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Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/14/2014 5:37:30 PM   
Dgsbdy

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 9/10/2014
Status: offline 		I am new here but I must input the fact that in my build of Command the loadouts of the various aircraft and countries involved have no basis on historical load outs or on realistic mission expectations.

I admit I haven't had much investigation but the most glaring examples I've seen are Argentinian loadouts during the Falklands and some of the Iranian aircraft load outs from the "Israel Strikes" scenario. Of course there are numerous reference articles to research there but I wonder about modern loadouts.

My complaint is most of the historical loadouts available for most nations I have investigated are literally from the "brochures" and do not reflect realistic historical war loads that were carried. I also am troubled by no Snakeye/High Drag loadouts which would increase accuracy and survivability for low alt delivery nor the heavy LDGP loadouts for Su27 types.

I don't know if the OOB's are based on Wikipedia or not but if I'm wrong I want someone to show me proof any A-4C in the Malvinas ever lifted off with a thousand pounder centerline with 2 500 pounders outboard. I have 4 aviation armorer friends from Rio Grande in the 80's that will confirm it never happened despite what you might read on Wikipedia. To get the range needed they carried 2 500 lbers and even then they needed aerial refueling. The Daggers could get away with a pair of 1000 lbers at times with drop tanks and could maintain a high speed at low level to escape quickly.
Post #: 1
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/14/2014 6:37:29 PM   
comsubpac


Posts: 114
Joined: 9/2/2014
Status: offline 		take a look at the mods and scenarios subforum where you can find threads about the database and even contribute yourself.

(in reply to Dgsbdy)
Post #: 2
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/14/2014 9:49:50 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dgsbdy
I am new here but I must input the fact that in my build of Command the loadouts of the various aircraft and countries involved have no basis on historical load outs or on realistic mission expectations.

Thank you for the opinion. I'm sure you checked all or at least most of the 18582 loadouts in the current DB3000 database before making such a grandiose statement.

quote:


I admit I haven't had much investigation

...except you didn't.

quote:


My complaint is most of the historical loadouts available for most nations I have investigated are literally from the "brochures" and do not reflect realistic historical war loads that were carried.

You did notice we have a truckload of longer-range (low weapon number count) loadouts that reflect common wartime configurations, right?

quote:


I also am troubled by no Snakeye/High Drag loadouts which would increase accuracy and survivability for low alt delivery nor the heavy LDGP loadouts for Su27 types.

Looking at the DB3000 right now I see at least 145 Snakeye loadouts.

quote:


I don't know if the OOB's are based on Wikipedia or not but if I'm wrong I want someone to show me proof any A-4C in the Malvinas ever lifted off with a thousand pounder centerline with 2 500 pounders outboard.

Sure thing, we'll get right on it as soon as we have nothing more immediate.

quote:


I have 4 aviation armorer friends from Rio Grande in the 80's that will confirm it never happened despite what you might read on Wikipedia.

And we have a RN veteran of that war who saw them first-hand coming on his ship. He didn't need to consult Wikipedia.

So let's drop the attitude and we can start over.

< Message edited by Sunburn -- 12/15/2014 12:31:23 PM >

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(in reply to Dgsbdy)
Post #: 3
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 5:04:47 AM   
LuckyJim1010

 

Posts: 260
Joined: 7/6/2010
Status: offline 		Don't know what he's moaning about but I for one cannot believe you do not have those permanent flying gas stations that they have in that film 'Stealth'

And you call this game realistic.

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 4
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 5:55:05 AM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline 		…and then there's this one time a guy walks into a biker bar. Although he'd never rode a motorcycle in his life, he started bad-mouthing Harley Davidson's to the stunned patrons.

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 5
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 6:28:23 AM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dgsbdy

I am new here but I must input the fact that in my build of Command the loadouts of the various aircraft and countries involved have no basis on historical load outs or on realistic mission expectations.

I admit I haven't had much investigation but the most glaring examples I've seen are Argentinian loadouts during the Falklands and some of the Iranian aircraft load outs from the "Israel Strikes" scenario. Of course there are numerous reference articles to research there but I wonder about modern loadouts.

My complaint is most of the historical loadouts available for most nations I have investigated are literally from the "brochures" and do not reflect realistic historical war loads that were carried. I also am troubled by no Snakeye/High Drag loadouts which would increase accuracy and survivability for low alt delivery nor the heavy LDGP loadouts for Su27 types.

I don't know if the OOB's are based on Wikipedia or not but if I'm wrong I want someone to show me proof any A-4C in the Malvinas ever lifted off with a thousand pounder centerline with 2 500 pounders outboard. I have 4 aviation armorer friends from Rio Grande in the 80's that will confirm it never happened despite what you might read on Wikipedia. To get the range needed they carried 2 500 lbers and even then they needed aerial refueling. The Daggers could get away with a pair of 1000 lbers at times with drop tanks and could maintain a high speed at low level to escape quickly.


You said you are new here, so just small words of advice:

Please take just a few minutes to peruse the different forums within CMANO. You will find many contributors here (such as myself) who've done and seen what is simulated in this program. Aircrew members, sub and ship crew, industry reps who design and build the equipment simulated in this program, from various nationalities, who have, in both peace and war, saw firsthand the type of operations represented in this simulation.

Our input to this program has, and still is, soaked up by the creators of this wonderful program, and tweak it so that it will simulate (better than anything available in the open market and probably the classified world) "Modern Air/Naval Operations".

Read through these forums and you will frequently find such inputs as "As a pilot on XX aircraft, we would…" and "back in the 80's when I served aboard XX attack submarine, we had the capability to…"

The authors of this sim are not some weekend ametures who just wrote a program from some info from Janes and watched "Top Gun".

For the record, I served four years as an aircraft mechanic and 16 years as an intelligence analyst, mission planner, and weapons and targeting specialist (e.g. I determined what type of weapon should be loaded on what platform to hit what target) in the US Air Force and have done the job in combat. And my experience doesn't even begin to hold a candle to the knowledge, experience, and expertise of some of the members on here.



(in reply to Dgsbdy)
Post #: 6
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 6:42:26 AM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline
quote:


Aircrew members, sub and ship crew, industry reps who design and build the equipment simulated in this program, from various nationalities, who have, in both peace and war, saw firsthand the type of operations represented in this simulation.


Can I get a roll call of experience up in here?

(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 7
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 7:41:19 AM   
.Sirius


Posts: 1404
Joined: 1/18/2013
Status: offline 		Hi my experience is over 35 years service in the Royal Navy and still serving experience is the Falklands War as 20mm aimer on HMS Plymouth both Gulf Wars, Former Yugoslavia Conflict and numourous other things which dont appear in the press, my qualifications are ex Aircraft Controller including Forward Air Controller, Radar and Weapons Systems Director including Datalinks



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(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 8
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 4:55:26 PM   
AFIntel


Posts: 157
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Saginaw, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi my experience is over 35 years service in the Royal Navy and still serving experience is the Falklands War as 20mm aimer on HMS Plymouth both Gulf Wars, Former Yugoslavia Conflict and numourous other things which dont appear in the press, my qualifications are ex Aircraft Controller including Forward Air Controller, Radar and Weapons Systems Director including Datalinks




Man, I'd love to buy you some beers and pick your brain!

(in reply to .Sirius)
Post #: 9
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 5:05:06 PM   
batek688

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 10/16/2014
Status: offline 		I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express

(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 10
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 8:31:54 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1529
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFIntel

…and then there's this one time a guy walks into a biker bar. Although he'd never rode a motorcycle in his life, he started bad-mouthing Harley Davidson's to the stunned patrons.


well i think this is ok.. however ive been riding like 45 years... he may be gifted with refined instincts.....

(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 11
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 8:35:38 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1529
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFIntel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dgsbdy

I am new here but I must input the fact that in my build of Command the loadouts of the various aircraft and countries involved have no basis on historical load outs or on realistic mission expectations.

I admit I haven't had much investigation but the most glaring examples I've seen are Argentinian loadouts during the Falklands and some of the Iranian aircraft load outs from the "Israel Strikes" scenario. Of course there are numerous reference articles to research there but I wonder about modern loadouts.

My complaint is most of the historical loadouts available for most nations I have investigated are literally from the "brochures" and do not reflect realistic historical war loads that were carried. I also am troubled by no Snakeye/High Drag loadouts which would increase accuracy and survivability for low alt delivery nor the heavy LDGP loadouts for Su27 types.

I don't know if the OOB's are based on Wikipedia or not but if I'm wrong I want someone to show me proof any A-4C in the Malvinas ever lifted off with a thousand pounder centerline with 2 500 pounders outboard. I have 4 aviation armorer friends from Rio Grande in the 80's that will confirm it never happened despite what you might read on Wikipedia. To get the range needed they carried 2 500 lbers and even then they needed aerial refueling. The Daggers could get away with a pair of 1000 lbers at times with drop tanks and could maintain a high speed at low level to escape quickly.


You said you are new here, so just small words of advice:

Please take just a few minutes to peruse the different forums within CMANO. You will find many contributors here (such as myself) who've done and seen what is simulated in this program. Aircrew members, sub and ship crew, industry reps who design and build the equipment simulated in this program, from various nationalities, who have, in both peace and war, saw firsthand the type of operations represented in this simulation.

Our input to this program has, and still is, soaked up by the creators of this wonderful program, and tweak it so that it will simulate (better than anything available in the open market and probably the classified world) "Modern Air/Naval Operations".

Read through these forums and you will frequently find such inputs as "As a pilot on XX aircraft, we would…" and "back in the 80's when I served aboard XX attack submarine, we had the capability to…"

The authors of this sim are not some weekend ametures who just wrote a program from some info from Janes and watched "Top Gun".

For the record, I served four years as an aircraft mechanic and 16 years as an intelligence analyst, mission planner, and weapons and targeting specialist (e.g. I determined what type of weapon should be loaded on what platform to hit what target) in the US Air Force and have done the job in combat. And my experience doesn't even begin to hold a candle to the knowledge, experience, and expertise of some of the members on here.





whata guy.... it is stunning here.. i do agree.....

(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 12
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/15/2014 10:05:12 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFIntel
quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius
Hi my experience is over 35 years service in the Royal Navy and still serving experience is the Falklands War as 20mm aimer on HMS Plymouth both Gulf Wars, Former Yugoslavia Conflict and numourous other things which dont appear in the press, my qualifications are ex Aircraft Controller including Forward Air Controller, Radar and Weapons Systems Director including Datalinks

Man, I'd love to buy you some beers and pick your brain!


Feel free on the beers but I got dibs on his brain. Got the formaldehyde jar prepped in fact.

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(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 13
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/16/2014 6:49:11 PM   
CV60


Posts: 992
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline 		I can't speak to whether any Argentine A-4C used the loadout you suggest, but here is photographic evidence that USN carrier based A-4C's lifted such a load. The image is of a USN A-4C in 1966. Its hard to tell, (and assuming loading is completed) but it looks like it is carrying at least 6 high-drag Mk 81 250 pound bombs in the centerline, although the two rightmost (from the viewer perspective) centerline bombs may be Mk 82s, which makes sense, as it would balance the load. The larger outboard bombs appear to be Mk. 83s. This aircraft then is carrying at least 3500 pounds of bombs (1500 pounds in centerline), and possibly 4,000 pounds, ie, the maximum load of an A-4C. I haven't found the range figures for this loadout, but according to
https://books.google.com/books?id=Oa-79lNvSEEC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=Range+of+A-4C+with+maximum+bomb+load&source=bl&ots=bRhQ6-uvbS&sig=xlaabNJShiCBzGDh8mbDaTHgjeE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=to6QVIHWBoGoyASmooDIDA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Range%20of%20A-4C%20with%20maximum%20bomb%20load&f=false

the A-4M had a range of 340 nm with a 4000 pound payload, so tanking would be required in a Falklands-island scenario. However, such a load was possible, and in fact used in combat by the USN.
quote:

I don't know if the OOB's are based on Wikipedia or not but if I'm wrong I want someone to show me proof any A-4C in the Malvinas ever lifted off with a thousand pounder centerline with 2 500 pounders outboard. I have 4 aviation armorer friends from Rio Grande in the 80's that will confirm it never happened despite what you might read on Wikipedia. To get the range needed they carried 2 500 lbers and even then they needed aerial refueling. The Daggers could get away with a pair of 1000 lbers at times with drop tanks and could maintain a high speed at low level to escape quickly.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by CV60 -- 12/16/2014 8:07:32 PM >

(in reply to Dgsbdy)
Post #: 14
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/17/2014 12:23:14 AM   
ultradave


Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline 		For the experience roll call:

For me: 29 years designing and testing US Navy nuclear submarines. Involved in reactor testing of 688s and OHIOs design of SEAWOLF, VIRGINIA, CVN78, and first of class test program of VIRGINIA. Plus my Army prior service included a nuclear weapons secondary specialty.

The amount of first hand knowledge here is really amazing. It's fun to just sit back and absorb all the information that is freely given. Great stuff. Most of it well outside my area of expertise (I know subs but don't know much about aircraft except the basics).

EDIT: Oh, and forgot to add, several years in England as a consultant to the RN working on their sub designs (at BAE and Rolls-Royce), so I know a bit about ASTUTE, a little about VANGUARD and a lot about the upcoming VANGUARD SUCCESSOR.

Cheers!

< Message edited by ultradave -- 12/17/2014 1:28:10 AM >

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(in reply to CV60)
Post #: 15
RE: Realistic Aircraft Loadouts - 12/18/2014 5:59:54 PM   
Cafe


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/9/2010
Status: offline 		I work with a Falklands veteran who was at the sharp end of an A-4 run (he tells me they were A-4Qs, not A4Cs, despite what you read in wikipedia).

His ship, the Argonaut, was penetrated by a 1000 lber (British made and didn't explode) and a 750 lber aft that went in under the hangar with a third bomb, another 750 lber, that bounced over the fore end of the vessel. All from the one aircraft. The Argonaut lost two men that day, but successfully made it back to the UK.

BTW Paul (aka .Sirius), my mate says "Thanks" ;)

Cafe

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(in reply to AFIntel)
Post #: 16
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