Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West >> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 2:50:19 PM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Rebel in canoe
Forgets glory of Grotius,
Ruler of Asia.


_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 61
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 3:00:57 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Nothing wrong with waiting. This is a big purchase in game terms. When Command Modern Naval Operations came out I had all sorts of reservations and held off.

Over time and a nice 20% sale and I was on board.

Eventually we all succumb to the dark side....

(in reply to KenchiSulla)
Post #: 62
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 3:39:13 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		.....we do indeed

It hasn't got proper naval units, but even so, I just couldn't resist

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 63
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 3:54:04 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.....we do indeed

It hasn't got proper naval units, but even so, I just couldn't resist


Too bad it doesn't have a War in the Pacific naval system. I really enjoyed the naval combat and building of amphib task forces. It would add flavor to see your invasion fleet off Italy getting bombed and praying your LSTs and transports don't get hit.

I see in another thread they are considering something to add on for the air stuff. Perhaps a naval/air add on to give it a WitP flavor would be worthwhile. You could also add on a "what if" and give the Axis a decent naval/air component to see if the could not only seriously disrupt or even shoot up any Italian amphib invasion, but also contest a European invasion.

I may not have to revisit War in the East. Been collecting dust.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 12/5/2014 4:54:52 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 64
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 4:27:34 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.....we do indeed

It hasn't got proper naval units, but even so, I just couldn't resist


Too bad it doesn't have a War in the Pacific naval system. I really enjoyed the naval combat and building of amphib task forces. It would add flavor to see your invasion fleet off Italy getting bombed and praying your LSTs and transports don't get hit.



But that's about all you would see (off Italy, and France - 3 invasions in 2 years). Pretty much complete Allied air superiority in the Med by '43, and complete Naval dominance. You use the WitP bits three times, and then it's just auto convoy supplies. I would rather have the land supply and ground combat of WitE/W than that of WitP and losing the naval system because of it doesn't seem a bad swap to me!

< Message edited by HMSWarspite -- 12/5/2014 5:28:06 PM >

_____________________________

I have a cunning plan, My Lord

(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 65
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 4:35:53 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.....we do indeed

It hasn't got proper naval units, but even so, I just couldn't resist


Too bad it doesn't have a War in the Pacific naval system. I really enjoyed the naval combat and building of amphib task forces. It would add flavor to see your invasion fleet off Italy getting bombed and praying your LSTs and transports don't get hit.



But that's about all you would see (off Italy, and France - 3 invasions in 2 years). Pretty much complete Allied air superiority in the Med by '43, and complete Naval dominance. You use the WitP bits three times, and then it's just auto convoy supplies. I would rather have the land supply and ground combat of WitE/W than that of WitP and losing the naval system because of it doesn't seem a bad swap to me!


When the 39/41 module is added Allied air superiority in the Med won't be assured.

When WitW gets linked to WitE and WitP things will really get interesting. Looks like GG will be busy for some time. May not be able to retire on some island paradise till 90.

(in reply to HMSWarspite)
Post #: 66
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 5:23:33 PM   
orey22

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 1/27/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Great opinions, for and against, I enjoy both sides.

I think War in the East was and is an outstanding game, except the air warfare module just seems to be off a little.

I have great concerns about War in West but only about the air warfare module side. I have no doubt it's a great wargame, just worried the air module detracts fromt the game. I will buy at some point, but will hold off till more review come out on the air side.

I've always thought that if you ever played the boardgame "Redstorm Rising" the air warfare system was perfect, and would have fit well into the War in the West series, i.e you slot your squadrons into different regions for bombing, air superiority, interdiction etc, and then you compare with what the other side has done and winner is chosen each turn in each area. Maybe War in the West does this, and I hope it does, I guess I will find out in due time.

(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 67
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 5:24:22 PM   
modrow

 

Posts: 1100
Joined: 8/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Joel wrote this text way back in Feb 2012 (Original here:  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3051557  )

Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.

It's great to see all you WitP guys here - having played WitP, WPO and WitP:AE I merely observe that WitP is a principally a naval game with abstracted land units whereas WitW is a land game with an abstracted naval model.  I love your thinking but quite how it might work takes genius - thank goodness for GG.






Well, the way I read Joel's post (wishful thinking admittedly involved), I want to see a trend. WitE was a land game with abstracted air and naval model. WitW43 is a land game with abstracted naval model. WitW40 will provide the naval model. So we are on the road to heaven . Or hell

But first, let's enjoy some WitW43, as far as our PBEMs allow for it.

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 68
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 8:33:37 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Was busy yesterday so finally got it today. Thanks all who helped for the diligence!!

_____________________________

"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer

(in reply to modrow)
Post #: 69
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 8:48:52 PM   
rickier65

 

Posts: 14231
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
Well, though I'm not buying yet, I'm hoping/planning to buy after Christmas - In case I get a giftcard to use (one of few things on my Christmas list).

Several years ago I switched buying boxed versions of games and relied on the electronic manuals. But I'm planning to get the boxed version WitW for the manual. I'm looking forward to having this manual.

Thanks!
Rick

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 70
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 10:20:22 PM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB

I'm never in doubt about buying GG games, we've been having a great time together since "Warship" back in 85 and Ive never been dissappointed!
Family and a toddler keeps me from playing anything but the AI these days but, when PzB Jr is a bit older we will be returning with some AARs of our own - with tanks, can hardly wait

So gratz on another great release, will be a nice little Xmas treat


My first GG title was Pacwar. Man, did I ever love that one. I bought it twice even. Once in the box, and then once in a jeweled case.

_____________________________

"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/11/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 71
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/5/2014 10:26:57 PM   
Gilmer


Posts: 1452
Joined: 7/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

It's not marketing really -  it's development time.  WitW took well over two years.  If you push the timeline back beyond May 43 you really need a more developed naval game which adds another layer of complexity to iron out and balance. 


Additionally, it was originally slated for December 2013!! I remember reading a post about it "hopefully be(ing) ready for Christmas of 2013". That was missed, but we can see it takes time to get things right.

_____________________________

"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/11/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 72
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/6/2014 5:06:21 AM   
robinsa


Posts: 183
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Lots of respectable people giving their opinion in this thread. I find that the lack of naval operations and the IGO UGO system is the biggest turnoff for me. That being said, it might very well turn out to be a game I will enjoy a great lot and put many hours into.

(in reply to Gilmer)
Post #: 73
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/6/2014 5:13:22 AM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: robinsa

Lots of respectable people giving their opinion in this thread. I find that the lack of naval operations and the IGO UGO system is the biggest turnoff for me. That being said, it might very well turn out to be a game I will enjoy a great lot and put many hours into.


I've been tooling around with the Husky scenario. Once you get into the game and start tweaking the setting to your liking this game really begins to show its potential. Even without a robust naval operations system it really begins to grow on you.

(in reply to robinsa)
Post #: 74
RE: Gaming the system - 12/6/2014 1:59:16 PM   
cmunson


Posts: 6238
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Play balance problems just inevitably pop-up from games of this complexity, particularly after it's released and inventive players figure out creative ways to "game" the system, whether it's CV Death Stars, Lvov pockets, Artillery/tank stacks, HQ chaining, run-away gambits, etc. No doubt within the first few months someone will be invading Denmark in 1943 or para-dropping on Berlin or :"death-bombing" the Reich or some sort of unforeseen gambit that requires further tweaking to balance out. - Q-Ball


I've never been one to try and game the system so maybe I am not the best to comment but I think players will find a lot less to game in WitW. The constraints of shipping and the new logistics system (superb!) are one reason and another is the Allies don't have anything approaching force parity until mid 1944 so rushed invasions are very high risk indeed. "Gaming" issues revealed in testing were dealt with. For example, Berlin has a fortress unit to prevent a para drop from seizing the capital.

My only complaint is the ship foghorn noise sound effect - it scares my cats.

_____________________________

Chris

(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 75
RE: Gaming the system - 12/6/2014 2:03:10 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chris.munson
I've never been one to try and game the system so maybe I am not the best to comment but I think players will find a lot less to game in WitW. The constraints of shipping and the new logistics system (superb!) are one reason and another is the Allies don't have anything approaching force parity until mid 1944 so rushed invasions are very high risk indeed. "Gaming" issues revealed in testing were dealt with. For example, Berlin has a fortress unit to prevent a para drop from seizing the capital.


That's about my sense too - I'm sure gamers will find ways, but at release I think WITW is better balanced than WITE or WITP were at their releases.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to cmunson)
Post #: 76
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/6/2014 3:34:51 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

If by playable you mean that the game did not crash, etc., then you are correct. If you mean that the rules were well thought-out, and the game balanced (among many issues, the blizzard rules, 1:1=>2:1 rule, etc.), then I strongly disagree--hence the many patches the game has gone through.


I haven't been involved in WitW's testing for a fairly long while, but based on WitW's release, I'd say some very hard lessons were learned from WitE's release.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

You certainly have a right to that opinion. I disagree in that many of the issues you are pointing too only became issues after months or years of competitive multiplayer play where the community reached a consensus that they preferred a change from the original design.


This is a very unfair to the commitment of WitE's test team, Erik.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Actually I think that some of the significant issues, particularly the blizzard rules, were apparent right away, and it was difficult at the time to understand how they were overlooked during play-testing...


A game being released with certain problems doesn't mean feedback exposing those problems wasn't given.

-

As stated above, I have the impression that WitW is a significantly more polished product at release than WitE was, with all the new mechanics having been thoroughly tested it seems. Earlier in the thread, it was mentioned that due to the decreased turn numbers and in a way also the more limited scope (as you'll only have a fairly large numbers of divisions in the field in mid 1944 at the earliest) it's easier to balance than WitE. The fact that no one is jumping up and down the forum to answer questions or discuss potential issues, like I did when WitE is released is also a good sign if it isn't needed.

Personally, testing WitE and the aftermath of that testing, including the opinion that the test team failed as mentioned again by 76mm made it a bad experience for me, and after the initial testing of WitW I just wasn't going to let that happen to me again.

Out of all the developers I worked with, either as a tester or a team member, working with the team for WitE was my worst experience hands down. That didn't actually have anything to do with Joel and Pavel (the parttime programmer, who wanted to spend more time coding than explaining the mechanics, which was usually understandable: that was why he was in the team after all), the two team members I actually talked to, but rather with Gary never appearing on the forums to discuss the mechanics and never responding to feedback. It gave me a feeling that I had essentially wasted hundreds of hours as the feedback never got through to where it mattered.

As such, I won't be buying WitW. However, based on the initial impressions and what I'm hearing about the commitment of the test team in the stages where the game was truly playable, I think I can recommend the game if you enjoy strategic-scale wargames where you can really see your plans "grow up" as the historical reality of the game is such that you'll need a decent plan before invading as the Allies, and the air war also needs to be properly planned. It might sound like a paradox that I won't buy the game but still recommend it, but my reasons for not buying the game are personal and don't have anything to do with the merits of the game, which were already clear in the early testing stages when I was still in the test team.

WitE's combat engine, flawed as it was, was capable of simulating WWII combat with a reasonable degree of accuracy. The fact that it didn't doesn't mean that the capability to do so wasn't in the system. The AAR's and initial comments make it sound like this release is more like what WitE could have been, and what WitE 2.0 will hopefully be like.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/6/2014 4:36:18 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Qwixt)
Post #: 77
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/6/2014 4:35:17 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

You certainly have a right to that opinion. I disagree in that many of the issues you are pointing too only became issues after months or years of competitive multiplayer play where the community reached a consensus that they preferred a change from the original design.


This is a very unfair to the commitment of WitE's test team, Erik.


That comment actually had nothing to do with WITE's test team or test process. It's clear that you had a bad experience testing WITE - that was certainly not universal but please don't read all my comments through that filter. I was not trying to put down the WITE test team at all. For a complex game like WITE or WITW, because of the many moving parts, often to make major balance or design changes the development team needs to see some pretty overwhelming feedback and often that can only happen once a much larger group of players is playing through the game.


quote:

Out of all the developers I worked with, either as a tester or a team member, working with the team for WitE was my worst experience hands down. That didn't actually have anything to do with Joel and Pavel (the parttime programmer, who wanted to spend more time coding than explaining the mechanics, which was usually understandable: that was why he was in the team after all), the two team members I actually talked to, but rather with Gary never appearing on the forums to discuss the mechanics and never responding to feedback. It gave me a feeling that I had essentially wasted hundreds of hours as the feedback never got through to where it mattered.


Sorry to hear that - frankly, if Gary spent his time on the forum these games would never be finished. The team is setup so that feedback is collected and does flow to Gary as well as other team members. It's possible whatever feedback you are upset about not being heard was in fact heard, considered and a decision to not make a change made.

Frankly, I think that if you have an issue with the WITE test process from 4+ years ago, it would probably be more appropriate for you to discuss that with Joel and me via PM or e-mail rather than here. In any case, I'm glad that you think WITW solved the issues you had with WITE and I hope you will take a second look at WITW and WITE 2.0 in the future.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 12/6/2014 5:39:39 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 78
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/6/2014 7:19:46 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Frankly, I think that if you have an issue with the WITE test process from 4+ years ago, it would probably be more appropriate for you to discuss that with Joel and me via PM or e-mail rather than here.


It was brought up, I didn't bring it up. When someone posts that we had essentially failed, and instead of saying that certain features were still being tweaked or according to the developers required more feedback before being changed, you say that the issues 76mm mentioned only became issues after months of testing by players after release, that is not fair to the test team as a whole. You give the impression that those issues were not a concern around release.

I felt that the feedback wasn't managed properly due to a lack of direct contact with the main designer and programmer (Gary) and explanations as to why certain features were in the game/why they couldn't be changed. That doesn't mean the testing itself was all bad, as the potential was clearly there. The feeling that the game could have been better with less artifical rules was the most frustrating part, and not just for me.

Anyway, I'd say it's telling that when WitE was released, I made around a hundred posts per day on average whilst this release is going much more smoothly with the test coordinator making a handful of posts, Pavel looking at bugs and there clearly being fewer confused and sometimes negative impressions. That's also why I feel the quality of the game is probably more polished at release than WitE was. WitE was more of a true monster game in size, with lots of land combat that would nearly inevitably (from a statistical perspective) expose problems. WitW is also a monster game in spirit, but a larger part of the game is about planning and there's less room for gamey stuff.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/6/2014 8:22:39 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 79
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/6/2014 7:34:52 PM   
spinecruncher

 

Posts: 368
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I purchase these titles upfront because this is a niche market and I want to support the niche market I am interested in. WITE did not have Ubisoft size programming dept to deal with the complexity of such a rich game in the timely fashion everyone expects from Assassins Creed. That being said, Ubisoft is not putting out the genre of games I am interested in. So, I do not think the criticism is well placed when one considers that gamers in the genre are somewhat fortunate to have these few people plugging away with titles and scenarios/campaigns that take someone with the brains beyond a 12 year old to become immersed in. That being said, for some people $90 is a lot of money, and those are financial considerations only individual consumers can make.

(in reply to Qwixt)
Post #: 80
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 12/15/2014 9:10:51 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		Just want to say that I was also "not buying yet" due to purchasing the, in my opinion, very unfinished War in the East, and finally having to give up on it due to numerous unresolved issues.

However, I have purchased WitW today due to the LACK of tech support issues. Playing the Husky tutorial and enjoying to so far. It does appear that the issues that made War in the East so unappealing to me have been resolved with War in the West.

I extend my congratulations to the team that put this together. It has to be one of the most bug free games ever released by Matrix, and I am truly amazed by this wonderful turn of events in the release of games.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to spinecruncher)
Post #: 81
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/20/2015 2:11:22 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I started this thread back in December, I think on the day of WitW's release. (I should have waited a few days, as Bullwinkle suggested, to give the launch some breathing space before injecting a thread that was cautionary to negative.)

What I've seen thus far is a game that is complex, that some players love passionately, but that most of the wargaming community has turned it's shoulder to. There's almost nobody left in this forum. The AARs are few. Interest is waning. Judging by that, I'd say the markeplace has spoken.

Alot of time and effort went into a game. We're lucky an effort was made, but unfortunately it seems to have missed the mark.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next. Where is the future of strategic wargaming of the WWII era. If WitW hasn't satisfied, what will?

Meanwhile, check out the sustained interest in the WitP:AE forum. After six years, interest in that game seems to be increasing.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 5/20/2015 3:11:40 PM >

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 82
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/20/2015 6:24:25 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		I think comparing WitP:AE with WitW is comparing apples with pears. However it is an interesting study in game development.

WitP:AE is a product of a single clear line of development from UV to WitP and then WitP:AE over very many years. All in the same theatre of operations and with the same basic construct. You could argue the perfect approach to game development and AE has had further patches in the last 12 months. The calls on the WitP:AE forum for further development are great and show that people want more. I love WitP:AE. My very small part in helping John III and the team with Reluctant Admiral & BTS proves this.

WitE delivered the complete eastern front in one go. To do so forced a number of abstractions and such a complex endeavour was always risky. I argue that the early WitE balance issues demonstrate the inherent risk in this approach. None of the games in discussion were perfect on release but WitP had UV as a precursor.

In moving from east to west the development of WitW forced a major de-abstraction for the air model. Invasions forced a huge development of the logistics model. This was a different set of development problems to the Pacific theatre games. For WitW starting in 43 allowed heavy abstraction of the naval game. WitW still took four years! However the compromise was the inevitability of the winner and the Axis on the retreat.

Like boxing everyone wants a knockout, no-one likes losing and winning on points is a necessary evil. Personally I hate VPs and when I design a scenario setting them is by far the least enjoyable task. The start date of WitW forced a VP approach and I think that VPs have been a huge bone of contention.

WitP and WitE have appeal as everyone thinks that as Japanese or Axis a good start will make all the difference. WitW does not have that but it is still great and I'm very proud of my involvement.


< Message edited by Red Lancer -- 5/20/2015 7:26:49 PM >

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 83
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/20/2015 7:25:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It'll be interesting to see what happens next. Where is the future of strategic wargaming of the WWII era. If WitW hasn't satisfied, what will?

warspite1

The million dollar question, but the answer I see recurring time and time again is to model a game that both sides can win, that is on a knife edge from the word go. Can there be such a game in WWII? Well yes, definitely and I simply fail to understand why war in the Mediterranean from 1940 hasn't been properly done - with a proper stab at what is an exceptionally interesting naval situation. There are also relatively small numbers of land units allowing a game at detailed level on land as well as at sea and in the air.

This would have to be a winner surely??


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 84
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/20/2015 10:36:36 PM   
IslandInland


Posts: 891
Joined: 12/8/2014
From: YORKSHIRE
Status: offline 		WITW is not without it's issues, in my opinion the Axis seem to be overpowered, but I love the game and in an age of mobile "apps" I'm just glad games like this continue to be made.

It may take several years until the game is perfectly balanced and patched but I'm prepared to wait and hope more games and expansions are made with this map and this system. Hopefully the whole of WWII in Europe can be successfully simulated in those games and expansions.



_____________________________

War In The East 2 Beta Tester and
War In The West Operation Torch Beta Tester
XXXCorps

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 85
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/23/2015 6:56:15 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I predicted this a couple of months back. I was then accused of making "threats" which was about as far from my intentions that you could come... I wanted this game to succeed badly. I love WitE and my personal favorite have always been the Western Front. So this was my dream come true I thought.

I´m not going to go into details on why I think WitW failed but I´ll give some advice for "next time" if there is one.

- Don´t put an outrageous price on a product unless its absolutely 100% worth the money. WitW did not and still doesn´t warrant the insane price tag. People in this niche is willing to pay a lot of money for certain products but then it needs to deliver.
- Let your testers play the ENTIRE game. I was told by Helpless a while back that the wern´t allowed to do that which is absolutely insane. A lot (if not most) of the issues could have been avoided if at least SOME GCs would have been played in its fullest.
- Look at the whole picture and ask the big questions. THE most important one: Is this fun to play? Will it still be fun after a couple of months?
- When numerous people who have bought the game (and paid almost double that of a AAA title) express alarm on the forum about the game. Take that seriously. You didn´t with WitW and I´m sure that didn´t go unnoticed among people "on the fence".
- If you know a mechanic in the game is controversial (negative VP system). Why on earth use it?

This is the 2nd high profile launch that ended in a big disappointment. Realize you have some fundamental issues in your process and try to correct them. You are slowly but surely losing the reputation you spent years and years building up. You are now in a situation where people are "getting used" to overpriced products that don´t deliver. So they will no longer buy at launch but wait and see how its received and/or buy at a sale. This puts you in a position when you have to deliver a close to impeccable product or lower prices to get people to buy.

I really hope the next big launch works out. I need to have some faith restored.

PS. A big kudos to all the WitW BETA testers that did more then could have ever been expected to help people here on the forum and address concerns!

(in reply to IslandInland)
Post #: 86
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/23/2015 9:37:06 AM   
zakblood


Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline 		no comment

< Message edited by zakblood -- 6/1/2015 4:59:30 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 87
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/23/2015 12:46:37 PM   
bairdlander2


Posts: 2264
Joined: 3/28/2009
From: Toronto Ontario but living in Edmonton,Alberta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

- Let your testers play the ENTIRE game. I was told by Helpless a while back that the wern´t allowed to do that which is absolutely insane. A lot (if not most) of the issues could have been avoided if at least SOME GCs would have been played in its fullest.



I dont understand this,I finished my full game as a tester with Shermanny,at no time was I told by anyone from 2by3 to stop.It is pinned in the AAR section.

< Message edited by bairdlander -- 5/23/2015 1:48:43 PM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 88
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/23/2015 1:22:13 PM   
RedLancer


Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		That was news to me too but what would I know? I was only the Test Co-ordinator! The other suggestions made are much more valid, but if you agree with them, really only possible with the benefit of hindsight.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to bairdlander2)
Post #: 89
RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) - 5/23/2015 2:12:50 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		No need to be smug. Obviously I misunderstood Helpless.

But if players were allowed to play entire GCs I fail to understand how some major issues were not addressed before release?
-Supply bug in some Italian bases
-Naval interdiction completely out of control making landings almost impossible.

These are just two game breaking things that was fixed after a month or two. I wasn´t t out to point to specific issues but rather the fact that you when you charge close to 100 Euro for a game people expect (rightly so) perfection. Or very close to it. WitW didn´t deliver that and it was obvious on the forum that some people (including me) wasn´t very happy. This undoubtedly scared off many people that was "sitting on the fence" waiting to see how the game was received.

I´m not forcing my advice on anyone. I´m just giving it. I´m disappointed in the direction Matrix seem to be heading. I´m definitively not alone in that. Feel free to continue with the indifferent approach that was showed on the WitW forum after launch. After all that seemed to have worked out splendid...

I´m not going to eagerly throw my money at the next major title. And I bet I won´t be alone on that fence...You need to either up your game or cut your prizes in half. You can´t charge gold for bronze.

PS. Shame you didn´t accept my bet. Those beer would have been perfect today. All sunny and warm today!





< Message edited by JocMeister -- 5/23/2015 3:14:22 PM >

(in reply to RedLancer)
Post #: 90
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the West >> RE: Why I'm Not Buying (Yet) Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.828