating the base/ship designs follow the new logic the AI uses? Like if im a certain race that uses torpedos or whatever will they research torpedos as you have defined in your mod or will it behave differently since I am a player? Ditto with ship designs. Designing ships and all that is a little above my skill level at the moment.

2) What would you consider a 'standard' game set up as far as grid size (forget if this is the right name...), amount of stars, and number of civs? This is a question Ive never really been able to find out. Any difference for prewarp or standard? I play with tech trading off, space creatures and pirates on normal, basically default settings, oh and the shaktari story off because it happened my first game and i dont think i liked how it ended. I think I do the uniform star clusters as well because I had one game get absolutely wrecked (w/o your mod just extended) in i think an spiral galaxy where they were militaristic and started right in the center and it just wasnt fair.

3) I declared 2 wars and accomplished absolutely 0 resistance. The only ships I killed were civilian maybe an odd one here or there. Im talking taking like half of someones empire who was about the same military power as me and not having a single battle. Is this expected behavior? it was kinda boring to take like 5 planets and have not only no troops on them but no star ports or fleet resistance.

That's probably it as far as mod specific questions go.

I have some general DW questions from here on out that you can feel free to answer or not.

4) Did I read somewhere that this mod was meant to be played on very hard? or am I going crazy?

5) Having never played on very hard, I got myself in about 200k worth of debt and I cannot get out. Nearly all of my planets were taken via war and are low pop. I can only tax my home province by 26% and maybe just a few percent on my 2nd best colony. I cant remember the name of the people I am but they are a warlike race that kinda sounded like klingons in the description and I think desert is their preferred planet. I built an attaction, 4 space ports (1 large 2 small I think), recruited troops and went to war with the xhumans that were colonizing near me quickly but had almost no military power. I only had maybe 3 planets I could colonize including my capital, despite building a ton of explorer ships. Now I have all these low pop colonies, constant resource shortages, and pretty much stay at -200k despite canceling all my protections, disbanding 2/3's of my explorers etc. Im probably in like 6th out of 8th place in military power so it isnt like i have a lot of ships, and BY FAR the weakest economy, something like 3% of the gdp. Even though I went to 2 wars and took like 6 or so colonies and didn't lose any ships... All I can think of doing is disbanding like literally all of my troops and and ships and seeing if no one will declare war on me and I can get enough money to build some attractions and some spaceports in my new areas, because the money just isnt coming in even with just1 fleet... Sorry for the long story, but I don't really understand what went wrong and these colonies aren't going to be taxable forever.

Anyways great work on the mod I'm excited to play some more games after I get those mod related questions answered!


(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 728
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/4/2015 12:11:50 AM   
Icemania


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Welcome UnfriendlyBG!

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
1) Will leaving the automation on for research and auto updating the base/ship designs follow the new logic the AI uses? Like if im a certain race that uses torpedos or whatever will they research torpedos as you have defined in your mod or will it behave differently since I am a player? Ditto with ship designs. Designing ships and all that is a little above my skill level at the moment.

Yes, if you have research and designs on auto, the research orders and templates are aligned. In fact this is how I normally play these days, I used to play full micro but the games go much faster and can be a lot of fun with these on auto. If you go to the Galactopedia the descriptions for each race let you know what their focus areas are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
2) What would you consider a 'standard' game set up as far as grid size (forget if this is the right name...), amount of stars, and number of civs? This is a question Ive never really been able to find out. Any difference for prewarp or standard? I play with tech trading off, space creatures and pirates on normal, basically default settings, oh and the shaktari story off because it happened my first game and i dont think i liked how it ended. I think I do the uniform star clusters as well because I had one game get absolutely wrecked (w/o your mod just extended) in i think an spiral galaxy where they were militaristic and started right in the center and it just wasnt fair.

This is really a matter of personal preference. Part of the longevity of the game is being able to play with a variety of settings. As a relatively new player, I would probably recommend a smaller map with just a few civilisations and no pirates, peaceful or normal aggression, until you really get the hang of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
3) I declared 2 wars and accomplished absolutely 0 resistance. The only ships I killed were civilian maybe an odd one here or there. Im talking taking like half of someones empire who was about the same military power as me and not having a single battle. Is this expected behavior? it was kinda boring to take like 5 planets and have not only no troops on them but no star ports or fleet resistance.

Wars with the AI Improvement Mod can be far more challenging than Vanilla. However, since the AI's are generally more aggressive and the Pirates are harder you'll find some AI's that have been stomped. Declaring war on the strongest AI's will be a different story.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
4) Did I read somewhere that this mod was meant to be played on very hard? or am I going crazy?

Yes up to 1.03 the recommendation in the theme text in-game was to play it on Hard or above. In 1.04 I've changed that to Very Hard. The fundamental reason is that there are limits on what can be done to improve the AI. For example, the AI's build many more Explorers, but there is no way for me to decrease the number of Explorers once the Exploration phase is complete. They just sit there, which costs the AI money, when a human player would rationalise them. If you play on Normal in particular that can be a big handicap to the AI. If you play on higher difficulties the AI can afford it and the benefit is huge as it's no longer possible to literally find everything interesting in the galaxy before the AI can like Vanilla. That said, the Mod will work on Normal or Hard, it just doesn't achieve the vision I had.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
5) Having never played on very hard, I got myself in about 200k worth of debt and I cannot get out. Nearly all of my planets were taken via war and are low pop. I can only tax my home province by 26% and maybe just a few percent on my 2nd best colony. I cant remember the name of the people I am but they are a warlike race that kinda sounded like klingons in the description and I think desert is their preferred planet. I built an attaction, 4 space ports (1 large 2 small I think), recruited troops and went to war with the xhumans that were colonizing near me quickly but had almost no military power. I only had maybe 3 planets I could colonize including my capital, despite building a ton of explorer ships. Now I have all these low pop colonies, constant resource shortages, and pretty much stay at -200k despite canceling all my protections, disbanding 2/3's of my explorers etc. Im probably in like 6th out of 8th place in military power so it isnt like i have a lot of ships, and BY FAR the weakest economy, something like 3% of the gdp. Even though I went to 2 wars and took like 6 or so colonies and didn't lose any ships... All I can think of doing is disbanding like literally all of my troops and and ships and seeing if no one will declare war on me and I can get enough money to build some attractions and some spaceports in my new areas, because the money just isnt coming in even with just1 fleet... Sorry for the long story, but I don't really understand what went wrong and these colonies aren't going to be taxable forever.

Glad to hear it's a challenge! You may want to consider some more games at lower difficulties. Also have a look at some of the After Action Reports. Larry Monte has a good series running at the moment with the AI Improvement Mod on Hard, lots of good tips in those videos I'm sure you would find useful.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/4/2015 1:15:30 AM >

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Post #: 729
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/4/2015 6:21:51 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

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These are all observations just as a noob so probably not exactly what youre looking for but might be useful.

I'm having a lot more success today just playing on normal. It feels about as difficult as my other normal playthroughs more or less. I havent gone to war yet though. Im the avian eugenics guys and everyone just sends me treaties etc and I have the 2nd best military. I had so many spaceports killed while building them even when protecting them so it's been tough but for whatever reason im making a ton of money I don't really understand how all that works. So great job! The legendary pirates destroyed my entire fleet basically and I had to rebuild. My only complaint is the warp drives were really slow with standard auto research but Im doing 10x10 700 stars so maybe I dont have enough stars. Another suggestion I would make is maybe somehow indicate that you don't need to research the colonization tech for your innate planet type (desert for me). Not really a big deal but a little confusing. Actually what can you even colonize at the beginning with no techs? Maybe don't have the ai auto research their home planet tech right away? Maybe just before you go for advanced? It doesn't seem like you research the advanced until way into the game anyway, but it's probably such a small time it doesn't matter?

Also Kaltors aren't scary at all anymore theyre pretty much a non factor, I kinda miss them being a thing but I think any default escort can kill one.

When you get new components researched do you have to go into the plans and select everything and do 'auto update' or does it do it automatically? I select all and do autoupdate and sometimes it makes new orange ones so Im not sure if im messing anything up.

Also, I cant remember if in the default game if spaceports have research but it seems like I dont have to ever build any research facilities even if I just have like 2 spaceports. I actually took out the research mods and made a different version of the spaceport myself which was fun. I dont really understand the research though I look at those damn numbers all the time and they dont add up and they dont make sense I read an explanation a long time ago but forgot.

Oh also, is it best to also buy a capital ship over like a bunch of smaller ships? I can afford a lot of capital ships this game and it seems like its just better to spam them. Thanks

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/5/2015 9:23:36 AM   
Icemania


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Glad you are having fun, comments below...

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
I'm having a lot more success today just playing on normal.

Once you really get the hang of the game Normal is just way too easy ... with respect I'd call it "Noob" difficulty. It's a relatively complex game so it's reasonable to have to give the AI some bonuses for it to be competitive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
My only complaint is the warp drives were really slow with standard auto research but Im doing 10x10 700 stars so maybe I dont have enough stars.

The warp drives are intended to be slower early game but faster late game. I never liked the idea you could go from a snails pace with Warp Bubble Generator while with Gerax you could explore an entire galaxy with a few extra fuel cells with nothing in between. But yes I normally play with more stars myself as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Another suggestion I would make is maybe somehow indicate that you don't need to research the colonization tech for your innate planet type (desert for me). Not really a big deal but a little confusing. Actually what can you even colonize at the beginning with no techs? Maybe don't have the ai auto research their home planet tech right away? Maybe just before you go for advanced? It doesn't seem like you research the advanced until way into the game anyway, but it's probably such a small time it doesn't matter?

The research cost for the innate planet type is lower with this mod. Waiting for Advanced is too late given the rush to colonise territory (and also needs to be balanced against wonder targets and so on).

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
When you get new components researched do you have to go into the plans and select everything and do 'auto update' or does it do it automatically? I select all and do autoupdate and sometimes it makes new orange ones so Im not sure if im messing anything up.

It's automatic but there is a delay. There is no real harm in selecting all and doing an auto update.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Also, I cant remember if in the default game if spaceports have research but it seems like I dont have to ever build any research facilities even if I just have like 2 spaceports. I actually took out the research mods and made a different version of the spaceport myself which was fun. I dont really understand the research though I look at those damn numbers all the time and they dont add up and they dont make sense I read an explanation a long time ago but forgot.

It's changed a lot in this mod, as otherwise the AI either fails to research fully, or fails to have a reasonable split across the research areas. For explanations refer to the links in the Guide to Guides Mk II.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Oh also, is it best to also buy a capital ship over like a bunch of smaller ships? I can afford a lot of capital ships this game and it seems like its just better to spam them. Thanks

IMO yes. As your construction size increases the capital ship designs will expand as well by scaling up the number of components i.e. so you can retrofit to even larger sizes all the way up to maximum.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/5/2015 10:24:08 AM >

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/7/2015 4:28:29 AM   
Stardude

 

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Anyone ever have issues with invading colonies or planets, I attack them but the troops never unload from my transports.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/7/2015 11:09:51 AM   
Icemania


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No problems here. As a normal game mechanic unchanged by the AI Improvement Mod I am not sure how it's relevant here? May I suggest a separate thread with more detail on the problem you are having.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/7/2015 9:57:29 PM   
Stardude

 

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I only posted it here cause I loaded the 1.03 theme and extended universe by themselves and problem didn't persist. I'll investigate further.

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/8/2015 1:22:02 AM   
Shogouki


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Hey Ice, would it mess with any of the race's tech preferences and builds if I made an edit to the mod that reduced the number of fighters per bay but increased the firepower and HP of the fighters to compensate?

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/8/2015 11:12:23 AM   
Icemania


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I can't see that causing any problems Shogouki. Indeed if you find the game gets a bit of lag with the massive fighter battles, I'd say that's a great idea!

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/8/2015 11:19:57 AM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

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About to start a new game with your mod again. What goes in to the AI's suggestions for amount of ships you should have/build?

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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/8/2015 11:34:17 AM   
Icemania


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I'd treat the AI suggestions on what to build with a pinch of salt and play it your way. It's pretty limited in what I can mod. In a nutshell I build more construction ships than the AI (I still have on the developer support wishlist that the AI would build more here), similar numbers of explorers (with this mod which is a lot more than Vanilla) early to mid-game but a lot less late game, and build only the largest ship that I have available and ignore the rest. Hope that helps!



< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/8/2015 12:35:03 PM >

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Post #: 738
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/11/2015 4:43:50 PM   
Testmann


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Ok I've got two nitpicks with the latest version of this mod.

First, Racial Biases should be more in relation to their form of government.
Other Empires that have very friendly governments still hate me because of different race group.
Race seems to be at least 2 times as important as government right now. please a bit less racism and a bit more government priority for biases.

Second, your design templates seem to focus very much on just one weapon.
My whole fleet and bases solely rely on torpedo weapons while completely ignoring beam weapons, fighters and tractor beams.

Even if my lasers are 5 techs ahead the design ai still uses level 1 garbage-torpedos. (Ackdarians)

In large space battles I get crushed because of bad weapons composition.
Automated ship design becomes very closeminded/not fun at all.
I'd love to see ship designs use a larger variety of weapons/fighters/tractor beams.


please take a look at it, I like your mod! cheers!

< Message edited by Testmann -- 1/11/2015 6:12:46 PM >

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Post #: 739
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/11/2015 5:52:13 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

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This is probably the wrong place to ask, but I am using the mod so I'm not sure what affect it has. How do I go to war with a similar strength and size empire (20ish colonies?) without it just being trading planets back and forth. With the slow warp drives you can't do much reacting. I was at war for like 3 or 4 hours yesterday and it was just super frustrating. I'm playing on hard btw. I'd take a colony, theyd take it back or it would rebel enough to go back before I could get more troops out there (despite recruiting something like 100 ungarrisoned troops in my empire). Then they would attack just where I wasn't nabbing stuff in my empire and making me have to take it back. I dont know if thats just how distant worlds is or if I'm doing it wrong or what, but just trading back and forth is very frustrating. Should I go and wipe out all their mining stations and stuff first?

I dont want to just go to their homeworld as they have these long range torpedos (which also render all my defenses ineffective because they dont get in weapon range, im the sluken they are the valeeren(?)), plus its the furthest planet away and I'd be low on fuel and screwed if I got wiped out. I swept like the closest 6 systems they owned of all hostiles and stuff and parked some fleets out there waiting to get transports out there but then theyd just send fleets and transports at random stuff deep in my empire, and I just couldn't react fast enough to get to the systems in time.

(in reply to Icemania)
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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/11/2015 7:08:46 PM   
Testmann


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try to make peace quickly once you have conquered your wargoals. sometimes you can get a cheap peace by offering trade sanctions to another empire..

In order to defend raids, I'd recommend long range sensor bases to know when the enemy is comming.

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Post #: 741
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/11/2015 7:28:22 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

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thanks. I dont know what my wargoals are lol maybe thats the problem. Usually its just take as many colonies as possible. Im actually about to make a 3rd video that im probably going to upload to youtube about the war that im in that i started making after i made this post.

(in reply to Testmann)
Post #: 742
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/11/2015 11:41:24 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

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So I started just recording some gameplay to get some help with my war problems but I just played a lot better and it went fine. I decided just to make a let's play out of it since I was having fun and its kinda interesting because I found the super area weapon in some ruins like right at the beginning of the game.

It wont let me post links so go to youtube and paste this after the youtube homepage url: /playlist?list=PLJ0_WUspUeoVkVJuNvkqP-cTKXr1_nU0t

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)
Post #: 743
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/12/2015 11:03:04 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Testmann
First, Racial Biases should be more in relation to their form of government.
Other Empires that have very friendly governments still hate me because of different race group.
Race seems to be at least 2 times as important as government right now. please a bit less racism and a bit more government priority for biases.


The changes I’ve made in 1.04 were about making the AI less passive particularly for aggressive races.

“RacialBiases.txt” is only about races, there is no government component. They are fixed values that apply at game setup that show up in-game as how a races either naturally likes or dislikes you.

I see there is a "GovernmentBiases.txt" file but I haven't changed that at all from Vanilla. I suppose I can change it, it's a good idea, but how would that benefit the AI? That is the goal of the Mod.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Testmann
Second, your design templates seem to focus very much on just one weapon.
My whole fleet and bases solely rely on torpedo weapons while completely ignoring beam weapons, fighters and tractor beams.

Even if my lasers are 5 techs ahead the design ai still uses level 1 garbage-torpedos. (Ackdarians)

In large space battles I get crushed because of bad weapons composition.
Automated ship design becomes very closeminded/not fun at all.
I'd love to see ship designs use a larger variety of weapons/fighters/tractor beams.

The Vanilla AI Ship Designs have a bunch of problems which allow players to easily exploit the AI. Let's systematically go through each problem and what the AI Improvement Mod does.

By putting a bunch of different weapons on each ship the AI is forced to research all of those weapon types. While the AI slowly does that I'll beeline to a high tier weapon of a particular type. Now do whatever testing you like (I have) but the synergistic effects of multiple weapons types are rarely enough to make up for that, in fact it's normally a slaughter. So each race in the AI Improvement Mod targets a particular weapon (in some cases there is a combination where the synergy is meaningful). The templates, tactics and research strategies are aligned.

Now when multiple weapons are used of fundamentally different types in Vanilla, what tactic should the AI use? On a ship design which mixes beams and missiles, do I apply point blank (the best choice for beams) or all weapons (the best choice for missiles). Either option is far from optimal. In contrast, in the AI Improvement Mod I've applied the tactic that works best for that weapon.

There is limited variation in weapons in Vanilla. Most races use beams and torpedoes/missiles. Relatively few use phasers, rail guns, gravitic weapons or fighters/bombers. And races that use some weapons, like rail guns, are at a distinct disadvantage as the weapon is underpowered. In the AI Improvement Mod, weapons have been balanced and there is a broader variety in weapons used across the races, indeed it's pretty much an even split. I find it more fun to have that variety in-game and more challenging because the AI isn't applying a stupid research order to go along with a stupid design.

Vanilla ship sizes are also very small, indeed this is probably the most common complaint. In the AI Improvement Mod, I've done everything possible to increase ship design sizes (and the developer has supported by improving shrinkage algorithms) and the AI is far more focused on construction research as well.

Now the game appears to have some hard coded rules. Let's use the Ackdarian example you mentioned. They focus on Torpedoes, if you happened to research Missiles, the auto design would apply Torpedoes. But if you focused on Beams, it won't auto design using Torpedoes, as they are different weapons classes.

To make it visible what strategy each race applies in their Templates, you'll find information in the Galactopedia help files in-game for each race. There is also an Excel workbook "AI Improvement Mod.xls" in the Mod Folder, the summary tab in particular.

You can either apply the strategy intended for the race, auto design using the same class of weapon, or manually select the research to ensure the designs align if you want to use something completely different.

There is also another option if you don't mind getting into the Mod folders. For example personally I like playing Quameno with Torpedoes. In the AI Improvement Mod the Quameno use Gravitic Weapons. Since the Ackdarian designs use Torpedoes, I have a "custom" theme where the Ackdarian templates folder has simply been copied over to the Quameno, and also have a custom research order in the race file. A couple of the designs have been customised to suit my strategy. That way I can put Ship and Base Design as well as Research on Auto. Which means more battles in less time ...

You put all these factors together and it's possible to get an entire game on Extreme difficulty, including the Shakturi, and never loose a single ship on Vanilla. In contrast, with these designs the AI will pawn the Vanilla Shakturi ... so I've upgraded them as well. So I'm not going to change the designs back to Vanilla as it defeats the entire purpose of the Mod i.e. to improve the AI.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/12/2015 12:07:46 PM >

(in reply to Testmann)
Post #: 744
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/12/2015 11:10:44 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
This is probably the wrong place to ask, but I am using the mod so I'm not sure what affect it has. How do I go to war with a similar strength and size empire (20ish colonies?) without it just being trading planets back and forth.

Looks like you've got a good thread going on the Steam forums for this, I'll respond more there.

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)
Post #: 745
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/13/2015 12:08:00 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
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Just finished a game as the Sluken. Just some observations. First the sluken ships are set to never flee. I think this is from an RP standpoint but it brings basically nothing to the table gameplay wise and puts them at a total disadvantage. Plus if you end up playing as them as the player you have to go and edit your own designs even if you dont want that hassle. I think in the interest of gameplay they should be set to flee just like the rest of the races are.

Second. It seems like in my games that the colonization techs are a little off. I played on slow research this last one on a 6x6 galaxy but it wouldnt be much difference otherwise anyway. By the time you actually research the last colonization tech there are no colonies left in the galaxy. You're paying a whole lot for something thats not important imo. Im not sure what my opinion is on the advanced colonization techs they might be ok but stand to use a little bit of a decrease. I was only able to research 1 in my last game. I think you end up having to spend too much time in colonization and dont get to go into the rest of the tree but that's just me.

< Message edited by UnfriendlyBG -- 1/13/2015 1:09:06 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 746
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/13/2015 1:39:36 PM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Just finished a game as the Sluken. Just some observations. First the sluken ships are set to never flee. I think this is from an RP standpoint but it brings basically nothing to the table gameplay wise and puts them at a total disadvantage. Plus if you end up playing as them as the player you have to go and edit your own designs even if you dont want that hassle. I think in the interest of gameplay they should be set to flee just like the rest of the races are.

The options for the AI were to flee at 20% Shields or Never.

For a really aggressive race using short range weapons and point blank tactics, 20% Shields is nothing short of silly. Just to get to a position where they have a DPS advantage, they have to take some hits from races with long range weapons. Often, just as they get into a position where they will eventually win, they flee! It's particularly silly if they have good armour and repair technology. So given the limited choices, I selected Never.

I notice in Patch 1.9.5.10 we have a new option to flee at 50% Armour according to the patch notes. That might be a better option for those races. However, it's actually "Armour at 50% OR Shields at 20%" which doesn't really help.

Please keep in mind the goal of the Mod was to improve the AI, not to help humans. Personally I could never put Ship design on Auto with Vanilla as the designs are poor, everything needs major upgrades. But with the AI Mod I often play on Auto Designs. That said, I have my own design templates, which have minor modifications from the Mod to suit my personal strategy. They are very easy to edit. Ship design can then be left on Auto all game and becomes completely hassle free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UnfriendlyBG
Second. It seems like in my games that the colonization techs are a little off. I played on slow research this last one on a 6x6 galaxy but it wouldnt be much difference otherwise anyway. By the time you actually research the last colonization tech there are no colonies left in the galaxy. You're paying a whole lot for something thats not important imo. Im not sure what my opinion is on the advanced colonization techs they might be ok but stand to use a little bit of a decrease. I was only able to research 1 in my last game. I think you end up having to spend too much time in colonization and dont get to go into the rest of the tree but that's just me.

The Advanced Colonisation technologies should double the population growth rate for that planet type, a huge benefit which shouldn't come cheap. Unfortunately there is an unresolved bug I reported in Tech Support some time ago which I would still like to see fixed.

Keep in mind you are playing a relatively small map with slow research. In Vanilla I found it was always preferable to go with Wonders first rather than Colonisation technologies. Now there is more choice to make as a player. Do I shoot for a Wonder knowing that the AI will be far better at targeting Wonders with the Mod? Or do I target different world types to colonise to claim territory? Or instead do I target the extra population growth (with the bug fixed)? It isn't really the intent to research them all, at least until late game. Also note the research costs of the Wonder branches are significant as well.



< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/13/2015 3:24:03 PM >

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)
Post #: 747
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/13/2015 3:55:06 PM   
Sabretooth

 

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I'd say, at least the Shipyard Wonder should be a must have for every1.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 748
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/13/2015 5:12:22 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

Posts: 31
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Ok I understand your reasoning with never. All I know is I saw quite an improvement in performance when I changed to flee. If I have 20 capital ships in a fleet, its ok if 1 of them goes off and flees instead of dying trying to add an extra bit of damage when the ship itself is more valuable. Thats just my opinion, but I'm not interested in winning Pyrrhic victories as it's usually more important in the long run to have less of a drain on your economy than win a skirmish, wars are obviously won at the strategic and logistical level in this game not the individual encounter. Maybe consider setting capital ships to never flee and the smaller ships to flee? Because if youre using them past the beginning of the game like the AI would be doing, ships smaller than capital will just be going on straight suicide missions. I think that's counterproductive towards the AI. If you want to say that the capital ships would win a battle but flee instead I understand that and maybe set them to never. This is aimed at the AI because as a human (and as per your recommendation) you don't really build the small ships later in the game, but the AI does. So to have a drain on the ai's economy of constantly replacing suicide destroyers et all might hurt in the long run. I understand you don't have a lot of flexibility here, early in the game you might want to have them set at 'never' to flee, but as the capital ships come to play fleeing is better, you can only pick one, I'd pick fleeing for the smaller ships.

As per the colonization tech, I played on a larger game on normal difficulty normal research using the mod. By the time the AI went to research (i left it on automated) the final colonization tech there is no way there could have been any colonizable planets left in the galaxy. I don't think the 30 to 100m increase warrants being the last in a long tech line. The double growth rate is very powerful (if it works) so I get your reasoning there and I typically only try to research it for my home planet type as at least in the game i played you only really get one shot at one. The thing is that terraforming is kinda necessary as well though because you will undoubtedly have some disasters and what have you.

How about this. Double growth rate (if it works) is indeed very very powerful. It boosts your economy which drives everything in the game. Once you're able to tax planets is when things really get going. Halving the time to max pop is great. Terraforming is a tech that you generally want. The last tech is useless as even if you totally beelined it in a huge galaxy I don't really know if there would be anything left to colonize and that's kinda a fringe case. Plus you'd be sacrificing literally everything else in that tree. Now I'm not totally sure but starting at 100m vs 30 mil might actually more than double your growth rate for a new colony I don't feel like doing math. So it's powerful but pretty useless overall. What if you took that final colonization tech, moved it in front of the doubled growth ones, and if necessary dropped it from like 100m pop to 60m pop or something like that AND gave it terraform? That gives you a chance to grab terraforming and the bigger starting pop, while colonies are still out there and prior to specializing in one planet type. If you think about it, wouldn't it be more logical that you're able to colonize with bigger numbers of people on any planet before you're able to double the growth rate on a specific type of planet anyway? Plus then you'd have terraforming on 1 tech instead of on 5 different ones which is kinda odd to begin with.

I'm not taking shots at you or anything, I'm just throwing around ideas based on what I've seen in my play, and this is a small community so you don't get as much feedback as you would if you were modding Total War or something like that. Let me know what you think.

(in reply to Sabretooth)
Post #: 749
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.04 Beta) - 1/13/2015 5:37:34 PM   
UnfriendlyBG

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 1/3/2015
Status: offline
oh and also, re: the double growth bug.

I'm going to assume modding isn't this flexible in the game (considering the effect is broken to begin with) but could you do something like:

Each of those adv colonization techs unlock a building that can be built for 1 credit with 0 upkeep at its respective planet type that would double the growth rate when built?

(in reply to UnfriendlyBG)
Post #: 750
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