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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/8/2015 11:49:50 PM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy
I'll just sit back and grow carriers on my ranch. Victorious is in the yard for at least three months, getting a massive AA upgrade. 20mms have increased at least fivefold and a bunch of 40mms are also being installed.

I think you need to move the focus of your OPs back to India then. You actually have a legitimate shot of pulling off an invasion of Ceylon in early 44 if you get your supply situation under control. Has that improved at all? How many cargo ships are on the Cape Town to Bombay route?

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1021
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 12:26:27 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Deciding not to attack is often a very good decision, especially if you have lost surprise.

CF may react anyhow, and will burn up fuel and lots of clicks doing so.




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Post #: 1022
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 12:37:38 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I have at least 50 xAKs running the Cape Town/Karachi route. About 80k is currently unloading now. I sent about 20 ships to Abadan, as it's over 100k there now and they're currently loading up. I've probably sent about 200k over in the last 3 or so weeks.

Madurai is still sitting at about 20 points. The next base two hexes NE is probably at 6,000, which is an improvement. Cochin's been dropping lately and is at 6,000, where they had 2-3x that amount earlier. Madras, Bombay, Hyderabad (Sindh) and even Delhi have been at comfortable levels I think Karachi's at around 80k, so they've been sending it out.

Maybe I could route some real carriers out that way via Cape Town. I doubt he could do much against them. It would be tempting to beat up on his surface force sitting at Colombo, but I'd rather spring it on him in a real invasion. I could probably scare up at least three divisions from the Eastern Pacific, and maybe more from Australia. A few UK divisions in India would help too. Setting this up would probably take a couple months at the earliest. I'd probably want at least 6 divisions to pull this off, plus armor, artillery, etc. I'd want to use my assault transports for this. A leap to Calcutta could be feasible after this too. Taking Calcutta would probably solve the supply issue, but I'm uncertain how many troops are there.

I don't know if much is coming out of China yet. The main IJA OOB for there is also a restricted one, and buying them out won't come quickly or cheaply.

I'm surprised he hasn't really got a submarine campaign going on in the East Pacific. There have been zero sub sighting off of Hawaii or the West Coast for at least a year. I would be swamping that and the exit path out of Panama to California. I've had a regular stream of mostly unescorted ships coming from Panama/US to Hawaii. Some of his subs have a better than 20,000 mile range.

I'll mull this over a bit. This would be a major realignment of my forces. I'd probably also move some more land based air over, though I'm pretty heavy with air in India right now. Supply and support are the main bottlenecks, though more base forces have been trickling in through Aden. I'd want a bunch more base forces over there too to get Ceylon running. He holds Diego Garcia and Addu, but with Ceylon down they'd simply starve. I have buttloads of fuel in Bombay and Karachi which would support anything I throw into it.

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Post #: 1023
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 12:56:10 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		About the Jugs on escort for naval strikes ... my understanding is that any fighter on escort for bombers is severely handicapped for dogfighting, so you may lose a lot of precious Jugs before you have any pools to replace them. And don't the bomber aircraft also take a penalty in their bomb load to fly to that kind of range? A 500 lb bomb just does not do a carrier the way a 1000 pounder does - sometimes size matters!

I think a P-40 with drop tanks can do the escorting to a decent range. And I would consider having subs lurk in the magic 8-hex range that the IJNAF likes to use.
Anyone with more experience in the air game want to add thoughts or correct any of my musings?

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(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1024
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 1:29:42 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Subs are something that's easy to forget about. I've got at least a dozen in the Noumea/Suva/Lord Howe area, but most are winding down in fuel. It's about a 2-1 ration in S-boats to fleet boats. I think I'll get them all back for refuel and repair and get an arc set up near my Pago Pago bases.

A this point of the war, I have a LOT of subs on the map. The Japan/Taiwan/Philippines axis is swamped with them right now.

I'm still baffled on how he's getting resources and fuel to Japan. I've encountered practically no convoys off of the south Japanese coast. It's been that way the entire game. In my other games I had at least 2 encounters daily down there. Is it possible they're all going on rail from Singapore to someplace like Port Arthur? I've had a sub off of Fusan for most of the game and earlier was bagging plenty of ships there, but that's been quiet too. I didn't think fuel/resources moved that freely across China like that. Is Manchuria producing all the shipping and production points he needs? I would doubt it.

BBFB, I've probably got about 8 jugs in the pool right now. It looks like the rate is 175 per month, so I'll be rolling in them by August. I've been keeping a clenched fist upon the squadron updates, so I'm keeping pool levels under control. When there's enough, I'll start flipping P-40s in Australia over. We'll see how his Georges and Tojos over Port Moresby like getting swept by them at 35,000 ft.

I've been keeping the SBD-5 off of their drop tanks. I'd rather have the bigger bomb, plus I don't want them outrunning any escorts. I also have two B-25 squadrons in the Pago Pago area, and that can help deal with the bombardment stagings. Their skills are a bit low right now, so they've been busy training. My Mitchells at Cairns have given me some hope with this plane.

One thing regarding the Vava'u thing: There appears to be a hard coded max range on LRCAP. It wouldn't let me do this with planes capable of an 8-9 hex range. I'm guessing 7 is tops -- maybe even 6.

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Post #: 1025
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 1:55:53 AM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy
I have at least 50 xAKs running the Cape Town/Karachi route. About 80k is currently unloading now. I sent about 20 ships to Abadan, as it's over 100k there now and they're currently loading up. I've probably sent about 200k over in the last 3 or so weeks.

And as you see that's not nearly enough! You should have THOUSANDS of xAKs now. Where are the rest of them? I realize that it's DBB-C and cargo limits are reduced but everything about this smells like a mismanagement of convoy resources. At this moment, how many xAKs are disbanded in port? Hard to say exactly without tracker but if you go to the ship list page you should be able to figure out roughly what % are in TF and which are in port. If it's more than 10-15% given your supply issues you really need to start taking convoys more seriously. Can't have ships doing nothing in port while troops are starving waiting for resupply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I'm still baffled on how he's getting resources and fuel to Japan. I've encountered practically no convoys off of the south Japanese coast. It's been that way the entire game. In my other games I had at least 2 encounters daily down there. Is it possible they're all going on rail from Singapore to someplace like Port Arthur? I've had a sub off of Fusan for most of the game and earlier was bagging plenty of ships there, but that's been quiet too. I didn't think fuel/resources moved that freely across China like that. Is Manchuria producing all the shipping and production points he needs? I would doubt it.

Well with China in his hands its totally feasible to rail everything from Singapore to Fusan or other ports in Korea/Manchuria. I realize there is no continuous RR through China but where there is not there should be primary roads. Dunno how efficient that is, however.

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1026
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 4:39:34 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Japan can get practically all the non-oil resources it needs from Sapporo/Hakodate and from Shikuka on Sakhalin. I would post subs off of these ports, although the strait between Hakodate and Ominato is a dangerous place.

I have also discovered that some supply can flow on its own from mainland to island to island to mainland at Fusan-Fukuoka. If supply can flow, resources probably can too. I don't have a handle on the rate of flow yet - it likely depends on the size of the built-up bases. When I took Fusan and then Tsushima a flow of 110 supply crossed to the island next turn. Tsushima was 2-2 but totally destroyed. Fusan was 6-6 with 48K supply.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 1027
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 5:04:02 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The supply penalty for over stacking is (definitely) applied after ground combat. Any supply that was unloaded into the unit(s) from the transports will be available for ground combat.


That's a good point and...

I think the greater concern is the disruption caused to your forces if you choose to over stack an atoll invasion more so than the supply issue. The disruption could cause the failure of the assault more than anything else. Also, are you 100% prepped for the target? If I recall you are, is that correct?

I so need a turn in my own game.


+1!

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 6:55:34 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Without commenting on whether he should or should not proceed, it's important to clear up a technical point here.

The supply penalty for over stacking is (definitely) applied after ground combat. Any supply that was unloaded into the unit(s) from the transports will be available for ground combat.

I am not commenting on whether or not that makes this particular landing a good idea.


You are right (as usual). But the combat overstack penalty (disruption) is applied during the shock attack (as Joseph points out). Stacking cost for a Allied ID in 43 is something like 20k if I remember correctly? So with the rest of the troops it will be a x4 overstack. Results would be horrible.

Mundy, this is a good thread to read when it comes to atolls. Its actually my own first attempt at an atoll landing. It failed horribly despite me doing my homework. Or I thought I did.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3212274&mpage=1&key=

Look at the adjusted AV. 325 adjusted down to 0. That is why you don´t do "hit and run" atoll landings. They need loads and loads of pre bombardmen.


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Post #: 1029
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 7:11:33 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy
It looks like the rate is 175 per month, so I'll be rolling in them by August.


You get 56/month for 7 months before production swaps over to the P47-25 at 175/month in 3/44. That runs until 6/44 (yes, only 4 months) where it stops until the P47-N starts in 3/45. So those 175 planes per month has to last until March 45...

Your P47s are absolutely golden. Don´t waste them on anything besides sweeps. And be very, very careful with them or you will run out of them in late 44/early 45.

Late 44 is absolutely horrible for the USAAF. You have to get by with only 50 P38 + 30 P51Bs per month. So make sure you have a big surplus in your pools by then!

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Post #: 1030
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 11:35:26 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Thanks for that.  I have noticed that P-38s do tend to be stingy coming out.  I tend to only look about 6 months ahead, so I wasn't aware how 1944 would pan out.  I had assumed stuff would be flowing freely by then.

I only have the two squadrons right now.  Both came out before production started.  I was surprised that they were fully stocked right away.  I have three A-36 squadrons in San Francisco waiting with two planes in each squadron right now.

I've been good with my P-40s as my pools have over 150 each of Es and Ks.

I'm thinking converting probably 4 squadrons tops to Jugs.  Besides the two guarding the Pago Pago area, I'd like them for Port Moresby and Ceylon.  Especially the latter as the Georges have been fearsome there.  They have seemed to be the bigger threat than Tojos or Jacks.

I'll probably dedicate the Stangs solely to India, where I could make better use of the extra range.

Later today, I'll put out what the production figures will be coming up.  I don't know if Iron Babes threw a few sops to the Allies on this side.

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Post #: 1031
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 1:03:56 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Thanks for that.  I have noticed that P-38s do tend to be stingy coming out.  I tend to only look about 6 months ahead, so I wasn't aware how 1944 would pan out.  I had assumed stuff would be flowing freely by then.

I only have the two squadrons right now.  Both came out before production started.  I was surprised that they were fully stocked right away.  I have three A-36 squadrons in San Francisco waiting with two planes in each squadron right now.

I've been good with my P-40s as my pools have over 150 each of Es and Ks.

I'm thinking converting probably 4 squadrons tops to Jugs.  Besides the two guarding the Pago Pago area, I'd like them for Port Moresby and Ceylon.  Especially the latter as the Georges have been fearsome there.  They have seemed to be the bigger threat than Tojos or Jacks.

I'll probably dedicate the Stangs solely to India, where I could make better use of the extra range.

Later today, I'll put out what the production figures will be coming up.  I don't know if Iron Babes threw a few sops to the Allies on this side.


I think I at the most had 8 squadrons flying P47s. But I almost completely ran out in late 44. Had to downgrade a few to the P38.

Even in a SCEN 1 game I was struggling with pools the entire game. Your game (being a SCEN 2 based game) will be much, much tougher. I didn´t pay enough attention to this and had to stop all bomber operation for almost half of 44 just to fill out my bomber squadrons.

Fighters were the same. Especially USAAF planes were a constant shortage while the USN fared a little better. But in late 44 the Hellcat looses much of its use since its outclassed by newer Japanese planes like the Frank.

PS. I assume you bought back all the lost CV squadrons?

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1032
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 6:20:21 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Joc - I'm not as convinced as you are that the atoll invasion with that much overkill will go badly. It depends on how much superiority they have over the defenders, and of course preparation must be 100%. Coming off of APA to get everybody ashore for the first combat with minimum shipboard and unloading disruption are important too.

My guess is that the over stacking penalty for disruption will take the unit into the mid-teens to maybe high-teens for disruption all by itself. Undesirable but not horrible depending on all the other factors.

I have been tending toward the advice that you are giving, but there is more than one way to fry these fish. It might work. Either way I've found for myself and seen in others' AARs that players really have to go through various tries at amphibious ops before get their own feel for what is going to work in what situation. Might be a good idea to do it and gauge the results against the whole situation as a learning exercise.

Mundy - second Joc's comments about USA fighters. Important to keep in mind that various allies get much improved fighters coming available around this time and they can take some of the load while you try to make the early P-47 models last until the drought ends.

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Post #: 1033
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/9/2015 9:53:18 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Thanks.

Like I mentioned, I don't let anyone auto-update, so I've got that under control. Below is my immediate pool counts and updates. I'm assuming Replacement Rates and Production Rates are effectively the same thing. That inflated number I had before for Jugs came from Tracker and that was the monthly value in parentheses. Not sure how that's being calculated there.

I've gotten three squadrons of A-24Bs in the US --effectively SBD-5s for the Army. It appears they last a whole month and a half before being recalled, so I'm just dumping them. I wouldn't get enough training out of them to make a difference and likewise by the time I shipped them somewhere up front, the clock would be ticking. I've seen other anomalies like some airplanes in the pool screen up for production but the production numbers are zero. I don't know if these numbers actually change over time or not. Someone before mentioned buying out destroyed air units. How is that done, as I can't find said screen?

The USA 33rd division arrived in San Francisco. They're getting shipped to East USA and then to Cape Town. It's nice at this point in the war that stuff's coming in unrestricted. Likewise, my transports are start at the end of their update regimen, too.

Speaking of which, to those of you thinking I have freighters swinging at anchor, here's a rough count. I may have missed some in transit. The numbers per base include those currently at sea delivering supplies. These are just xAKs, not the xAKLs or the militarized stuff.

quote:

San Francisco - 90 I'm usually adding 1-2 per day from Los Angeles and Alameda.
Seattle - 7
Pearl Harbor - 50
Australia - 36
Cape Town - 159


Generally, at least 2/3 of the mainland US stuff is at sea at any given time. Likewise with Cape Town. I have a buildup there right now, because I'm waiting for escorts to get out of the yard. Another big convoy will leave Cape Town next turn, as some destroyers become available. CF has had one sub lurking west of Karachi. US DDs have been very good at protecting their charges for me. Pearl supports the surrounding bases like Midway, Xmas and the smaller places fairly frequently. According to Tracker, I've lost 134.

At my five bases around Pago Pago, my rough airplane totals:

quote:

10 Fighter squadrons - 60 percent USAAF
11 Dive Bomber squadrons - USMC
1 Torpedo Bomber squadron - USMC
10 Level Bombers - these range from Hudsons and PV-1s up to B-24s


The Heavies are really in transit and waiting to get repaired before continuing to Australia.

My new short hull Essex, Enterprise is in Panama. She's waiting for Essex and Independence to make the trip to Cape Town. Plenty of other fighting ships are making their way over. Transports and troops will follow.

06 July 1943

CF took a surface raid at Cochin. I had four destroyers and two subchasers there.

quote:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Cochin at 28,40, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami, Shell hits 1
CA Mikuma
CL Kitakami
CL Oi, Shell hits 1
DD Maikaze
DD Hagikaze
DD Hibiki
DD Shirayuki, Shell hits 2, on fire

Allied Ships
DD Arunta, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
DD Nizam
DD Redoubt, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Rotherham

Poor visibility due to Rain with 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 10% moonlight: 6,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards...
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 3,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 3,000 yards
DD Arunta engages CA Mikuma at 3,000 yards
DD Redoubt engages CA Mogami at 3,000 yards
DD Nizam engages CA Mikuma at 3,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Arunta at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Arunta at 2,000 yards
DD Redoubt engages DD Hibiki at 2,000 yards
DD Arunta sunk by CL Oi at 2,000 yards
DD Redoubt engages DD Shirayuki at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Rotherham engages DD Hibiki at 4,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Redoubt at 4,000 yards
CL Oi engages DD Rotherham at 4,000 yards
DD Shirayuki engages DD Nizam at 4,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Redoubt at 4,000 yards
Morrow, J.C. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Rotherham engages DD Hibiki at 5,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Rotherham at 5,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Nizam at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Rotherham at 6,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Redoubt at 6,000 yards
DD Rotherham engages CL Oi at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
DD Rotherham engages DD Shirayuki at 7,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Nizam at 7,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Shirayuki at 7,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Rotherham at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
DD Rotherham engages DD Hibiki at 8,000 yards
CA Mogami engages DD Rotherham at 8,000 yards
CL Oi engages DD Rotherham at 8,000 yards
CL Kitakami engages DD Nizam at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Rotherham at 11,000 yards
DD Shirayuki engages DD Redoubt at 11,000 yards
DD Shirayuki engages DD Nizam at 11,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Rotherham at 11,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Rotherham at 13,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Nizam at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Rotherham at 14,000 yards
DD Hibiki engages DD Redoubt at 14,000 yards
DD Nizam engages DD Shirayuki at 14,000 yards
DD Hagikaze engages DD Redoubt at 14,000 yards
DD Maikaze engages DD Rotherham at 14,000 yards
Task forces break off...


---------------------------------------------

Night Time Surface Combat, near Cochin at 28,40, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Isuzu
CL Yura
CL Abukuma
DD Oshio
DD Arashio

Allied Ships
SC-981, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
SC-984, Shell hits 5, and is sunk

Low visibility due to Rain with 10% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Rain and 10% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 9,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages SC-984 at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages SC-981 at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages SC-984 at 2,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages SC-981 at 2,000 yards
DD Oshio engages SC-981 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
SC-984 sunk by CL Abukuma at 3,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages SC-981 at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
CL Abukuma engages SC-981 at 5,000 yards
SC-981 sunk by CL Abukuma at 5,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...


The remaining hit DD is in good shape with relatively minor damage. They're off to Bombay where they'll stay until friends arrive. I had an AD and YMS there too, and they're all withdrawing together. He didn't bombard, which surprised me. Subs Amberjack and Scamp took shots at his withdrawing ships, but missed.






Attachment (1)

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(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 1034
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 1:38:20 AM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy
quote:

San Francisco - 90 I'm usually adding 1-2 per day from Los Angeles and Alameda.
Seattle - 7
Pearl Harbor - 50
Australia - 36
Cape Town - 159


Generally, at least 2/3 of the mainland US stuff is at sea at any given time. Likewise with Cape Town. I have a buildup there right now, because I'm waiting for escorts to get out of the yard. Another big convoy will leave Cape Town next turn, as some destroyers become available. CF has had one sub lurking west of Karachi. US DDs have been very good at protecting their charges for me. Pearl supports the surrounding bases like Midway, Xmas and the smaller places fairly frequently. According to Tracker, I've lost 134.

So you're telling me that while you have been struggling with supply in India with 50 xAKs in convoys, you had 3x that number just sitting in port! And you haven't sent them on their way because of escorts! Jeeze! I mean do you *really* need to escort supply convoys to India? Historically convoys like this often went unescorted. I know you DEFINITELY don't need them the whole way. Just have the escorts meet up with the convoys as they approach Karachi or Bombay. Subs can't get you in the off map transit phase. Seriously you should end EVERY last one to India ASAP.

EDIT:
What's up with all those P-40Ks in the pool? Why on earth are you using P-40Es still when you have nearly 300 P-40ks! I know PDU is on. You probably should spend some time seeing if there other squadrons that should be getting upgraded to newer and better airframes.

< Message edited by Sangeli -- 7/10/2015 2:41:46 AM >

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1035
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 6:33:58 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Joc - I'm not as convinced as you are that the atoll invasion with that much overkill will go badly. It depends on how much superiority they have over the defenders, and of course preparation must be 100%. Coming off of APA to get everybody ashore for the first combat with minimum shipboard and unloading disruption are important too.

My guess is that the over stacking penalty for disruption will take the unit into the mid-teens to maybe high-teens for disruption all by itself. Undesirable but not horrible depending on all the other factors.

I have been tending toward the advice that you are giving, but there is more than one way to fry these fish. It might work. Either way I've found for myself and seen in others' AARs that players really have to go through various tries at amphibious ops before get their own feel for what is going to work in what situation. Might be a good idea to do it and gauge the results against the whole situation as a learning exercise.

Mundy - second Joc's comments about USA fighters. Important to keep in mind that various allies get much improved fighters coming available around this time and they can take some of the load while you try to make the early P-47 models last until the drought ends.


I´m not convinced DIS would be that light. Granted my only experience with heavily overstacking comes from my game against Joseph where he has Japan overstacked heavily on two occasions. One was actually a atoll attack...

This is a fully prepped Japanese ID landing on Makin (after having pummeled it with BBs and from the air for something like 2-3 months. Keep in mind also that Makin has a 15k SL and not only 6k.

quote:

Ground combat at Makin (136,125)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 9218 troops, 73 guns, 40 vehicles, Assault Value = 356

Defending force 7756 troops, 237 guns, 237 vehicles, Assault Value = 203

Japanese adjusted assault: 35

Allied adjusted defense: 81

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), leaders(-), disruption(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(-), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
2203 casualties reported
Squads: 14 destroyed, 272 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 37 disabled

Allied ground losses:
103 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 19 (2 destroyed, 17 disabled)
Vehicles lost 19 (1 destroyed, 18 disabled)

Assaulting units:
5th Division

Defending units:
763rd Tank Battalion
7th Marine Regiment
119th USAAF Base Force
1st Marine Defense Battalion
64th Coast AA Regiment


This is another huge overstack in a mountain hex in China.

quote:


Ground combat at 70,48 (near Kunming)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 64044 troops, 628 guns, 195 vehicles, Assault Value = 2237

Defending force 20826 troops, 85 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 737

Japanese adjusted assault: 655

Allied adjusted defense: 565

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
4223 casualties reported
Squads: 239 destroyed, 232 disabled
Non Combat: 29 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 24 destroyed, 23 disabled
Guns lost 84 (46 destroyed, 38 disabled)
Vehicles lost 7 (4 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
384 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 105 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Big overstack = Very bad. This was if I remember correctly confirmed by Symon.

I think in this instance my caution is warranted. CF is an excellent player and he has been digging forts since they day he captured it. Level 4-5 Forts is probably reasonable. Probably a NavGuard with some arty and enough supply to last a few attacks. Against that you need to do things the right way no doubt.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 1036
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 11:03:07 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Be careful to take the overstack advice in context.

Sometimes overstacking is the only way to get the firepower and odds necessary to prevail.

This is particularly true of atolls.

It's dicey because if the initial attack doesn't carry than the overtsack will work against you.


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Post #: 1037
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 11:55:22 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Be careful to take the overstack advice in context.

Sometimes overstacking is the only way to get the firepower and odds necessary to prevail.

This is particularly true of atolls.

It's dicey because if the initial attack doesn't carry than the overtsack will work against you.


Hans,

I agree fully that sometimes a bit of overstacking might be necessary. But I think atolls might be an especially bad place to do it. Admittedly I´ve never personally tried it so I got nothing more then a feeling to back it up on.

If I find some time next week I´ll try and set up a sandbox and try it out!

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 1038
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 12:11:47 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Be careful to take the overstack advice in context.

Sometimes overstacking is the only way to get the firepower and odds necessary to prevail.

This is particularly true of atolls.

It's dicey because if the initial attack doesn't carry than the overtsack will work against you.


Hans,

I agree fully that sometimes a bit of overstacking might be necessary. But I think atolls might be an especially bad place to do it. Admittedly I´ve never personally tried it so I got nothing more then a feeling to back it up on.

If I find some time next week I´ll try and set up a sandbox and try it out!

I thought the consensus (from discussions in other AARs when stacking limits were first implemented) was that the way to assault atolls was to use low manpower and high firepower ... no more than a regiment of infantry, some artillery (preferably 155mm) and as many tanks as the remaining S/L allows?

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(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 1039
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 12:13:24 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I thought the consensus (from discussions in other AARs when stacking limits were first implemented) was that the way to assault atolls was to use low manpower and high firepower ... no more than a regiment of infantry, some artillery (preferably 155mm) and as many tanks as the remaining S/L allows?


That is what I have been following and it has worked out well.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 1040
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 1:09:05 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		I've hit a number of atolls with at least a regiment in defense.

A regiment in attack, even with tank and artillery support doesn't seem to be enough fire power to overcome a regiment+.

It works fine against an SNLF.

Against an atoll with a regiment or more in defense I have been hitting with a full marine division with tank, artillery and amphtrack engineer support.

The attack typically takes the atoll on the first assault and I immediately start re-loading the division back on its transport ships leaving the tank and engineers to garrison while the base forces and construction engineers unload at the same time the division is loading.

The overstack gets relived on turn two.

Its only when the assault fails on the first turn that the overstack becomes a burden.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 7/10/2015 2:09:33 PM >

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 1:42:25 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
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From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Basically bring a big enough hammer to make later stacking issues irrelevant?

Both sides troop totals together count against the one stacking limit, correct?  If so, you're likely to deal with overstacking anyway, regardless of how few troops you use.

I'm using my Japanese game to practice on this stuff, since it's "attack, attack, attack" there anyway. I hope I get all my painful lessons out of the way there first.

< Message edited by Mundy -- 7/10/2015 2:45:01 PM >

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 3:50:40 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Basically bring a big enough hammer to make later stacking issues irrelevant?
That's one effective method.

Both sides troop totals together count against the one stacking limit, correct? Incorrect! Each side counts on its own against its own limit.  If so, you're likely to deal with overstacking anyway, regardless of how few troops you use.

I'm using my Japanese game to practice on this stuff, since it's "attack, attack, attack" there anyway. I hope I get all my painful lessons out of the way there first.

What Joc's example above left out is information about how the troops got there. It makes a huge difference. My guess about disruption is for only the over stack effect added in. I mentioned the importance of transport. If the troops are on LST for a month, they will land as zombies. If they are on xAK, etc. similarly bad. Pay lots of attention to what you carry/land the troops from, and how long they are aboard.

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Post #: 1043
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:03:42 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		This is interesting guys, thanks for this.

My shaky memory seemed to recall a post about the way limits worked.  I guess I remembered wrong.

I've been aware of the life span aboard amphibs.  I try to keep those trips inside a week, if possible.  I know it's also been mentioned that using civilian ships for invasions is generally bad news.  As the Japanese, there's not much way around that. 



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Post #: 1044
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:11:56 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

This is interesting guys, thanks for this.

My shaky memory seemed to recall a post about the way limits worked.  I guess I remembered wrong.

I've been aware of the life span aboard amphibs.  I try to keep those trips inside a week, if possible.  I know it's also been mentioned that using civilian ships for invasions is generally bad news.  As the Japanese, there's not much way around that. 



Look at the tables in the manual. They say what the disruption & fatigue penalties are for each ship type. Also of critical importance is the unload rate. If you perform this kind of invasion and your ships take four days to unload the troops they will be defeated 1/4 at a time!

< Message edited by witpqs -- 7/10/2015 5:12:21 PM >

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Post #: 1045
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:32:13 PM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
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Status: offline 		Where do you find unload rate? Same screen as experience?

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 1046
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:38:22 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Where do you find unload rate? Same screen as experience?

Not in game. They're in the manual. Found a copy I made in a text file:


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by witpqs -- 7/10/2015 5:39:15 PM >

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Post #: 1047
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:40:21 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		I told it to embed in post but it won't so here is a cut & paste.

quote:




6.3.3.3.2 AMPHIBIOUS UNLOADING

The Amphibious Unload Rate bonus applies only to ships in an Amphibious TF. Amphibious Unload rates are determined by ship type (i.e., beaching craft, amphibious ship types, or ordinary transport/cargo ship types). There are no Port-derived cargo handling limits. Amphibious Unload only applies to Troops and Cargo (equipment and supply). Amphibious Unload does not apply to Fuel, Oil or Resources. Note that there is also an initial operations bonus for the Japanese during the first 4 months of the war.

Amphibious Unload may be used in two situations: an assault unloads over the beach, and amphibious unload in a small friendly port. Amphibious Unload Rate bonuses differ for the two situations.

6.3.3.3.2.1 OVER THE BEACH

This is for assault unloading over the beach.

» Beaching Craft. Beaching craft unload completely in one turn.
» Attack Amphibious Ships. (APA/AKA plus LSD, LSV and British equivalents)
in Amphibious TFs, unload at a Rate of 3000 points per ship, per turn.
» Regular Transport Ships. (Commissioned Naval AP/AK) in Amphibious
TFs, unload at a Rate of 600 points per ship per turn.
» Merchant Ships. (xAP/xAK) in Amphibious TFs, unload
at a Rate of 250 points per ship per turn.
» Special Japanese early war bonus of 1200 for all AP/AK and xAP/xAK types.

6.3.3.3.2.2 FRIENDLY PORT

For Amphibious docked at and unloading in a friendly port of Size 4 or less, the unload rate is slightly different for Troops and Cargo.

» Beaching Craft. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.
» Attack Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 1000 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 750 points per ship per turn.
» Regular Amphibs. Troops unload at a Rate of 300 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 300 points per ship per turn.
» Merchant Ships. Troops unload at a Rate of 125 points per ship per
turn. Cargo unloads at a Rate of 125 points per ship per turn.

Amphibious TFs not docked at a friendly port unload at a different rate, depending on port size, amount of free dock space, and the types of ships in the TFs. Amphibious ship types, with attached landing craft, will unload faster than non-amphibious ships.

Important correction: The manual says "per turn' but that was subsequently corrected to "per phase", and there are two phases each game day.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 7/10/2015 5:41:52 PM >

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:46:47 PM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
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Status: offline 		What a surprise? More extremely important details I just found out about.

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Post #: 1049
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 7/10/2015 4:50:41 PM   
witpqs


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