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...again... - 12/6/2014 11:24:56 AM   
Alejo1968


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Well, it happened to me the same before purchasing "Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations" and "Matrix World in Flames".
The price was quite high (specially in my country), but also they were such unique games that you knew they would stay in your hard drive for years, and I mean MANY years.

So, I have my finger a couple of milimeters from the mouse button ready to press it... But would you really recommend me to purchase it? I´m not familiar with War in the East, as I never felt atracted by that front´s history, but alway wanted to simulate the west front.
I like in a game a strategic view of the conflict, but when I saw this statement it really took my attention:

"Scale is Division/Brigade/Regiment with supporting Battalions, but modeled down to the last man, tank and gun"...

I know what "modelled" means but... could this be a game that gives you enough info to let you imaging a Tank platoon about to be engaged by the enemy?. I mean, I not only like to step in the commander's place, but the soldier who follows its orders too. If a game gives me such detail, then insta purchase.

I think this could be that kind of game, but I need some help to press the button.
So, based in yout experience, what do you think about it?
Any advise would be of great help.

One more thing, do you think this is a better system than that of The Operational Art of War?


< Message edited by Abbeville_01 -- 12/6/2014 12:28:29 PM >
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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 11:48:14 AM   
zakblood


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that's a hard one, as i've not seen any info on the modelled down to the last man, tank and gun so would have to wait for others to post to make a more informed guess

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 11:52:19 AM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

I know what "modelled" means but... could this be a game that gives you enough info to let you imaging a Tank platoon about to be engaged by the enemy?. I mean, I not only like to step in the commander's place, but the soldier who follows its orders too. If a game gives me such detail, then insta purchase.

Instead of counters representing a whole unit, the unit is composed by single elements of the TOE that are the blocks of the combat resolution (if I'm describing it correctly). Thus every unit has a defined number of men, guns or tanks. This screen here shows how a unit with their elements is composed:


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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 11:56:38 AM   
Jim D Burns


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Unit combat abilities are not simply numbers on a counter, instead units are made up of equipment items that combined together make up the formations abilities in combat. So individual items are modeled, but this is an operational game and not as tactical as you are thinking. Battles are detailed but it all takes place behind the scenes, what you see is the final result of the battle laid out in casualty counts and odds ratios.

Jim


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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 11:59:51 AM   
Alejo1968


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Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:01:44 PM   
SigUp

 

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Divisions can be further broken down into regiments. The smallest unit that is represented as an on-map counter is the regiment. Individual (separate) battalions and companies also exist, but they are attached as support units to HQs or divisions.

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:03:37 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Yes, you can divide divisions into regiments/brigades. The game also goes down to the battalion level for support units, which can be attached/detached from larger units (up to three per division).

Combat resolution can also be watched down to the individual squad or tank shooting, but for most the detailed summary of what each squad/tank/gun did is enough information. There are multiple levels of combat resolution though so that you can find the one that you like best.

Regards,

- Erik


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CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:05:56 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers



Most units can be divided into three. But units smaller than a brigade or regiment will be treated as support units and listed off map as a support unit on another units card. So for example let’s assume I divide an on-map armor brigade into three.

I will then have 3 units listed in the HQ’s support units list named 1/unit name, 2/unit name and 3/unit name. These three units can be left in the HQ’s support list and will be added to combats or not during turn execution based on leader commitment die rolls, or I can attach the units individually to an on map division and they will be intrinsic parts of that division for all purposes until I decide to pull them off the divisions card.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 12/6/2014 1:13:12 PM >


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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:12:46 PM   
Alejo1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Unit combat abilities are not simply numbers on a counter, instead units are made up of equipment items that combined together make up the formations abilities in combat. So individual items are modeled, but this is an operational game and not as tactical as you are thinking. Battles are detailed but it all takes place behind the scenes, what you see is the final result of the battle laid out in casualty counts and odds ratios.

Jim



No, dont get me wrong, I know its not tactical.
I just would like it to tell me there is acompany of sherman tanks (amongst other resources) engaging Pz IVHs, in open terrain, in mud conditions, etc... that kind of info. This way you get a "visual" idea of what is happening on the ground, which helps immersion and not only becomes mathematical calculations. I dont want to control them, I just would like to have deeper presentation of the outcome of the ground battle, in a clearer way than most games usually offer us...



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Post #: 9
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:18:30 PM   
Alejo1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, you can divide divisions into regiments/brigades. The game also goes down to the battalion level for support units, which can be attached/detached from larger units (up to three per division).

Combat resolution can also be watched down to the individual squad or tank shooting, but for most the detailed summary of what each squad/tank/gun did is enough information. There are multiple levels of combat resolution though so that you can find the one that you like best.

Regards,

- Erik



Thanks Erik, guess this is exactly what I was looking for.
Jim, Sigup, thanks for taking the time to enilghten me.

S!

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Post #: 10
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:19:17 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Unit combat abilities are not simply numbers on a counter, instead units are made up of equipment items that combined together make up the formations abilities in combat. So individual items are modeled, but this is an operational game and not as tactical as you are thinking. Battles are detailed but it all takes place behind the scenes, what you see is the final result of the battle laid out in casualty counts and odds ratios.

Jim



No, dont get me wrong, I know its not tactical.
I just would like it to tell me there is acompany of sherman tanks (amongst other resources) engaging Pz IVHs, in open terrain, in mud conditions, etc... that kind of info. This way you get a "visual" idea of what is happening on the ground, which helps immersion and not only becomes mathematical calculations. I dont want to control them, I just would like to have deeper presentation of the outcome of the ground battle, in a clearer way than most games usually offer us...




This is from WITE, WITW should work similarly. It's a combat resolution on the highest message settings. You can watch a single battle for a pretty long time using those settings:




Attachment (1)

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 12:37:12 PM   
Alejo1968


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That pretty much answers my question, a single small unit and its target (and the outcome of the engagement), presented in an Strategic/operational level wargame.

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Post #: 12
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 1:52:24 PM   
Alejo1968


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Up and running, thanks for the help!

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Post #: 13
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 3:29:34 PM   
wodin


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Your looking for a different scale wargame I feel. Something maybe at Coy level.

Immersion of the type your after is a very difficult thing to obtain from this scale wargame. I found Decisive Campaigns to have it more than most and DC 3 looks like it will have it in spades.

It is a bonus that for wargamers like me and you things are modeled down to the individual unit however again at this scale I'm not so sure it helps that much to the sort of immersion your after.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers



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Post #: 14
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 3:30:53 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01
Up and running, thanks for the help!


Great, enjoy!

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Alejo1968)
Post #: 15
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 4:48:08 PM   
FroBodine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

Is it possible to dettach/divide units? If yes, which is the lowest level? ...maybe batallion, company?

And thanks for the answers



Most units can be divided into three. But units smaller than a brigade or regiment will be treated as support units and listed off map as a support unit on another units card. So for example let’s assume I divide an on-map armor brigade into three.

I will then have 3 units listed in the HQ’s support units list named 1/unit name, 2/unit name and 3/unit name. These three units can be left in the HQ’s support list and will be added to combats or not during turn execution based on leader commitment die rolls, or I can attach the units individually to an on map division and they will be intrinsic parts of that division for all purposes until I decide to pull them off the divisions card.

Jim



Does the manual explain exactly how to do this for a newbie - how to divide an on-map unit into smaller units, and how to attach those units from the HQ support list to another on map division?

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Post #: 16
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 4:51:16 PM   
FroBodine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbeville_01

I know what "modelled" means but... could this be a game that gives you enough info to let you imaging a Tank platoon about to be engaged by the enemy?. I mean, I not only like to step in the commander's place, but the soldier who follows its orders too. If a game gives me such detail, then insta purchase.

Instead of counters representing a whole unit, the unit is composed by single elements of the TOE that are the blocks of the combat resolution (if I'm describing it correctly). Thus every unit has a defined number of men, guns or tanks. This screen here shows how a unit with their elements is composed:




Does this game have tooltips for everything? So for example, in this image, if I hover over EXP, RDY, DAM or FAT, is there a tooltip that explains what these mean? Or, are they at least explained in the manual? Tooltips solve so many frustrations in games for people trying to learn what all the numbers mean.

Thanks!

< Message edited by jglazier -- 12/6/2014 5:52:02 PM >

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 6:36:41 PM   
cmunson


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There are many tool tips present in the game but the items you specifically mention don't have them since they are just column headings. They stand for Experience, Ready, Damaged and Fatigue.

With an experience of 85 this is a well trained, high morale unit (higher numbers better). Ready is just the number of elements available for action (e.g, 189 .30 cal mg's). This unit is full strength as the TOE 100/100 indicates (100%). The unit has low fatigue (lower numbers better) so won't have any movement or combat penalties.

Yes, the manual is very detailed and there are lots of screen shots in it with all the elements explained.

< Message edited by chris.munson -- 12/6/2014 7:37:59 PM >


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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 7:53:50 PM   
FroBodine


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1. Column headings is exactly where there SHOULD be tooltips. Especially with abbreviated column headings. A tooltip explaining what each item means, exactly as you described them, goes a long way in helping new players. Like EXP - 85 is good, but out of what? Is the highest 100? And RDY - knowing I have 36 rifle squads doesn't help me unless I know out of how many total? And FAT - what is the scale? 0-10 with 0 being no fatigue? Are these things explained in the manual, please? If there were tooltips right there detailing this, the problem would be solved.

2. Does the manual go into detail about breaking up and transferring units as Jim Burns explained above - how to divide an on-map unit into smaller units, and how to attach those units from the HQ support list to another on map division?

I am still deciding if this game is for me, so all these little details about user-friendliness and manual detail will help me make my decision.

Thank you for the response.

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RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 8:20:05 PM   
RedLancer


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All the questions you ask are explained in the manual and the important ones in the Handbook. Some of the answers are simple like dividing units is hotkey-B and recombining them is the same. Others are more complicated. There is so much to know there have been times in development I've forgotten things.

I'll not flannel you - this game is complex and as you dig into the detail you learn more. Knowing things like the Experience, Fatigue and number of Ready elements in a Unit won't stop you attacking with it but may stop you winning. The game is like playing the stock market or drinking wine. Buying shares and drinking wine are easy. Making money and knowing a good bottle are a different issue.



_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

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Post #: 20
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 8:23:36 PM   
Joel Billings


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There is a lot in the manual about breaking down units. Below is an excerpt without the screenshots. There'a another section detailing support units that are attached to HQs and on map combat units. This is probably more than you want, but it does explain breaking down the units. Also, as for tooltips, there are a lot of them, but they aren't everywhere. There is a commander's report screen with various tabs that allow you to view all kinds of info and take many actions quickly. This screen has a lot of tooltips for the column headers, but I can't say there is always a tool tip. If there isn't, you should be able to look up the specific window in the manual and it should give you all the info you need. Each screen has a section in the Appendix.


7.5.3. Combat Unit Buildup, Breakdown
and Merging
Certain combat units can be built up into larger
formations or broken down into smaller units. In addition,
an equivalent size or smaller combat unit can be merged
into another combat unit of the same type, eliminating
the former and strengthening the latter. Units building
up or merging must
be in the same hex in
movement mode. Unit
buildup or breakdown
is accomplished by
selecting the unit(s)
and then either left
clicking the buildup/
breakdown button on
the map information
tool bar (5.1.2.1) or
using the hotkey ‘b’.
Breakdowns cannot
exceed stacking
limitations, so
combat units can only
breakdown if they
are the only unit in
the hex. Routed and
frozen units cannot
buildup, breakdown,
or merge.

7.5.3.1. Unit Breakdown and Buildup
Certain divisions can breakdown into three regimental
equivalent combat units numbered 1/2/3. The same
three sub-units can be built back up into a division if
they are in the same hex. Broken down divisions with
regiments designated 1/2/3 may assign one support
unit to each regiment. When the parent division is first
broken down, any attached support units will be divided
up one per regiment. If the parent division is reformed,
all support units attached to the 1/2/3 regiments will
once again be attached to the parent division. Note
that some Allied divisions will breakdown into three
brigades rather than regiments.
7.5.3.2. Rules for Regimental and Brigade
Size Units
Combat units smaller than a division, to include broken
down units, do not take control of hexes in their ZOC,
just hexes that they move through (6.3.3). These
regimental/brigade size units pay one additional MP
when moving into an enemy hex. Numbered (1/2/3)
regiments or brigades broken down will be bordered
in blue on the map area when one or more of the
broken down units from the same larger unit has been
selected.
7.5.3.3. Merging Units
Under certain circumstances, two combat units of
the same type can merge together, resulting in one
stronger unit. In order to merge, there must be another
unit of the same type (infantry, armour, motorized,
etc.) in the hex. The merging unit must be of smaller or
equal size to the gaining unit. For example, a brigade
could merge into another brigade, division or corps,
but a division could not merge into a brigade. In order
to merge, the sum of the ready ground elements of the
two units cannot exceed 100 percent of the TOE of the
unit that will remain. If the merging unit is a smaller
size unit, than only one third of its TOE percentage
counts. For example, if a brigade with 90 percent
of its TOE was merging into a Corps with 70 percent
TOE, the sum would still meet the requirement as 90
divided by 3 would be 30, which added to 70 is just
100. When the merge is completed, all elements of the
merging unit will be placed in the gaining unit, and the
merging unit is considered destroyed and permanently
removed from the game. Merging is accomplished by
selecting the ‘MERGE’ link in the detail window of the
combat unit (26.3.14) that will be merging with the
other combat unit.
7.6. Multi-Role Units
Multi-Role units are units that can change during the
game from an “on map” combat Unit to a support
unit. In order to convert from a combat unit to a
support unit, the unit must be stacked with the HQ
unit to which it is attached. ‘Convert’ then becomes
a selectable option on the unit’s detail window. Once
the unit is a support Unit it may be attached directly
to another combat unit. When attached to a unit or
HQ unit as a support unit, it may convert to an on
map combat unit if it would not cause an overstack
situation. When it converts to a combat unit, it will
be placed in the hex with the HQ unit and will have
one movement point remaining. When a multi-role
unit converts to a support unit, it is flagged with
an asterisk and will not be able to be reassigned
elsewhere during the current turn. Multi-Role units
cannot convert while embarked/loaded on ships or
trains. Some Multi-Role units will be split into three
equal units when they are converted to support units
and will be designated Multi-Role/3 on their unit
detail window. All three parts of the multi-role unit
must be attached to the same HQ or combat unit in
order for the unit to be converted back into a combat
unit. Broken down regiments and brigades will display
as battalion sized units.
Ranger, Commando and SSF multi-role units that are
attached directly to an amphibious HQ unit executing
an amphibious invasion have the capability of making a
special “supporting” landing (16.7.2).
Multi-Role units that arrive as reinforcements will be
placed on the map as a combat unit (19.1.1) rather than
attached to an HQ unit as a support unit.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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Post #: 21
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 8:25:20 PM   
FroBodine


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Thank you, my friend. That is indeed good to know. Looks like I'm in trouble, then, because I know next to nothing about the stock market, and I prefer gin.

Thank you very much, Joel. I saw your posting after I wrote this. I was just focusing on this topic to illustrate my concern about how detailed the manual is about the mechanics. This is good to know.

-=Jeff

< Message edited by jglazier -- 12/6/2014 9:30:22 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 8:28:16 PM   
cmunson


Posts: 6238
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From: Austin, Texas
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The manual is over 300 pages. You will find all the detail you could ever ask for about breaking up units or any other topic (as Joel illustrates above). The screens display a lot of data and I suspect players would complain if they had large paragraph size tool tips to contend with covering up data. Matrix and 2by3 support their games 100% and many suggestions posted on these forums get incorporated into later versions so if you buy the game and still feel like you need more tooltips I'm sure you will get a fair listen.

I was a beta tester and many user interface tips from us, the gamers, were incorporated into the game.

I assume from yours posts you have not bought a 2by3 game before so apologies if I didn't answer your question. As a long time player of their games I probably was not looking at it from your perspective.

If you like war gaming I don't see how you could not like this game. Here is 1 page from 300+ in the manual. It is well laid out and has many cross references.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by chris.munson -- 12/6/2014 9:34:23 PM >


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Chris

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Post #: 23
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 8:37:34 PM   
FroBodine


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From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
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Thank you too, Chris. You are correct, this will be my first 2by3 game. This will be an excellent Christmas gift from my wife!

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Post #: 24
RE: ...again... - 12/6/2014 9:09:18 PM   
cmunson


Posts: 6238
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From: Austin, Texas
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Merry Christmas and good gaming.

_____________________________

Chris

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