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RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/5/2014 12:34:45 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		True words have been spoken.

(in reply to ParagonExile)
Post #: 241
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/5/2014 12:41:02 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		Balancing aside I'm done with the weapon research. Yeah!

There are now 740 research projects meaning that I doubled the vanilla number.

Here's another teaser:



< Message edited by lurchi -- 8/5/2014 2:27:08 AM >

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 242
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/5/2014 12:54:23 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		I forgot to mention there are now 45 more components I need to add once the base game is patched.

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 243
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/5/2014 1:31:30 AM   
Rhikore

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/4/2014
Status: offline 		Good Stuff, Lurchi.

Did you get my message?

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 244
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/5/2014 11:53:01 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		Thanks.

Yup, I got it, my answer is one page back.

(in reply to Rhikore)
Post #: 245
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/5/2014 8:37:14 PM   
spiralaxis

 

Posts: 43
Joined: 6/11/2014
Status: offline 		Any plans for new wonders or facilities?

I've often felt Wonders should require a specific, separate research project instead of how it currently works.

Facility ideas:
- Global surveillance network (-% corruption, -% happiness))
- Fertility centres (+% pop growth)
- Conscription centre (+% troops, --% happiness)

Not sure how the AI would handle these though.

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 246
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 12:32:30 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		One new facility is already done, another underway, and of course there are plans for more. The AI seems to build them just fine.

Global surveillance network? Is the NSA still around in the future?


(in reply to spiralaxis)
Post #: 247
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 1:07:17 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		BTW, there is a mod providing more wonders, did you check that out? I considered adding those, but they still need to be balanced. I definitely keep an eye on that one, but right now I confine myself to adding new facilities open for everyone to prevent unbalancing the playfield.

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 248
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 3:22:08 AM   
Cmiller

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		I like that you've added many research projects, but my only concern is how long it would take to complete a research branch. I'm one of those players that likes to play on smaller maps to have shorter games, and with vanilla tech tree I usually don't see the end of tech tree before victory, which is fine with me. But with these insane amounts of research projects i'd be lucky just to get to midgame tech. So I just want to ask what's this going to mean for those who want shorter games. I liked Locarnus's idea with balancing the tech, but it seems that you are actually extending it. That's fine, but now I sure wish there'd be the option of having a tech tree that is simply balanced with minimal additional tech projects.

And then I hear rumors that there's a mega-mod in the works which apparently will include your mod. That's also fine, but I hope if this mega mod is ever release there'd at least be the option to remove portions of the mod that the user may not want. For example, what the martian guy did with his graphics mod. He had lots of cool features, but gave people the choice of choosing what features they wanted. I'm not trying to bash on your mod, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit my playstyle, and it would be a shame to have a cool megamod come out, and then I would find it undesirable simply because I couldn't remove one feature (or two).

So I just have two requests of the modding community:

1.) Can we have another tech tree mod, but one that only balances the vanilla and adds minimal additional tech projects.
2.) If you're making a mega-mod, at least give individuals the option to remove certain features that they may not find desirable.

Hope my post sounds clear, ask me any questions if it doesn't. And good job on your mod lurchi, I'm sure many people here will like it. I'll at least give it a try on release. And who knows, maybe I'll end up liking after all. Can't knock something until your try it, right? .

Cmiller

< Message edited by Cmiller -- 8/6/2014 4:27:21 AM >

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 249
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 7:59:14 AM   
Kizucha

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline 		I never tried it but maybe lower the research costs? I think it will work, so you need less time.

Its only what i think lurchi would do, that he make after the "release" an other version, because i think more will be happy with more research projects. So maybe if lurchi will do the extra work, it will give an lite version after the biggest work.

In mind i say what can be possible and its not 100%, i dont can look in lurchis ideas.

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 250
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 9:34:49 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

I like that you've added many research projects, but my only concern is how long it would take to complete a research branch. I'm one of those players that likes to play on smaller maps to have shorter games, and with vanilla tech tree I usually don't see the end of tech tree before victory, which is fine with me. But with these insane amounts of research projects i'd be lucky just to get to midgame tech. So I just want to ask what's this going to mean for those who want shorter games. I liked Locarnus's idea with balancing the tech, but it seems that you are actually extending it. That's fine, but now I sure wish there'd be the option of having a tech tree that is simply balanced with minimal additional tech projects.

And then I hear rumors that there's a mega-mod in the works which apparently will include your mod. That's also fine, but I hope if this mega mod is ever release there'd at least be the option to remove portions of the mod that the user may not want. For example, what the martian guy did with his graphics mod. He had lots of cool features, but gave people the choice of choosing what features they wanted. I'm not trying to bash on your mod, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit my playstyle, and it would be a shame to have a cool megamod come out, and then I would find it undesirable simply because I couldn't remove one feature (or two).

So I just have two requests of the modding community:

1.) Can we have another tech tree mod, but one that only balances the vanilla and adds minimal additional tech projects.
2.) If you're making a mega-mod, at least give individuals the option to remove certain features that they may not find desirable.

Hope my post sounds clear, ask me any questions if it doesn't. And good job on your mod lurchi, I'm sure many people here will like it. I'll at least give it a try on release. And who knows, maybe I'll end up liking after all. Can't knock something until your try it, right? .

Cmiller

With lurchi's mod he may reduce the research effort required for each technology, but another solution would be to change the research setting one notch e.g. I play on Expensive Research so would instead use Normal.

What sort of balancing did you have in mind Cmiller? In the AI Improvement Mod, I've added minimal additional technology projects but considered weapons balancing, colonisation balancing and the next release will include hyperdrive balancing. There are some other minor changes as well e.g. to balance the research required by Torpedo Bombers and Missile Bombers. I'm happy to consider other balancing that helps the AI as well.

There is no user friendly "tick box" capability that we could provide, and how easy it is depends on the feature. Two examples:

1. Let's say you didn't like how I've balanced hyperdrives. To change that you would need to go into research.txt and components.txt and change it. Pretty easy. But the Research Build Orders for the races that focus on speed/agility may no longer be balanced as a result of that change.

2. Let's say you didn't like how I've balanced colonisation and watched that back to default. You can again change research.txt and components.txt. A more involved change, but more importantly every Research Build Order in races.txt is now invalid (because the research project numbers change) and the Mod would be broken. After customising 62 research build orders, I'm sure you could imagine how much work it work be to customise each permutation. The only way to keep my sanity given this is a voluntary endeavour in my own time, is to release a package.

< Message edited by Icemania -- 8/6/2014 10:35:24 AM >

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 251
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 10:04:57 AM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		I also could tell tho your anticipation of big megamod is admirable i must say that there should be honor to lurchi , as well to any other modder who invests his time and release hi quality and depth content, and that honor also includes certiain trust... cmon, this is not released yet, and for sure all we aim to create amazing, balanced, epic game... and obcourse, as been said, you can adjust research speeds in the game...... anyways, this is too early to say, let to lurchi release, better support him, and once it done i am sure it will be tweaked / made into best epic form possible...

_____________________________

Alien Immersion (WIP) : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3651979
Beyond Extended Universe (WIP): http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 252
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 11:50:31 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

I like that you've added many research projects, but my only concern is how long it would take to complete a research branch. I'm one of those players that likes to play on smaller maps to have shorter games, and with vanilla tech tree I usually don't see the end of tech tree before victory, which is fine with me. But with these insane amounts of research projects i'd be lucky just to get to midgame tech. So I just want to ask what's this going to mean for those who want shorter games.


Not much, researching a path will only take slightly longer. The research trees I provide are wider, not longer. There will be multiple ways to do things, just choose one path you like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

I liked Locarnus's idea with balancing the tech, but it seems that you are actually extending it. That's fine, but now I sure wish there'd be the option of having a tech tree that is simply balanced with minimal additional tech projects.

And then I hear rumors that there's a mega-mod in the works which apparently will include your mod. That's also fine, but I hope if this mega mod is ever release there'd at least be the option to remove portions of the mod that the user may not want. For example, what the martian guy did with his graphics mod. He had lots of cool features, but gave people the choice of choosing what features they wanted. I'm not trying to bash on your mod, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to fit my playstyle, and it would be a shame to have a cool megamod come out, and then I would find it undesirable simply because I couldn't remove one feature (or two).


This mod will be balanced, Icemania will see to that. Also I hope you do understand that you're neither supposed nor forced to research everything.

You pick a path and go with that. Most empires will probably pick different ones. Expect to see a way wider diversity when you meet AI empires.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

So I just have two requests of the modding community:

1.) Can we have another tech tree mod, but one that only balances the vanilla and adds minimal additional tech projects.
2.) If you're making a mega-mod, at least give individuals the option to remove certain features that they may not find desirable.

Hope my post sounds clear, ask me any questions if it doesn't. And good job on your mod lurchi, I'm sure many people here will like it. I'll at least give it a try on release. And who knows, maybe I'll end up liking after all. Can't knock something until your try it, right? .


Icemania's weapon balance mod aside I doubt there'll be another pure rebalance mod since there's basically no gain in that. Regarding the tech it'll be very unlikely you can remove stuff without breaking the mod. The reason is that each included race - and there will be a lot - will follow a different research approach. I also don't see the slightest reason why you would want to remove projects. Just don't use features you don't want to use. Do you know many people ripping out seats from their cars because they don't need them all?



< Message edited by lurchi -- 8/6/2014 12:56:12 PM >

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 253
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 1:39:27 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		Research projects can be restricted to certain races. That's good. What do you think about additionally being able to restrict research projects to certain governments? Like complete population control available for military dictatorships and way of darkness?

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 254
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 1:49:44 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		i think its must have, very cool feature, man, some governments could define tech paths so much
from rce-specific goverements (please check Boyond ideas / blog for next release), to certain mentality goverments. But i hightly suggest to do it together if we aim to merge things / unite races / art /characters/ research /ai / wepons

_____________________________

Alien Immersion (WIP) : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3651979
Beyond Extended Universe (WIP): http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 255
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 1:56:06 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		You sure seem to like the idea.
I place it on my wishlist.

(in reply to Blackstork)
Post #: 256
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 5:42:12 PM   
Cmiller

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania
What sort of balancing did you have in mind Cmiller?


Having you considered balancing the different government types. A few suggestions would be to further increase their biases toward one another to increase the likely hood of major alliances/major wars (I find they have little impact sometimes). And then there are governments that have zero foes such as Technocracy and Feudalism. And then you have governments like Monarchy which zero disadvantages. Then you have governments which are utter crap like corporate nationalism. I think if anything, the governments could use a bit of tweaking. That's the only suggestion I have as of now. Thanks Icemania.

Btw, thanks for all the replies. I guess my requests are out of the question which is fine. If it really comes down to it, I wouldn't mind adjusting my playstyle if means adding a really cool mod to my collection

Cmiller

< Message edited by Cmiller -- 8/6/2014 6:44:40 PM >

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 257
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 5:47:14 PM   
Cmiller

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lurchi

Research projects can be restricted to certain races. That's good. What do you think about additionally being able to restrict research projects to certain governments? Like complete population control available for military dictatorships and way of darkness?


I didn't notice this before I posted my suggestion for governments, yeah this is an awesome idea.

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 258
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 6:13:02 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

Having you considered balancing the different government types. A few suggestions would be to further increase their biases toward one another to increase the likely hood of major alliances/major wars (I find they have little impact sometimes). And then there are governments that have zero foes such as Technocracy and Feudalism. And then you have governments like Monarchy which zero disadvantages. Then you have governments which are utter crap like corporate nationalism. I think if anything, the governments could use a bit of tweaking. That's the only suggestion I have as of now. Thanks Icemania.


Icemania already tinkered with the bias settings, I guess we can expect more in the final edition. There also will be more government types in the mod.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cmiller

Btw, thanks for all the replies. I guess my requests are out of the question which is fine. If it really comes down to it, I wouldn't mind adjusting my playstyle if means adding a really cool mod to my collection

Cmiller


No need to change anything, you just have a bigger supply of components to choose from. If you want to keep researching what you always used that's perfectly fine.

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 259
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 6:24:11 PM   
Cmiller

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		That's awesome, Icemania's already doing that. And more governments is definitely welcomed as well . Because your working on the research side of things, may I suggest allowing certain governments to be researched. Or we could have something like with Civilization where everyone starts with a very low class government, and to get better ones you need to research them and then upgrade. It changes the dynamics of the game, and I feel starts everyone at the same level like it should be. For example, in a pre-warp game everyone would have the same low class government(like you do in the stone age in civilization), and during the pre-era they would start to research their desired government and then upgrade. We can make sure to add a good variety at the start as to still keep government biases and stuff. And then what could happen is there could be "upgrades" to these goverments types like you have upgrades to ship components and whatnot. And then somewhere in the end game you'd have the super governments like Way of Ancients and Way of Darkness (think Communism and Democracy in Civilization series). Oh, and if the player chooses not to start in pre-warp, then he would already have some starting governments available to choose and can just choose his desired government at game start (still of course having the ability to research upgraded governments). Let me know what you think of my idea.

Cmiller

< Message edited by Cmiller -- 8/6/2014 7:30:16 PM >

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 260
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 6:28:57 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		I like the idea, but researching / upgrading governments is not possible as of now. It's on my wish list, though.

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 261
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 7:16:00 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		I also use new goverments (7 new) in beyond which serve as unique mechanisms for some races (well govermeents posses some mechanics which other features can not)


_____________________________

Alien Immersion (WIP) : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3651979
Beyond Extended Universe (WIP): http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 262
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 8:59:13 PM   
Cmiller

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		I've had a look at your mods Blackstork, and I'm very impressed. Man, once when we get yours, lurchi's, and Icemania's AI improvement mod, along with a bunch of graphical improvements there's gonna be one heck of a party here in these forums. I know its a bit early, but I'm so anticipating the day they all come together. Thanks for taking the time to make such great mods, it people like you that really keep a game alive and so great. I think I'll start devoting my time to test your mods out since they look so cool. Once I get the time later tonight I'll start a game with the AI mod on Extreme, and see how it goes. Expect some results in your thread Icemania (probably not the video yet though, I need to do some practice rounds before attempting that ) Cheers everyone!

Cmiller

(in reply to Blackstork)
Post #: 263
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/6/2014 9:45:01 PM   
Blackstork


Posts: 802
Joined: 7/7/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks mate for support, its really appreciated, it makes good feeling doing heard-originated investements into this awesome game.
I will do major (but still alpha :P) release tomorrow and this one i could tell already have alot of things to explore, try, reveal, tweak, and obcourse correct :P
Yeah, both Icemania (i really peered inside his work and its insane :P) and lurchi (i had no chance to per but i imagine it being something leviathan-like) and many others make this game potential more than vannilla version, and thanks to devs for modders support.
I really want to see the day it become most epic mod and most epic game even been done :P

< Message edited by Blackstork -- 8/6/2014 10:46:30 PM >

_____________________________

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Beyond Extended Universe (WIP): http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3657646

(in reply to Cmiller)
Post #: 264
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/7/2014 2:36:37 AM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline

I did not do much today. There are now 745 research projects, 3 new reactors and another new fuel.

(in reply to Blackstork)
Post #: 265
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/7/2014 3:07:51 AM   
Icemania


Posts: 1847
Joined: 6/5/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Yes I've tinkered with the racial bias settings, changes here in the current release of Vanilla and will be in the next release for Extended. What I haven't done yet is tinker with government balancing but I agree with Cmiller it needs to be considered. Let me get the next release out and I'll have a closer look.


(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 266
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/7/2014 1:46:19 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		I just did a little test, the result was... dismaying.

I have three planetary weapons in Research Reloaded as of now, more are planned. The vanilla ion cannon, an upgrade for it and a plasma cannon.

On a single planet I can build exactly one of them.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 267
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/7/2014 2:00:40 PM   
fruitgnome

 

Posts: 186
Joined: 6/4/2014
Status: offline 		Could it be that the planetary weapon implementation is like robot, clone or armored factories. You can only build one of them on the same planet. You could compare the implementation of wonders with the three factories, perhaps there is a value like = group or something like this and it is only allowed to build one of the same group at same planet.

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 268
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/7/2014 2:44:50 PM   
lurchi


Posts: 319
Joined: 6/10/2014
From: LV-223
Status: offline 		Yeah, it's something like that. Each facility can be built only once, and the game knows only one weapon facility...

I already added this to my growing wishlist...

(in reply to fruitgnome)
Post #: 269
RE: Research Reloaded - [DWU] [WIP] New tech tree with ... - 8/7/2014 3:48:27 PM   
PsyKoSnake


Posts: 111
Joined: 1/25/2012
Status: offline 		If you dont have more components, what will you do?

(in reply to lurchi)
Post #: 270
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