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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 5:33:55 PM   
Dr. Foo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

They have said it is possible for Germany to win.

If the 1941 North Africa module was out, you could possibly have the over 200,000 experienced Axis troops captured in 42 to use.

Its too bad a what if campaign was in the game where the Axis had those 200,000 troops abandoned in North Africa to use.

You could probably add them with the editor.


Yeah, I am waiting for a North Africa mod! It's good to know that the Axis can win. I'll probably play this game at first as Allies and then give Germany a try.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 6:58:48 PM   
jnpoint


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Status: offline 		I agree with you in two aspect. The Graphics are not great for a game in 2014, and I miss production, although you can control some aspects of production. But the more I play, the more depth I find; and I love that, the micro-management part. I also had WitE, but I never loved it - after several hours of gameplay I just gave up. This one I already love more.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 7:08:46 PM   
Dr. Foo


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Status: offline 		I don't mind the graphics, if anything the more it looks like a board game the better. I wish the counters looked more like real cardboard.

I don’t like animations or sprites. I like it to be as vanilla as possible. But for those that do there should be an option to turn them on or off.


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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 7:34:01 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

I don't mind the graphics, if anything the more it looks like a board game the better. I wish the counters looked more like real cardboard.

I don’t like animations or sprites. I like it to be as vanilla as possible. But for those that do there should be an option to turn them on or off.



Graphics done right can improve a game. Done poorly they can easily destroy a otherwise well done game. Doesn't need to be sprites. The same sort of graphics from Panzercorps could work and yes a player should have option to revert to NATO style counters.


Invasions were big deals.It would be nice to see animations of invasion ships being attacked like WitP AE.

On a side note I was looking at GG in wikipedia and games he wrote. One of them is North Atlantic 86. I have fond memories of college days playing that game to death. My Mac would say things like "naaaatooo attacking Ooooscarrr suuubmarine at...."

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 12/12/2014 8:47:57 PM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 7:51:56 PM   
tevans6220

 

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Status: offline 		I'm sort of with the OP a little. The game is great but the scenarios aren't all that compelling to me. With WiTE and WiTP AE, the Axis forces can actually run wild for a year or two. In WiTW scenarios, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the Allied side will win. No running wild by the Axis here as the Allies pretty much have the initiative and keep it. There's really no back and forth as in AE or WiTE. Maybe different scenarios in the form of DLC or expansions will change things but until then it is kind of boring playing as the Allies. I've played Operation Husky at least a dozen times as the Allies and never came close to losing. Played it a couple of times as the Axis and got beat pretty badly. Played the Air War scenario. It's almost impossible to lose as the Allies. I know the game has only been out a week, but in my opinion, it needs a better variety of scenarios. North Africa, Norway and France 40 come to mind. There was a lot of back and forth in those campaigns. Punch and counterpunch. In the stage of the war that WiTW currently represents the Axis is overmatched and stays overmatched. It's not as fun as WiTE or WiTP where as the Axis you can throw your weight around but know eventually the Allies can and will turn things around.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 7:57:56 PM   
Dr. Foo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

I know the game has only been out a week, but in my opinion, it needs a better variety of scenarios. North Africa, Norway and France 40 come to mind. There was a lot of back and forth in those campaigns. Punch and counterpunch. In the stage of the war that WiTW currently represents the Axis is overmatched and stays overmatched. It's not as fun as WiTE or WiTP where as the Axis you can throw your weight around but know eventually the Allies can and will turn things around.


I agree, we definitely need France 40 and North Africa.

Also Greece would be nice plus some alt What if's the improbable but always fun what if is…OP Sealion.


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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:03:22 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

I'm sort of with the OP a little. The game is great but the scenarios aren't all that compelling to me. With WiTE and WiTP AE, the Axis forces can actually run wild for a year or two. In WiTW scenarios, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that the Allied side will win. No running wild by the Axis here as the Allies pretty much have the initiative and keep it. There's really no back and forth as in AE or WiTE. Maybe different scenarios in the form of DLC or expansions will change things but until then it is kind of boring playing as the Allies. I've played Operation Husky at least a dozen times as the Allies and never came close to losing. Played it a couple of times as the Axis and got beat pretty badly. Played the Air War scenario. It's almost impossible to lose as the Allies. I know the game has only been out a week, but in my opinion, it needs a better variety of scenarios. North Africa, Norway and France 40 come to mind. There was a lot of back and forth in those campaigns. Punch and counterpunch. In the stage of the war that WiTW currently represents the Axis is overmatched and stays overmatched. It's not as fun as WiTE or WiTP where as the Axis you can throw your weight around but know eventually the Allies can and will turn things around.


I can't disagree with what you're saying. I think if they included an alternative what if campaign where the 200,000 Africa corps troops were evacuated and available for use by the Axis or Hittler doesn't invade the Soviet Union or does invade but it goes better than it historically did you would have more variety.

On the other hand if the Germans didn't invade Russia and had all those extra troops and resources available you're talking a whole different sort of war.

Personally I like the game a lot and with 1941 and a 1939 this could easily become the best of all the monster games.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:08:01 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:12:17 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:20:51 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.
warspite1

A matter of taste of course - the latter would be palatable personally, the former not at all.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:21:00 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.


That's what Hearts of Iron is for.


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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:22:43 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.
warspite1

A matter of taste of course - the latter would be palatable personally, the former not at all.


Possibly, but there was just no way that Germany was not going to invade Russia. That's where all the desired living space was.


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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:27:21 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.
warspite1

A matter of taste of course - the latter would be palatable personally, the former not at all.


Possibly, but there was just no way that Germany was not going to invade Russia. That's where all the desired living space was.



Well if you want get anal about being historically accurate any German victory or doing better than they actually did is fantasy...it didn't happen.

SPI would always include what if scenarios, rules and situations. It was always fun to try them out from time to time.

Besides in WitP the standard operating procedure for any good IJN player is to form up his carriers and fleet into a giant death star knowing the allieds stand very little chance going against it. That's pretty ahistorical, yet is widely accepted.


< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 12/12/2014 9:39:22 PM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:27:47 PM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		In Sicily pull back to around the Volcano from the start, bring over a couple of divisions and I can make the Allies take twice as long to take Sicily. As Axis you will not conquer the map. Victory points not included, doing better than historically is winning, doing less than is losing.

The Allies are strong and have a lot of stuff, making them suffer higher casualties is key.

< Message edited by KWG -- 12/12/2014 10:00:16 PM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:29:39 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.
warspite1

A matter of taste of course - the latter would be palatable personally, the former not at all.


Possibly, but there was just no way that Germany was not going to invade Russia. That's where all the desired living space was.

Warspite1

I agree and that's why I said the former not at all.


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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:33:18 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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Status: offline 		If we do get a 39 or 41 game and linked to WitE one wonders if the Axis player will be forced to invade the Soviet Union or has the option to hold off...

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:38:39 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

If we do get a 39 or 41 game and linked to WitE one wonders if the Axis player will be forced to invade the Soviet Union or has the option to hold off...
warspite1

Yes, My mind boggles at how the game would work. MWIF for example is a game set within a historical framework but is designed for either side to win and both sides are relatively free to choose strategy. But these games (WITW and WITE) are all about realism and accurate OOB's. One wonders indeed. But then what if Case Yellow goes wrong?........

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/12/2014 9:40:16 PM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 8:43:24 PM   
Dr. Foo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

If we do get a 39 or 41 game and linked to WitE one wonders if the Axis player will be forced to invade the Soviet Union or has the option to hold off...


I like to stick to dates, i.e. this happened on this date so we go and see if things can be different from that point forward. However, I have nothing against freedom of choice, the Axis could go earlier, later or not at all. But that won't prevent the Soviet AI from attacking in 44 or whenever. The Axis player would still have to keep a large force on the border.

I like having strategic freedom in a grand war game. I was hoping for that in MWiF but that game for me is impossible to enjoy. This might never be the grand game I want either, but there is so much potential I hope they consider it.


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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:08:19 PM   
mesquite5

 

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Status: offline 		I would love to see some what if scenarios, such as "no huge Axis loss at Stalingrad", "retreat of Afrika Korps from Tunisia","victory at Stalingrad", or maybe "better handling of the Luftwaffe prior to this game." Not far fetched.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:17:32 PM   
ogre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

I don't mind the graphics, if anything the more it looks like a board game the better.



Yes...yes...YES!!!

It's not that we like the board game look, it's that the symbology itself is a superior method of conveying the information. The fact it is/was easier to produce in the old days notwithstanding. Of course, there is a small learning curve for those who are not familiar with NATO symbology. But it's extremely ergonomical from a human factors standpoint.

Those symbols allow me to look at the entire map, both fovially and peripherally, and absorb the context very rapidly. And in a game like WITW, that helps a LOT.

Our endless search for a better format...3D maps...3D imagery...stick figures...animations. Those might be OK for niche products (e.g., Panzer Corps comes to mind). But they are a big step backwards when you need to convey STRATEGIC (or high level tactical) information.

View simplicity isn't a drawback...it is a VIRTUE! Top down with NATO symbols may be old...but it's still the best IMHO.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:21:16 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		1st lesson to all game designers make sure Germany can win no matter how far fetched or how much reality needs suspended. This is a game from 1943 to 1945 off course Germany cant win by conquering London. at least I failed to research the mechanics.

The logic of Germany not invading Russia "to win" in any World War II game is nonsense. It sort of defeats the purpose "nope I want to play a sane political leader and just destroy France and England" whilst that sane political leader in the USSR will let me conquer the British Empire. Gee that game would be fun to play. I know make Neville Chamberlin invade Germany backed by that warmonger Daladier kicking the whole thing off that would be a great scenario you could have the 10 divisions of the BEF bouncing the Rhine supported by Hawker Hectors with Vickers Mk VI light tanks smashing through the Panzer Divisions, The French army could go over the top from the Maginot line and be in Munich in a week. Better still have the Poles invade Germany. Thats it thats the scenario the Poles sign a non aggression Pact with Russia who give them a free hand in Germany. England Poland and France all invade Germany, fantastic. Then when Germany stands alone the US start sending them lend lease. Who do we have the japanese Bomb England or America maybe we could start a poll in WiTP to see which side they should come in on in this scenario.



< Message edited by Smirfy -- 12/12/2014 10:22:06 PM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:45:52 PM   
sfbaytf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But a World War II game that doesn't involve Germany in the Soviet Union is a fantasy game.


A non Soviet campaign or a Germany does better than expected campaign could be added in addition to a historically accurate could all co-exist. It would give players variety to suit their tastes.
warspite1

A matter of taste of course - the latter would be palatable personally, the former not at all.


Possibly, but there was just no way that Germany was not going to invade Russia. That's where all the desired living space was.



Then one can argue that Greece and the Balkins should be off limits for any potential Allied invasion in 43+. The Americans would never tolerate it. They were suspicious of Churchill believing he was more interested in preserving empire. The other reason to recapture as much of Eastern Europe before the Soviets was something that simply didn't resonate with the American public or political and military leadership.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:52:24 PM   
tevans6220

 

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Status: offline 		A couple of alt history scenarios wouldn't be a bad idea if the scenario was plausible. Turkey or Spain immediately comes to mind. Sea Lion too. Things that could have happened but didn't. I'm certainly not asking for the game to be set up for the Axis to always have a chance to win. I'd just like some scenarios where the Allies actually have to react to the Axis and not what we have now. In WiTE and WiTP for the first year or so the Allies react to the Axis then it turns. The scenarios currently in WiTW are all about the Axis reacting to Allied moves. There's no punch, counterpunch.

I thought the editor might resolve some of that by allowing us to create scenarios from a different timeframe. But the editor is sort of crippled since it only allows us to create in the 1943 to 1945 period. Probably done to protect sales of future DLC's and expansions. Unless you go the alt history route there's just not a whole lot of reasons to use the editor right now. The historical stuff is pretty much covered and it's boring. You know the Allies are going to win the war. The best you can hope for as the Axis is to win the game on points. With WiTE and WiTP it's pretty much the same except for the fact that the Axis is trying to defend what it took when it was able to throw it's weight around. In this game the Axis is pretty much on the defensive the whole time. It makes for a boring game unless you're the Allies. We need more varied scenarios.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:54:22 PM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		...off course Germany cant win by conquering London.

I would like to send a Fallschirmjäger division on a one way ride to take care of some of those airfields in east England.

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 9:59:06 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Just have the every Chain Home radar operator is sleeping option box ticked in the 1943-45 scenario

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 10:12:30 PM   
KWG


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Spread some Jam, night jump so low no reserve chute needed. So brazen it must be equipment malfunction.

While sending out "we come in peace" radio transmissions

< Message edited by KWG -- 12/12/2014 11:25:08 PM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 10:25:50 PM   
Smirfy

 

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Status: offline 		In that case in the Fallschirmjäger unit box make sure you have teleport enabled

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 11:10:22 PM   
Dr. Foo


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Status: offline 		So I'm guessing this is too farfetched? Posted by Sabre21 in the WitE forum http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2788580



< Message edited by Dr. Foo -- 12/13/2014 12:17:14 AM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/12/2014 11:41:32 PM   
Davekhps

 

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Status: offline 		I don't think you have to go THAT far in the game to create potential "What if?" scenarios of value, there are probably plenty of (hopefully) easy options to implement within the existing game engine via the editor, or with some minor modifications to the engine itself (future DLC?).

1. Offer an option to make the EF box static-- this can reflect a far better Eastern Front campaign than historically occurred, meaning the Axis player only has to worry about keeping the Western Allies out of Berlin, and no longer has to ship stuff to the East. That's an automatic nerf right there.

2. Related: offer more forces that historically were unavailable. The above-mentioned Afrika Korps, forces freed from a theoretically successful Kursk, etc.

3. Offer an option to have a "resilient" Italy that won't surrender, but will instead fight all the way up the boot.

4. Increase German production. The Third Reich never fully mobilized its war economy to anywhere near the extent it logically could have-- what if it did?

5. Introduce "wonder weapons" en masse at an earlier date. Me-262s, Panther IIs, you name it-- ramp up those numbers in 1944 so you're facing a more advanced Reich... does that make any difference?

6. Three words: Nazi nuclear weapon. (Related: chemical weapons employment in Europe... does *that* make any difference?)

Those are just a few options off the top of my head, sure there are others.

Honestly, I too believe Germany is doomed from 1942 on, it's only a matter of time. But there still may have been opportunities to "change the game" that WitW should consider reflecting: a war-winning defeat of the Normandy invasion, a fatal political split between the Western allies and the Soviet Union, etc.

That said, the game's been out for, what, a week? Maybe the Germans can win just fine, but all you Axis players just stink?

< Message edited by Davekhps -- 12/13/2014 12:44:19 AM >

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RE: Im the only one disappointed? - 12/13/2014 12:13:12 AM   
kfmiller41


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Status: offline 		I am treating Germany's position in this game like i do Japan's in WITE-AE. You are going to get overwhelmed in the end, so winning to me is fighting the good fight and making the allies take longer. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, as some players like advancing and conquering but Germany in 43 just is not in a position to do that except locally. The joy I get out of all these games is the chance to tinker with historical outcomes. I have read about all of these campaigns since I was a kid playing boardgames like Battle for Germany, and love military history, so getting a chance to do this on a computer is worth it and these are well made games by people who do there best to make them realistic and playable. Not to many publishers doing that these days

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