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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder

 
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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/25/2015 10:51:01 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Despite 100% damage at Port Moresby, a squadron's worth of fighters has showed up there. I'm hitting them with the sweep and bomb next turn.


Runways repair quickly because you can use any troops to fill holes, but the AF Service requires engineers to repair. The appearance of fighters so soon after damage and while AF Service shows 100 % damage indicates that he has a fair troop complement there but possibly not that many engineers.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/25/2015 11:08:58 PM   
Sangeli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Runways repair quickly because you can use any troops to fill holes, but the AF Service requires engineers to repair.

Where did you get this info? Its not that runways repair quickly: its that they get repaired first. Engineers won't even touch the airfield service facilities until the runway has 0 damage. And when you look at AF damage through recon, you see the service facility damage.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 1:51:07 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Runways repair quickly because you can use any troops to fill holes, but the AF Service requires engineers to repair.

Where did you get this info? Its not that runways repair quickly: its that they get repaired first. Engineers won't even touch the airfield service facilities until the runway has 0 damage. And when you look at AF damage through recon, you see the service facility damage.


Yes, I know they get repaired first, but if there were a lot of engineers one would expect that they would finish opening the field and also repair some of the Service Damage because they can do so much more than troops. I had 2000 troops from an Infantry Division working on a damaged level 2 airfield and they repaired about 3 points of runway damage a day. I put some engineers (57, no eng. vehicle because the port is 97% damaged IIRC) on the island and they repaired about 62 runway points in one turn. If I had two engineer units or a full ID with all the engineers I am sure I would have started repair on the service damage as well. Thus my supposition that there are not a huge number of engineers at Moresby. I know there could be other explanations, but this one feels best to me.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 6:05:16 AM   
Sangeli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Runways repair quickly because you can use any troops to fill holes, but the AF Service requires engineers to repair.

Where did you get this info? Its not that runways repair quickly: its that they get repaired first. Engineers won't even touch the airfield service facilities until the runway has 0 damage. And when you look at AF damage through recon, you see the service facility damage.


Yes, I know they get repaired first, but if there were a lot of engineers one would expect that they would finish opening the field and also repair some of the Service Damage because they can do so much more than troops. I had 2000 troops from an Infantry Division working on a damaged level 2 airfield and they repaired about 3 points of runway damage a day. I put some engineers (57, no eng. vehicle because the port is 97% damaged IIRC) on the island and they repaired about 62 runway points in one turn. If I had two engineer units or a full ID with all the engineers I am sure I would have started repair on the service damage as well. Thus my supposition that there are not a huge number of engineers at Moresby. I know there could be other explanations, but this one feels best to me.

quote:

Yes, I know they get repaired first, but if there were a lot of engineers one would expect that they would finish opening the field and also repair some of the Service Damage because they can do so much more than troops. I had 2000 troops from an Infantry Division working on a damaged level 2 airfield and they repaired about 3 points of runway damage a day. I put some engineers (57, no eng. vehicle because the port is 97% damaged IIRC) on the island and they repaired about 62 runway points in one turn. If I had two engineer units or a full ID with all the engineers I am sure I would have started repair on the service damage as well. Thus my supposition that there are not a huge number of engineers at Moresby. I know there could be other explanations, but this one feels best to me.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. Only engineers repair damage. First they repair the runway, then the service damage, then the port. That's what the manual states and what I've always observed. Your observations don't really counteract the claim either I don't think.

< Message edited by Sangeli -- 8/26/2015 7:10:06 AM >

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 2:43:40 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

Sangeli: I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. Only engineers repair damage. First they repair the runway, then the service damage, then the port. That's what the manual states and what I've always observed. Your observations don't really counteract the claim either I don't think.


Not so - on many occasions I have had units with no engineers repair the runways - slow, but they can do it. In my previous example the US infantry troops brought the damage down from 97% to 85% over a period of days before I was able to bring in an engineer unit.
That may not work for high level runways but the I have never needed to repair those without engineers.
Try using one of the Separate US Regiments on a small base that has been plastered by naval bombardment.

I have been playing only stock scenarios but I haven't seen any mention of a change in any of the newer scenarios.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 5:36:54 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

Sangeli: I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. Only engineers repair damage. First they repair the runway, then the service damage, then the port. That's what the manual states and what I've always observed. Your observations don't really counteract the claim either I don't think.


Not so - on many occasions I have had units with no engineers repair the runways - slow, but they can do it. In my previous example the US infantry troops brought the damage down from 97% to 85% over a period of days before I was able to bring in an engineer unit.
That may not work for high level runways but the I have never needed to repair those without engineers.
Try using one of the Separate US Regiments on a small base that has been plastered by naval bombardment.

I have been playing only stock scenarios but I haven't seen any mention of a change in any of the newer scenarios.

I've only seen it if they have some squads (devices) that have the engineering ability toggled in the scenario file. One thing you can look at in such situations if to select the hex in question and mouse-over the unit icon on the map to see the "E" figure for total engineering value. Likewise mouse-over and individual unit icon at the bottom of the screen to seen that unit's E value.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 5:37:03 PM   
Mike McCreery


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Status: offline 		I agree with BB here.

No improvments can be conducted without engineers but I have seen repairs happen.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 6:10:35 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

I agree with BB here.

No improvments can be conducted without engineers but I have seen repairs happen.

My point is that just because the name does not include the wording "engineer" does not mean a device (squad) does not have that ability coded in the scenario file.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 6:44:34 PM   
HansBolter


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Status: offline 		Have to state that I am more inclined to believe that regular untrained GI Joes are capable of shoveling a bomb crater full of dirt. albeit at a slower arte than an engineering trained individual and that aspect is modeled in game than I am inclined to believe there are hidden "ninja" engineers embedded in my forces.

It just makes sense that any manpower can be used to repair while only skilled and trained manpower can be used to build.

I can't say I have taken note of this effect in the way BBFanboy has, but it just makes sense.

I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for it now.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/26/2015 7:09:14 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Have to state that I am more inclined to believe that regular untrained GI Joes are capable of shoveling a bomb crater full of dirt. albeit at a slower arte than an engineering trained individual and that aspect is modeled in game than I am inclined to believe there are hidden "ninja" engineers embedded in my forces.

It just makes sense that any manpower can be used to repair while only skilled and trained manpower can be used to build.

I can't say I have taken note of this effect in the way BBFanboy has, but it just makes sense.

I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for it now.

It makes sense IRL, but in the game it does not work that way. When you believe you are seeing it happen, double check with the mouse-overs that I have suggested. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I have made these observations in the past and seen runways remain damaged with lots of GIs on site.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/27/2015 1:07:22 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Have to state that I am more inclined to believe that regular untrained GI Joes are capable of shoveling a bomb crater full of dirt. albeit at a slower arte than an engineering trained individual and that aspect is modeled in game than I am inclined to believe there are hidden "ninja" engineers embedded in my forces.

It just makes sense that any manpower can be used to repair while only skilled and trained manpower can be used to build.

I can't say I have taken note of this effect in the way BBFanboy has, but it just makes sense.

I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for it now.

It makes sense IRL, but in the game it does not work that way. When you believe you are seeing it happen, double check with the mouse-overs that I have suggested. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but I have made these observations in the past and seen runways remain damaged with lots of GIs on site.

I have had HQ units repair runways. No engineers there! Whatever it is - the damage keeps declining when there are a bunch of your guys there, no matter what stripe. They do need to be in supply (fed) and have reasonable morale/disruption/fatigue numbers.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/27/2015 11:55:21 AM   
HansBolter


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Took a look last night at one of the (Sep) American Regiments mentioned by BBFanboy.

It wasn't alone at a base with damage but it shows no engineer devices in it's list of devices and no E's show as present in the on-map mouse over.

If as BBFB states he has seen repairs happen at based manned solely by one of these units then it happened without engineers involved.


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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/27/2015 1:22:32 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Took a look last night at one of the (Sep) American Regiments mentioned by BBFanboy.

It wasn't alone at a base with damage but it shows no engineer devices in it's list of devices and no E's show as present in the on-map mouse over.

If as BBFB states he has seen repairs happen at based manned solely by one of these units then it happened without engineers involved.


In those situations in my game I have consistently seen no repairs happen! If you see repairs happen you might check the other units at the base (mousing-over the LCU icon on the main map is a shortcut because the pop-up will give you the aggregate E total for the stack).

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/27/2015 3:15:29 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Took a look last night at one of the (Sep) American Regiments mentioned by BBFanboy.

It wasn't alone at a base with damage but it shows no engineer devices in it's list of devices and no E's show as present in the on-map mouse over.

If as BBFB states he has seen repairs happen at based manned solely by one of these units then it happened without engineers involved.


In those situations in my game I have consistently seen no repairs happen! If you see repairs happen you might check the other units at the base (mousing-over the LCU icon on the main map is a shortcut because the pop-up will give you the aggregate E total for the stack).

You are making me wonder if there is a difference between game versions, because we are both so certain of what we have seen. Are you playing DBB or other newer, unofficial scenarios?

Re: the non-repair you are seeing, I checked my current game where three Brit Bdes with NO Engineers (by devices or roll-over check) have been stuck in a base with completely destroyed level 3 AF and port. They have been badly affected by malaria (disruption 10-12, fatigue 25-28) but are slowly repairing the AF at about two points a turn. Makes me think a Level 4 AF would not be repaired or would repair so slowly that you would not notice progress every turn.
It makes sense that once an AF gets a paved surface it needs better repairs than just hole filling, and engineers would have to do it.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/27/2015 3:40:39 PM   
Mundy


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Status: offline 		FYI, this particular game is DBB-C IronBabes.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/27/2015 4:18:15 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Took a look last night at one of the (Sep) American Regiments mentioned by BBFanboy.

It wasn't alone at a base with damage but it shows no engineer devices in it's list of devices and no E's show as present in the on-map mouse over.

If as BBFB states he has seen repairs happen at based manned solely by one of these units then it happened without engineers involved.


In those situations in my game I have consistently seen no repairs happen! If you see repairs happen you might check the other units at the base (mousing-over the LCU icon on the main map is a shortcut because the pop-up will give you the aggregate E total for the stack).

You are making me wonder if there is a difference between game versions, because we are both so certain of what we have seen. Are you playing DBB or other newer, unofficial scenarios?

Re: the non-repair you are seeing, I checked my current game where three Brit Bdes with NO Engineers (by devices or roll-over check) have been stuck in a base with completely destroyed level 3 AF and port. They have been badly affected by malaria (disruption 10-12, fatigue 25-28) but are slowly repairing the AF at about two points a turn. Makes me think a Level 4 AF would not be repaired or would repair so slowly that you would not notice progress every turn. I'll be on the lookout for that, but my PBMs are moving so slowly right now that it might be 2016 before I can give you an update!
It makes sense that once an AF gets a paved surface it needs better repairs than just hole filling, and engineers would have to do it.

I'm not at all arguing about what makes sense IRL and I do agree with that assessment. But the code does what it does regardless of that and we are just trying to make sure we understand what the code actually does. The scenario files won't change that either, only the game code. BTW, to answer your question I am running the latest Beta, which is the exact same code as the official release (per MichaelM). the scenario files can change what device has what capabilities, but anything with engineering ability - AFAIK - will show up in the mouse-overs discussed. If not that would possibly be a bug for referral to Michael. The scenario files can also give a device engineering ability but name it "Street Light Mk I" so we have to rely on the mouse-overs and/or the base display (shows engineers and engineer vehicles present) and not the names of the devices.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/28/2015 3:15:03 PM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Is it bad when I have a dream last night about kicking off the Colombo invasion?

Too much to think about, I guess.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/28/2015 3:52:06 PM   
Mike McCreery


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Status: offline 		I have no hard evidence but it does seem like there are occasions where non-engineering units can repair airfields and/or ports.

Having a background in programming I realize that this could be a minor bug in the program or unseen settings in the database for the units or indeed it could be a legitimate part of the game which is nuanced so much as to allow people to miss minor details.

It would be interesting to see examples of repair where units did not have engineers and then take a look at their composition and database coding and that might point to a clear direction.

Ultimately though, the repairs going on are minor and of such little import as to have almost no effect on the strategic level of the game. If you want something repaired in a realistic timeline you need to bring in engineers. And that fact has caused me to just skim over the minor inconsistencies.



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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/28/2015 3:52:50 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Is it bad when I have a dream last night about kicking off the Colombo invasion?

Too much to think about, I guess.


It was only bad if you woke up in a cold sweat and had eaten half of your pillow...



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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/28/2015 6:42:12 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

Is it bad when I have a dream last night about kicking off the Colombo invasion?

Too much to think about, I guess.


It was only bad if you woke up in a cold sweat and had eaten half of your pillow...



Or if it was a "wet" dream ...

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/28/2015 9:58:42 PM   
Mundy


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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/29/2015 2:30:36 PM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
Status: offline 		22 September 1943

CF hasn't had fighters up at Port Moresby since that last incident. I've pounded the airfield and now the port last turn, putting them at 100 and 40, respectively. I'm resting/training everyone this turn.

One of his subs hit my 620+ minefield at Canton. It'll probably be lucky to get back. The victim was I-174. I do have 4 ACMs there to maintain it. Yesterday, my planes discovered transports at Baker and launched a strike. Unfortunately, the SBDs got lost.

quote:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Baker Island at 149,136

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 1,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
TBF-1 Avenger x 18

Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
xAK Yamazato Maru, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Tamagawa Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x TBF-1 Avenger bombing from 1000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb


As far as my subs go, I have about 14 surrounding Ceylon, 2 at Madras, and a few more between Rangoon and Malaya. Another 3-4 are inbound to Bombay from Cape Town. My anti-commerce campaign is chipping away.

quote:

Sub attack near Brunei at 66,86

Japanese Ships
TK Nichiei Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Juko Maru
E W-6

Allied Ships
SS Sunfish

SS Sunfish launches 2 torpedoes at TK Nichiei Maru
Sunfish bottoming out ....
E W-6 fails to find sub, continues to search...
E W-6 fails to find sub, continues to search...
E W-6 fails to find sub, continues to search...
E W-6 fails to find sub, continues to search...
E W-6 fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


quote:

Sub attack near Aogashima at 112,66

Japanese Ships
xAK Kagu Maru, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
xAK Marei Maru
xAK Nippo Maru
SC Ch 25

Allied Ships
SS Trout

SS Trout launches 2 torpedoes at xAK Kagu Maru
Trout diving deep ....
SC Ch 25 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 25 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 25 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 25 fails to find sub, continues to search...
SC Ch 25 fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub


I'm starting to catch convoys south of Japan, which simply didn't happen before. That and the fact that he's using xAKs to ship fuel may mean that the economy may not be in that great of shape.

The last Coastwatcher reports indicate Zuikaku at Rabaul and Shokaku at Luganville. It's pretty safe to say that with all these reports, they're somewhere between Rabaul and Noumea.

I've seen that I do have an amphib Force at Cape Town. I'll have them to supervise the invasion. Wasp and a couple CVLs are on map now, along with a few TFs full of troop transports, bound for Karachi. I've just dispatched three CVEs from Cape Town, also. I'm re-basing all the assault transports to Karachi as I ship troops over. Half the commercial stuff is returning to Cape Town. The commercial stuff will haul all the follow-on support troops to Colombo.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/29/2015 6:28:24 PM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		Do you have an AGC at CT to take that Amphib. Force HQ?

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/29/2015 6:51:15 PM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
Status: offline 		Yeah, it showed up a few turns ago in Panama. On the way to Cape Town. That's when my question came up between Amphib Forces and Corps.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/29/2015 11:23:08 PM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
Status: offline 		23 September 1943

I'm wondering about my Coastwatchers. Now Shokaku is supposedly docked at Lord Howe. I've moved my bomber wing off of Moresby to Brisbane and have a port attack set up. Jugs will sweep and Lightnings will escort. I'm sorry, but even the remotest chance of catching any part of KB at dock is worth jumping at. Bagging a pair would make my life easier.

In the Aleutians, my recon Liberators are checking out the Kuriles. Uruppu Jima, oddly enough, has 43 fighters based there. Probably a Nate training squadron.

I got some soft hits on the last sub west of Karachi. Two ASW groups of USN destroyers are busy there right now. As soon as they arrive, I'll start siccing DMs on them. I may have better luck with the Hedgehogs. A couple groups of assault transports with troops are on map and approaching. Lots of supply are with them.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/30/2015 8:15:23 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
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From: Neenah
Status: offline 		25 September 1943

Short-ish update. Just the one sweep of Jugs left Brisbane for Lord Howe. They came out of it with a 6-1 lead. Bombers didn't fly for some reason.

Last turn, I added a 2nd squadron of P-47s to sweep. They pretty much broke even this time. The P-38s escorting the bombers took losses, though, as well as about half a dozen bombers. No carriers there, but I sunk three ACMs. They must have been small, since I got the "obliterated" message with each hit.

All my Ceylon invaders are at or enroute to Karachi. Nine infantry divisions plus extras are there now. Two more divisions enroute. Lots of supply coming with each. Once everyone gets there, nearly all my assault transports will be present, barring some late sendoffs to Cape Town from Panama.

A commando unit showed up at Aden, which I didn't notice during the turn. Saw in in Tracker afterwards. They'll be part of the central para drop.

I have lots of AMs in Cape Town, which I'm also sending across. No mine surprises for me. Lots of them carry Hedgehogs, which is doubly nice.

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RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/30/2015 8:38:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Did he rename those ACMs: "Zuikaku and Shokaku, etc." ? Inscrutable LYBs can be very creative!

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 8/30/2015 9:38:58 PM >

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1197
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/30/2015 8:51:02 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I wonder at times. I also wonder about the drug addled reports from my Coastwatchers. I think Koumac and/or Luganville are more credible. After raking Fuso and Yamashiro over the coals at Colombo, I doubt he would ever anchor anything big within LBA range again.

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(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 1198
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/30/2015 10:40:23 PM   
Sangeli


Posts: 1132
Joined: 3/29/2012
From: San Francisco
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I wonder at times. I also wonder about the drug addled reports from my Coastwatchers. I think Koumac and/or Luganville are more credible. After raking Fuso and Yamashiro over the coals at Colombo, I doubt he would ever anchor anything big within LBA range again.

In my experience the coast watcher reports of a specific ship in a port are almost never right. I remember seeing reports of the BB Yamato being disbanded in Port Moresby when I knew for certain it was just a damaged DD from a battle the previous day. Other coastwatcher intel seems to be accurate but not putting specific ships in bases.

(in reply to Mundy)
Post #: 1199
RE: Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy vs Cannonfodder - 8/30/2015 11:14:53 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		I still have credit for officially sinking Yamato, despite the fact she was bombarding Sydney afterwards. It needs to be swapped for Yamashiro.

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(in reply to Sangeli)
Post #: 1200
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