RE: German accuracy fix!

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Close Combat Series >> Close Combat - Gateway to Caen >> RE: German accuracy fix!

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RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/6/2015 4:34:00 AM

STIENER

Posts: 857
Joined: 1/7/2001
From: Vancouver, Canada
Status: offline

really? LOL......your kidding right? like i said above to pip...i dont no what history your reading? but there is some truth to what you have to say regarding break downs of equipment but 1 shot in 100 being a kill?? LOL. all the other tanks and equipment broke down after recieving a glancing blow from a high velocity 75 mm or 88 mm gun??? LOL really?

read the new book "Blood, Steel, and Myth"about kursk. its a fairly un biased book per say [ most other accounts only use the really, really, biased russian authors accounts and information ] about kursk using the newly aquired 2 SS panzer corps battle field reports. as well as 1st hand accounts from german and russian troops.
this will give you a historical account of what really happened at kursk and a real insite into what a premier veteran german panzer corps was capable of doing and inflicting in battle. the russian and german tank loss stats are enlighting. [ kills and break downs are included ]

one thing is for certain.. these veteran german troops were not missing 99 shots for evey one kill.....

(in reply to zakblood)

Post #: 31

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/6/2015 6:04:13 AM

zakblood

Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline

ok, look at number of units involved, tanks first, then goto anti tanks guns, then anti tank mines, then knocked out tanks, destroyed tanks, and tanks in total in the battle on both sides, the numbers for one don't add up, second if every tank got only re supplied with ammo only once, who shot up and destroyed all the others? if they got resupplied with ammo for every day the battle went on, every unit, then how come more units didn't get destroyed if it's more than the number i gave?

it wouldn't make sense, let move forward in time and got to last combat in Iraq, pick any tank engagement, and try and find units involved and ammo expenditure, if a tank crew claimed 10 destroyed units, 9 normally were soft targets that didn't even need the main gun to be destroyed with either, as the US have now re looked at soft target kills using gun sight cams and tried to re train crews on better use of heavy ammo, but in the heat of battle if it moves it gets shot at.

so again i will try and explain a unit doesn't miss 99 out of 100 shots either, only 1 or on a total firing of 100 units maybe average were a kill shot, with less being hits to super structure or soft targets like AT units or even infantry.

one shot one kill is fantasy for tanks in the age or even today, same as snipers or planes dropping laser guided bombs, TV only shows the ones that hit, not the % that goes off target, if the score / hit ratio was higher, please explain how the great tank commander in history of tank warfare had such a low tank kill score, with most of the kills a high 70/80% being soft targets?

same question for snipers in history, first shot for most units, tank or any sort of gun is for ranging, thats why it's called a ranging shot, if the target is moving you have the range on the second, but are only lucky if you get it even with the next one, most shots are to stop it from stopping and firing back, as at this time period most aren't accurate enough on the move and had to stop to be sure of a good chance of a hit even.

i could go on all day, but elite units over many years, look at the numbers, even guess them, 365 days a year with what lets say 200? in combat, 2 years to live? should get you a kill score from a tank of what?

1000 shots fired gives if your lucky how many tanks killed / knocked out, the maths don't add up on the example giving, add in total number of tanks in use by one side and see how many the others lost, and do the maths, remembering to take away the biggest tank killers, mines, AT guns and planes, then go for break downs, lack of parts/fuel so crew destroyed, then see what is left and divide by umber in use and what's left, gives a total per unit kill of what?

books can be like films regarding numbers, i've seen many times more units bing destroyed that what ever built, so if you own the battlefield you repair the damaged one and bring them back into the next battle yes, but if you loose the battle and don't own the land, then all is lost...

< Message edited by zakblood -- 2/6/2015 7:06:41 AM >

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 32

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/7/2015 3:04:44 AM

SteveMcClaire

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
the BG's in GWTC are almost ALL Premier german divisions. they are veterans and should be treated in the game as such. some of these BG's may have been short of man power as stated above [ smaller squads] but they were not ever short of well trained fighting men and an esprit de corps that was second to none... and weapons to match.
if you want to have your few lower quality BG's miss evey shot thats fine. i could almost live with that, but not the veteran BG's.

No team in the game will miss every shot.

As for the German panzer divisions in France, most where there for one reason -- they had been all but destroyed in Russia and needed to be rebuilt with new personnel. They had a veteran cadre, yes. But they also had a lot of new troops too. Even these units were not homogeneous collections of uber-veterans.

I believe we've been consistent on this issue -- If you would like the game to play differently, edit the data files and increase the experience and morale on all the German teams to the maximum and make all weapons have maximum accuracy.

Steve

(in reply to STIENER)

Post #: 33

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/9/2015 8:34:01 AM

VegasOZ

Posts: 295
Joined: 7/30/2014
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I have been playing this game for the first time since I bought it a few months ago. I am seeing a great deal of Tiger Tanks getting destroyed by 1 shot Allied tanks. Sherman FireFly and British Matilda tanks seem to need only one shot to kill a Tiger I. Is that accurate historically?
Also the FireFly was seemingly impervious to fire from two Tigers at medium to short range.

Is there a way to adjust the firepower of the tanks on either side?

(in reply to SteveMcClaire)

Post #: 34

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/9/2015 8:54:05 PM

SteveMcClaire

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
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You can adjust the armor and penetration ratings of any vehicle or weapon in the game by modifying the data files, yes. The weapons.txt file contains the armor penetration data and the vehicles.txt file the vehicle armor values. However the data is as accurate as it can be given some of the abstractions used in the CC engine, and you should get generally realistic armor penetration results when vehicles hit.

That said, you will see unusual results from time to time, because there is a random factor involved and outliers can occur. A Firefly /can/ win a duel with two Tigers, but it's going to be rare.

Steve

(in reply to VegasOZ)

Post #: 35

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/27/2015 8:59:30 PM

VegasOZ

Posts: 295
Joined: 7/30/2014
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How do you read those files? I do not see any headers. Is there a way to find out what numbers represent what values?

Thanks

(in reply to SteveMcClaire)

Post #: 36

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/28/2015 2:53:44 AM

Platoon_Michael

Posts: 1119
Joined: 3/9/2003
Status: offline

@ VegasOZ,
You will need the workbook or use these to edit the files.

I do not know if Matrix has made a workbook for GWTC like the other games.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3714638

(in reply to VegasOZ)

Post #: 37

RE: German accuracy fix! - 2/28/2015 2:58:44 AM

VegasOZ

Posts: 295
Joined: 7/30/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoon_Michael

@ VegasOZ,
You will need the workbook or use these to edit the files.

I do not know if Matrix has made a workbook for GWTC like the other games.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3714638

Thanks, I got the workbook for it.

(in reply to Platoon_Michael)

Post #: 38

RE: German accuracy fix! - 3/2/2015 3:59:01 PM

SteveMcClaire

Posts: 4472
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline

Thanks for answering that, Platoon Michael.

VegasOZ - there are a fair number of experienced modders on these forums. If you have questions, a post in the "Mods and Scenarios" section will usually get a quick answer.

Steve

(in reply to VegasOZ)

Post #: 39

RE: German accuracy fix! - 3/8/2015 1:44:46 PM

johnsilver

Posts: 188
Joined: 2/7/2012
From: Florida
Status: offline

quote:

one thing is for certain.. these veteran german troops were not missing 99 shots for evey one kill.....

It's consistent with earlier versions of CC on either a scenario starting and right away a tank will get destroyed, or a tank taking every AP round from a hidden gun that should be able to penetrate it (green circle), yet it is barely damaged until the AT gun runs out of shells.

There is nothing that can be done with regards to the scenario open/tank immediately brewed up by AT gun/tank fire, but I have found a way to work around the gun that refuses to damage a tank.. Set the gun to "ambush" and leave it that way for 30 seconds or so and hope it still isn't spotted, then set it back to "defend". Many times the 1st-2nd shot it finally severely damages or kills the tank, as long as it had the green, or yellow circle.

(in reply to SteveMcClaire)

Post #: 40

RE: German accuracy fix! - 8/21/2015 5:37:44 PM

sepp3gd

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/6/2015
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If you failed to influence your crew to victory, I say that according to the German doctrine of combat during WWII, which states any good commander will defend his subordinate soldiers' reputations to the death by instead blaming only himself, only the commander in charge are to blame. Therefore I point the finger at YOU!
I have had several dozen one shot "kills" with German LWs. Some scored on Shermans with LWs as small as 20mm in caliber.
I found that crew experience and morale have always had everything to do with this; given that I placed them in a good position of ambush. After placing a great crew into a great ambush position, all I had to do was wait and leave it up to them to fire, and they always fired with the correct range set and placed the shot in an effective place to kill or incapacitate the enemy.
However, I have gotten "frightened" myself and ordered a crew to fire prematurely and miss, resulting in their death. But when I re-played the same scenario over again, and allowed the crew to fire at will, they were successful and lived. The same goes for panzerfausts. Furthermore, given a less experienced crew with lower morale, they almost always tend to fire prematurely and miss, even when given the ambush order.
I find that LWs work best when you are able to deploy them in groups of at least 5. Under other circumstances where 5 are not available, a combination of LWs, panzerfausts, mortar smoke, and infantry support all deployed well behind the front works well.
Another tactic, though grotesque: When I am aware that the enemy is certain to target and destroy my LWs with heavy mortar fire, I provide them with a less important target that will draw their fire and expend their ammunition (20mm LW are certain to draw fire, as well as an MG42 in an elevated position 3 stories or higher). Both are in high supply, relatively easy to replace, and don't pose much of an AT threat at all, but if you place these in a position to open fire first, where they are relatively concealed and covered, they tend to almost always draw the enemy mortar fire for an indefinite duration that is usually sufficient to expend a good portion, if not all, of their ammunition. With the mortars taken care of, the greatest threat in my opinion is eliminated. Strong infantry support well forward of the LW works to hold up enemy infantry and spare your ambush from spoil. These enemy infantry almost always will move ahead of their tanks for the specific purpose of spotting any AT weapons and threats, and you can use this against them if you both deploy the right amount of infantry as well engage the right amount of your infantry into combat to initially hold up the enemy forward recon long enough while simultaneously convincing them that your actual strength is low enough in this particular area so that they commit their infantry to this area of attack, and then subsequently you now, having deployed a strong enough force in this area and thus far have managed to not engage them so that their presence has not been given away, manage to repel the enemy infantry long enough that they now commit their tanks into battle, and you have taken into account, all of this beforehand with the very consideration that your primary goal is the destruction of the enemy armor with your LW(s) once the enemy commits, then you have placed your infantry in a position that the enemy armor will, when attacking your infantry in support of it's own infantry, present itself as a perfect target for your LW(s), you can achieve the destruction of the enemy armor in this manner, and if not win the battle, cause enough timidity amongst the enemy that a truce is accepted and or offered, and the enemy does not advance any further for fear of losing any more armor. If you have 5 or only 1 LW, this tactic will work if employed properly. The key is to never allow the enemy to know your actual strength by intentionally misleading them with bold patrols and counterattacks combined with sound deployment of your troops.

< Message edited by sepp3gd -- 8/21/2015 6:46:57 PM >

(in reply to SteveMcClaire)

Post #: 41

RE: German accuracy fix! - 8/24/2015 2:44:48 PM

Housies

Posts: 55
Joined: 3/4/2014
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On that note, tactics are indeed superior to troop quality.

I played a multiplayer match last week against an experienced player. Tiger BG against a standard 15 inf Div.
Result: 6 Tigers killed, 0 losses on Allies side.
Map: first map when doing op Epsom, can't recall the name but lots of open space.
Time: at night.

German player was cornered in the left bottom of the map. I had 2 AT in the north on the elevated road and 3 churchill tanks in the right bottom corner of the map.
At first, neither of us could see anything under the cover of darkness. However I deployed my flare and spotted 4 tigers in the open. Ordered my AT guns to open fire and was able to take each tiger out with 2-3 shots per tiger. The german player however could not spot my AT guns so had no idea what was happening.

Epic battle!

(in reply to sepp3gd)

Post #: 42

RE: German accuracy fix! - 7/31/2016 6:14:36 PM

madmatx

Posts: 2
Joined: 6/16/2015
Status: offline

Ran into this train while looking for advice on another topic, but here's my two-cents. Playing a Odin's Anvil campaign as the Axis with a couple infantry groups and a couple pak 75s as support, I moved onto a map at the same time a British group with a couple of tank platoons. I ran around gathering victory locations until the Tommy Tanks started showing up, and since I had entered the map this turn my paks weren't very well located. One of them was able to engage a SP 10 at extreme range as it was crossing a hedge, and after several shots knocked it out. I'm not sure Tommy ever got a line on my 75, which makes me glad, because while they call them field guns, the don't have much protection in the middle of a field.... But the battle goes on. I'm pulling what's left of my forward infantry units back, and I hear BONG "Bailing out!" as my other pak 75, which had been sitting, ignored, on ambush, does a medium range one-shot on a Firefly.
Maybe the key to accuracy with a field gun is the same as with a rifle. Take your time, sight in, adjust for windage and movement, and BONG.

< Message edited by madmatx -- 7/31/2016 7:12:35 PM >

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(in reply to Housies)

Post #: 43

RE: German accuracy fix! - 4/18/2017 9:42:57 PM

Digs

Posts: 48
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

I find the accuracy as it is in Gateway to Caen makes for nerve wracking battles, and are more appealing to me. They give you a chance to maneuver your vehicles without being aim-botted along the route.

< Message edited by Digs -- 4/18/2017 9:44:06 PM >

(in reply to zakblood)

Post #: 44