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Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/6/2015 5:24:14 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		When looking over submarine sonars you find most are set for surface & submarine search. But surface vessel sonars, including passive towed arrays, are only set for submarine search.

Is this an accurate assessment? Do surface vessels ever use their passive sonars to detect and classify surface contacts? Depending on the set sensitivity and sonar situation (CZs), it seems like a valid OTH detection method.
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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/6/2015 8:13:56 PM   
magi

 

Posts: 1529
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		Good question..... It would seem like they would process all sonic events that they pick up…

< Message edited by magi -- 1/6/2015 9:14:40 PM >

(in reply to Primarchx)
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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 3:59:54 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		They should be able to pickup surface contacts too beyond visual range even.

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 4:09:07 PM   
gbethel

 

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Joined: 10/22/2014
Status: offline 		SONAR in game can detect a sub on the surface. Why not a ship?

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 7:41:31 PM   
magi

 

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Status: offline 		That's a good point.....

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 8:20:44 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I has been asked from devs.

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 9:00:04 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		I remember from old Harpoon discussions that surface noise is so great that sonar detection from ship to ship had very limited range. Not sure where or who the comment came from.

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 10:20:51 PM   
Primarchx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I remember from old Harpoon discussions that surface noise is so great that sonar detection from ship to ship had very limited range. Not sure where or who the comment came from.


That's what I was wondering and I could see a situation where a bow-mounted sonar, even one capable of monitoring CZs, might be optimized for sub detection and not helpful for surface search. However, the difference between where a ship and a sub's towed arrays lay seem virtually the same and you would think they pick up the same set of signals, sub or surface.

BTW, I'm not lobbying for this in-game, per se. I'm sure the signal processing overhead would be significant. I'm just wondering what the tactical utility of sonar has been in the surface warfare arena.

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/7/2015 11:10:28 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
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Status: offline 		Hi guys,

We're researching to find out if there are cases where this is actually done.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 1/8/2015 12:11:00 AM >

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 12:07:29 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		It might be an issue when vessels are not emitting.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 1/8/2015 1:08:20 AM >

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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 4:59:36 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I thought I saw this a little while ago...doesn't answer the question directly, but shows some of the issues.

from page 107 in the manual about sea state effects:

"Surface ducting is useless in high waves
and sonar ranges at or near the surface are severely degraded. High
waves also raise the minimum safe altitude for low-flying aircraft"

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 11
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 5:32:32 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		Degraded doesn't mean impossible though. Many ships have towed arrays that can be down quite a distance and there are also sonobuoys, dipping sonar, etc... If they can hear a sub my guess is that they can hear surface vessels too.

< Message edited by StellarRat -- 1/8/2015 6:33:30 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 12
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 5:34:30 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		I'd be interesting if TASS/VDS could detect surface targets further than other ship's passive sensors. If it is so, that might be for request for small improvement.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 6:02:16 PM   
thewood1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Degraded doesn't mean impossible though. Many ships have towed arrays that can be down quite a distance and there are also sonobuoys, dipping sonar, etc... If they can hear a sub my guess is that they can hear surface vessels too.


There are two ships involved here though. The degradtion might not just be on the hunter's end. I would imagine surface noise plays a role on both sides.

(in reply to StellarRat)
Post #: 14
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 7:56:44 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

Degraded doesn't mean impossible though. Many ships have towed arrays that can be down quite a distance and there are also sonobuoys, dipping sonar, etc... If they can hear a sub my guess is that they can hear surface vessels too.


There are two ships involved here though. The degradtion might not just be on the hunter's end. I would imagine surface noise plays a role on both sides.

True. But, what if the surface ship is moving along at dead slow hunting for subs? It's not going to making much noise of it's own obviously. I'd be willing to bet it will hear surface contacts at quite a distance. Subs can hear surface contacts a periscope depth, in fact, if they're below the layer hearing surface ships gets much harder.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 15
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 8:16:29 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
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Status: offline 		I am no sonar expert, but I practiced mechanical engineering for 20 years, specializing in fluid dynamics as applied to high temp viscous bodies. I can tell you that in any fluid, as you near the surface interface, surface tension and disruptions play havoc with all sensor readings. That is my only thought. When we ran dimensionless tests, all readings had to be taken x distance from any surface interface. So I was just throwing out an educated guess.

(in reply to StellarRat)
Post #: 16
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/8/2015 9:46:20 PM   
navwarcol

 

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Status: offline 		Generally as well, the towed arrays are picking up sounds from their side of the layer (below it) not from the other side where surface ships would be. The layer usually acts almost as a wall, so that you can listen "below" (as most long towed arrays would be by virtue of their 'longness') or "above" which would seldom be used since mostly you are hunting for subsurface contacts.

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Post #: 17
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/9/2015 9:24:17 AM   
.Sirius


Posts: 1404
Joined: 1/18/2013
Status: offline 		Hi guys,
going on experience with the UK towed array Type 2031 I and Z versions we would pick up two type of contact Broadband which is surface ship traffic and Narrow Band Submarine contact this is based on the Hz level the array picks up, this is dependant on array depth but you using pick up surface ship traffic anyway, this goes for Hull mounted sonars too in the passive mode dependant on ship speed weather and water conditions especially on type 2050 active passive sonar using the CZs etc
quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

Generally as well, the towed arrays are picking up sounds from their side of the layer (below it) not from the other side where surface ships would be. The layer usually acts almost as a wall, so that you can listen "below" (as most long towed arrays would be by virtue of their 'longness') or "above" which would seldom be used since mostly you are hunting for subsurface contacts.



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Old radar men never die - Their echoes fade away in accordance with the inverse fourth power law

(in reply to navwarcol)
Post #: 18
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/9/2015 12:09:01 PM   
mikmykWS

 

Posts: 11524
Joined: 3/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'd say that settles that. Adding item to our list.

Mike

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Post #: 19
RE: Surface Vessel Sonars - Sub search only? - 1/9/2015 5:52:21 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: .Sirius

Hi guys,
going on experience with the UK towed array Type 2031 I and Z versions we would pick up two type of contact Broadband which is surface ship traffic and Narrow Band Submarine contact this is based on the Hz level the array picks up, this is dependant on array depth but you using pick up surface ship traffic anyway, this goes for Hull mounted sonars too in the passive mode dependant on ship speed weather and water conditions especially on type 2050 active passive sonar using the CZs etc
quote:

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

Generally as well, the towed arrays are picking up sounds from their side of the layer (below it) not from the other side where surface ships would be. The layer usually acts almost as a wall, so that you can listen "below" (as most long towed arrays would be by virtue of their 'longness') or "above" which would seldom be used since mostly you are hunting for subsurface contacts.



Thanks for the information.

(in reply to .Sirius)
Post #: 20
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