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RE: OP nation, Vichy France

 
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RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/22/2014 11:35:15 AM   
Centuur


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Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

OK, I tested what happens when the US is at war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but not Vichy France. MWiF selects all US entry options except for the US getting Northern Ireland. In other words, MWiF is ignoring Vichy France for the purposes of figuring out if the US is at war with all Axis powers.

I have not tested what limits there are on Vichy France's units. At some point, I might do so, but not immediately.


We have to put this in as a bug, I believe...

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Peter

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 31
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/22/2014 2:42:51 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not sure anyone has ever really considered Vichy France interaction with automatic selection of US Entry options, or whether a completely neutral Vichy France should be allowed to become a worldwide Axis pirate force while the Allies await US Entry in to Active War in the European theater. I think this thread was a very good catch of a strange rules situation by WarHunter. Only increasing the number of games played, as MWiF will do, can reveal such things.

And this is probably another case where shoehorning MWiF into the rules only as they exist in version 7m, August 2004, or 7m + 2007 Annual errata, isn't the best choice. The rules language can always have potential bugs in it before anyone starts to codify them into a computer program. This question in the original post also ultimately reveals language bugs with neutral major powers and how naval combat is initiated, which differs between the Interception rule, and two different wordings in the main Naval Combat rule.

And a simple RAC deviation bringing MWiF into line with the future of the paper game, as has already been done with the idea of a Vichy NEI, is probably a better way to go.


The Northern Ireland option, by the way, only "allows" the US to occupy the place via an announcement in the DOW phase (changing hex control) in the future (with CW agreement), just as the Iceland/Greenland option does (no need to consult CW). Neither make those events happen automatically.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 32
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/23/2014 3:21:47 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

OK, I tested what happens when the US is at war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but not Vichy France. MWiF selects all US entry options except for the US getting Northern Ireland. In other words, MWiF is ignoring Vichy France for the purposes of figuring out if the US is at war with all Axis powers.

I have not tested what limits there are on Vichy France's units. At some point, I might do so, but not immediately.


Was Vichy France neutral or just not at war with the USA?



Joseignacio I think OP = optional.

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(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 33
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/23/2014 5:01:41 AM   
Courtenay


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Joined: 11/12/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

OK, I tested what happens when the US is at war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but not Vichy France. MWiF selects all US entry options except for the US getting Northern Ireland. In other words, MWiF is ignoring Vichy France for the purposes of figuring out if the US is at war with all Axis powers.

I have not tested what limits there are on Vichy France's units. At some point, I might do so, but not immediately.


Was Vichy France neutral or just not at war with the USA?



Joseignacio I think OP = optional.

Vichy France was at war with the CW, but not hostile. I started with the Waking Giant scenario.

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(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 34
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/23/2014 9:47:48 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

OK, I tested what happens when the US is at war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but not Vichy France. MWiF selects all US entry options except for the US getting Northern Ireland. In other words, MWiF is ignoring Vichy France for the purposes of figuring out if the US is at war with all Axis powers.

I have not tested what limits there are on Vichy France's units. At some point, I might do so, but not immediately.


Was Vichy France neutral or just not at war with the USA?



Joseignacio I think OP = optional.


Thanks! Could be "Opposite too", no?



< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 10/23/2014 12:31:44 PM >

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 35
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/23/2014 12:27:11 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
We have to put this in as a bug, I believe...



How bout I send this email to Spitfire?


quote:

G'day Harry! Hope your doing excelent these days.

I'll try to not take up to much of your time. But at the MWiF forums it seems we have a disagreement as to how Vichy France is to be played.



Q1) Is Vichy France considered a Axis major power or a separate major power?
When Vichy France is:
Neutral,
At war but not Hostile,
At war and Hostile.



Q2) Does the USA have to DoW Vichy France in order to satisfy 13.3.2 US entry options? In particular...

"When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44 US occupies Northern Ireland)."



Q3) Can Vichy France get invloved in Naval combat:

When Vichy France is:
Neutral,
At war but not Hostile,
At war and Hostile.



I would like to thank you for a excellent game. In which I had the pleasure of being part of the ADG CWiF open beta.




Joseignacio is possiable.



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University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 36
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/23/2014 8:41:54 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
We have to put this in as a bug, I believe...



How bout I send this email to Spitfire?


quote:

G'day Harry! Hope your doing excelent these days.

I'll try to not take up to much of your time. But at the MWiF forums it seems we have a disagreement as to how Vichy France is to be played.



Q1) Is Vichy France considered a Axis major power or a separate major power?
When Vichy France is:
Neutral,
At war but not Hostile,
At war and Hostile.



Q2) Does the USA have to DoW Vichy France in order to satisfy 13.3.2 US entry options? In particular...

"When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44 US occupies Northern Ireland)."



Q3) Can Vichy France get invloved in Naval combat:

When Vichy France is:
Neutral,
At war but not Hostile,
At war and Hostile.



I would like to thank you for a excellent game. In which I had the pleasure of being part of the ADG CWiF open beta.




Joseignacio is possiable.




Send it...

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Peter

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 37
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/24/2014 2:20:42 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Just add "Playing RAW7:" prior to the questions.

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Paul

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 38
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/27/2014 6:30:52 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Dear Sir,

thank you for your email and kind words. Ansers below


 G'day Harry! Hope your doing excellent these days.

I'll try to not take up to much of your time. But at the MWiF forums it seems we have a disagreement as to how Vichy France is to be played.



In particular in rule 13.3.2 US entry options it says...

"When the US is at war with every unconquered Axis major power, you are treated as having chosen every entry option (except US entry option 44 US occupies Northern Ireland)."



Q1) Is Vichy France considered a Axis major power or a separate major power?

When Vichy France is:
Neutral,
At war but not Hostile,
At war and Hostile.
HR> It is an axis major power but this has been clarified as an exception, you don't need to be at war with her to choose every unchosen option.



Q2) Does the USA have to DoW Vichy France in order to satisfy 13.3.2 US entry options?
HR> No.



Q3) Can Vichy France participate in 11.5 Naval combat:

When Vichy France is:
Neutral,
At war but not Hostile,
At war and Hostile.
HR. Whenever she is at war she follows the normal rules of naval engagement irrespective of whether she is hostile or not (being hostile simplify frees up her ability to move large numbers of ships around).

regards
Harry Rowland
ADG




I would like to thank you for a excellent game. In which I had the pleasure of being part of the ADG CWiF open beta. 


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 39
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/27/2014 6:33:50 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		That's why I said to preface it with "Playing RAW7".

The clarifications Harry is talking about will be in RAW8, but until now have been unpublished outside of RAW8, to my knowledge.

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Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 40
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/27/2014 6:43:07 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline 		Email subject line reads: WiF-RaW-7-aug-04 questions on  Vichy France

Just as you suggested.



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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 41
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/28/2014 1:32:20 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline 		It's difficult to go back and forth between versions, I suspect just as much for Harry as for the RAW8 beta testers. Nonetheless the letter of the rule in RAW7 was Vichy was not excepted for the entry option choice and that neutral Vichy could attack US CPs and ships because (regardless of RAW7 or RAW8) Vichy is an Axis Major Power. Given that usually a neutral Vichy is controlled by Germany (which must husband her Naval and Combined impulses) and can only move one ship in such an impulse, it is extremely doubtful this would come up since Germany is bound to have better uses for those infrequent naval moves.

We now know from Courtenay's testing that MWiF is coded per Harry's clarification r.e. the automatic option choices upon war with Ge/It & JP, and overall the clarification is better for the game IMO. What has not been tested is whether neutral Vichy ships can attack US CPs and ships after Options 32 and 50 are passed. If they can't, all the better since that's in accordance with the clarification. If they can, then I guess players shouldn't do it and it should be reported as a low priority bug.

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Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 42
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/28/2014 2:53:01 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
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quote:

Nonetheless the letter of the rule in RAW7 was Vichy was not excepted for the entry option choice and that neutral Vichy could attack US CPs and ships because (regardless of RAW7 or RAW8) Vichy is an Axis Major Power.


Am I reading your post correctly you still think a Axis neutral major power can participate in 11.5 Naval combat


_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 43
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/28/2014 3:05:37 AM   
Courtenay


Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline 		I just tried testing US-Vichy naval interaction.

What I found was a bug. Neutral Vichy forces were allowed to intercept moving US naval forces, and US forces could intercept Vichy forces, but neither the US nor Vichy were allowed to initiate combat in the choose combat portion of the sequence of play. Furthermore, far worse, if Vichy successfully intercepted, and the US chose to fight through, or vice versa, a MadExcept was generated. If you told the game to continue, the game got stuck in the Naval Intercept Digression: Naval Combat Sequence, with no way to proceed.

Thus, at the moment, the US and a Vichy that is neutral with respect to the US can not fight in MWiF. I have only tested what happens if there are only US and Vichy forces in a sea area, with no units from other countries.

I suppose I should write up a bug report about this, since a MadExcept was generated, but I really don't feel like doing so at the moment.

Someday I will test what happens if Vichy forces are in the same sea box with other Axis forces that the US is at war with, and see what happens then.

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 44
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/28/2014 5:21:52 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous


quote:

Nonetheless the letter of the rule in RAW7 was Vichy was not excepted for the entry option choice and that neutral Vichy could attack US CPs and ships because (regardless of RAW7 or RAW8) Vichy is an Axis Major Power.


Am I reading your post correctly you still think a Axis neutral major power can participate in 11.5 Naval combat


As originally written in RAW7 there were cases where neutral Vichy and neutral Italy could do so if options 32 and 50 were passed. As clarified now by Harry, that is no longer the case.

What happens in MWiF (per Courtenay's testing) has yet to be completely discovered, but it's starting to look like it will result in a low priority bug report one way or the other.

BTW, do you still think a neutral Vichy is not an Axis major power?

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/28/2014 6:24:16 AM >

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Paul

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 45
RE: OP nation, Vichy France - 10/28/2014 2:19:27 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
 I am more than pleased with being right two out of three times

Harry Rowland generously provided his corrections.

Are you pleased with being wrong two out of three times



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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 46
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